2016 Postmortem

Orsino

(37,428 posts)

47. Excitement isn't everything.

Sat Dec 17, 2016, 07:56 AM

Dec 2016

I loved Sanders' agenda, and voted for it, but that doesn't mean I'm sure he would have been a "better" candidate. We don't get to find out the answer to that question, and will probably never agree on measuring sticks.

Clinton, despite the alleged excitement gap, was terrifically popular with more people, and was decades networked into the Democratic machine. She was ready to run it and run it well, even if her ideas were more old-fashioned and less progressive. She was a great candidate, but one with some convenient carrying handles for the wingnut-wranglers in the media.

Modern Dems are always out-shouted. Sanders wasn't as charismatic, and looked like a Larry David impersonation. His quiet socialism had not, over decades, peeled away the support of people of color from the powerful Clinton branding. Yet he was Benghazi-free, and had not signed onto the AUMF. His message had a window of opportunity that we chose not to use in 2016, so whatever unique hope he offered for the next presidency is gone.

People will argue forever about who would have won if this or that hadn't happened, but they're all grinding favorite axes. None of us knows.

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Bernie filled stadiums. Much as I like Hillary, she just wasn't an exciting candidate. [View all] RBInMaine Dec 2016 OP

Some serious BS with this line. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #1

And many more did not show up or went third party or to Trump. Those are just the facts. RBInMaine Dec 2016 #2

And many more voted for Clinton than Trump. Just the fact. George II Dec 2016 #10

Why? Because a Hillary nomination led to a Trump Presidency. virtualobserver Dec 2016 #54

This. nt redqueen Dec 2016 #77

THIS. is the bottom line. RazBerryBeret Dec 2016 #78

Sanders and his supporters carrying water for the Republicans led to a Trump Presidency LongtimeAZDem Dec 2016 #79

nonsense....you imagine Hillary as a fragile victim.... virtualobserver Dec 2016 #80

Not at all; Sanders supporters repeated Republican attacks as gospel, LongtimeAZDem Dec 2016 #82

I supported Sanders, and voted for Hillary in the GE. virtualobserver Dec 2016 #83

That's bullshit. The bernie or bust crew wasn't large enough to to that. The vast dionysus Dec 2016 #106

They Went 3rd Party or Not At All & We Lost otohara Dec 2016 #173

Can you prove any of that with data, and not some anecdote from JPR types? If you can actually prove dionysus Dec 2016 #176

Here otohara Dec 2016 #177

Hillary was fighting an anti-establishment head wind. Dustlawyer Dec 2016 #155

And clearly Bernie did not have a competent campaign as he couldn't even win the primary. n/t seaglass Dec 2016 #89

Bernie was a complete unknown, yet he did well...especially considering DWS's debate freeze out..... virtualobserver Dec 2016 #98

Why was he unknown if he was in Congress for 30 years and on talk radio for 10? seaglass Dec 2016 #99

He is well known now, and highly regarded, nationwide..... virtualobserver Dec 2016 #139

His 10 Years On Radio Was Effective In Demonizing Democrats otohara Dec 2016 #174

Unknown after 30 years in the Senate? sheshe2 Dec 2016 #129

He is not unknown any more....and is highly regarded...which says a lot more. virtualobserver Dec 2016 #140

Yes he is. sheshe2 Dec 2016 #143

So would a Bernie nomination jmowreader Dec 2016 #141

we know that Hillary lost.... virtualobserver Dec 2016 #161

Why? Kentonio Dec 2016 #168

4.3 million more votes in California, which we will see more of in the future, it wasn't nationally. braddy Dec 2016 #75

Re: 4.3 million more votes in California SFnomad Dec 2016 #154

If they were that fucking stupid Island Blue Dec 2016 #36

This was about issues DK504 Dec 2016 #132

So You Must Attend A Rally otohara Dec 2016 #172

They were *also* a LOT of alt-righters there that were NEVER voting for him in the general. LaydeeBug Dec 2016 #146

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #3

And some of her supporters dismissed the very idea of building enthusiasm. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #4

When has "enthusiasm" or lack thereof, ever been an issue in a Presidential election? George II Dec 2016 #13

Not an issue...a factor. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #14

I don't think "charisma" had much to do with some, if not all, of those elections. George II Dec 2016 #18

In 1976, the Democrats were going to take the White House no matter what. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #20

That is definitely not true oberliner Dec 2016 #26

Carter was thirty points ahead at one point in the summer. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #45

It was tied in October oberliner Dec 2016 #48

It was very close - Ford had bad gaffe too (saying Poland wasn't under Soviet influence) MrPurple Dec 2016 #102

I don't recall Nixon being known as the "moderate/liberal" in 1968, in fact he wasn't. braddy Dec 2016 #74

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican George II Dec 2016 #85

Nixon was not seen as the moderate/liberal candidate in 1968, and he was running against Rockefeller braddy Dec 2016 #86

What one is "seen as" and what one actually "was" are two totally different things. George II Dec 2016 #92

Nixon was not a liberal in 1968, and Rockefeller was running against him in 1968. braddy Dec 2016 #93

Compared to 1968 field, Nixon wasn't liberal. Compared to today's Rethugs, he is. MrPurple Dec 2016 #103

Very good post Ken lastone Dec 2016 #64

There's a problem with your theory mythology Dec 2016 #5

Didn't Gallup predict a Hillary win in the GE? Exilednight Dec 2016 #7

And didn't she win? yallerdawg Dec 2016 #27

Where will she be on inauguration day? Exilednight Dec 2016 #40

Gallup didnt poll the presidential race this cycle MadBadger Dec 2016 #104

Who said anything about polling? Exilednight Dec 2016 #111

No no no! We need more of the same! It's been working out so well! aidbo Dec 2016 #6

she still got more people to actually vote for her JI7 Dec 2016 #8

Sure. But considering who she was running against, it should have dionysus Dec 2016 #107

look at what congress is made up of JI7 Dec 2016 #110

Good points. Sadly, that means there's more racism and misogny out there dionysus Dec 2016 #112

It was by 3 mil votes, sheshe2 Dec 2016 #130

We both no, to gore's lament, that's not what we're talking about. dionysus Dec 2016 #138

She ran against trump, who had already defeated 16 other contenders, agains the KGB, against Comey, lunamagica Dec 2016 #160

Let's not grant trump any credit where credit is not due. And to suggest the voters were dionysus Dec 2016 #167

Yes, but by spending more time campaigning in Cali than Wisconsin, we got the Fuhrer-Elect. Not a good strategy going for the win in the popular vote. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2016 #122

Why didn't that translate into votes? George II Dec 2016 #9

It translated into far more votes than anyone expected. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #16

55+% is much more. And that "superdelegate" excuse is just that, an excuse. How many of the..... George II Dec 2016 #19

Almost all of them. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #21

You're entitled to your opinion. But I doubt you can bolster that opinion with fact. George II Dec 2016 #22

It's a fact that Bernie did far better than anyone expected. Ken Burch Dec 2016 #23

I referring to your fact that "almost all" of the 30 million people who participated.... George II Dec 2016 #24

Yet Hillary only won what was it, 4 out of all of those yellow states in the general? Autumn Dec 2016 #63

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #91

the write in is still pretty much wanting or ok with Trump as president JI7 Dec 2016 #100

Yes, let's shrink the party... perhaps we can teot out another classic like dionysus Dec 2016 #108

Your map illustrates the southern primary strategy. HassleCat Dec 2016 #117

It shows the fact that Sanders may not be as progressive as some would like to think. George II Dec 2016 #118

Or perhaps more progressive. HassleCat Dec 2016 #119

The fundamental problem is that by and large forjusticethunders Dec 2016 #158

Exactly, George.. why didn't the "big stadiums" translate Cha Dec 2016 #33

80,000 who gave Trump the E.C can barely fill a stadium themselves.. JHan Dec 2016 #58

You're missing the point. The point is, if she excited people the way bernie did, or got dionysus Dec 2016 #109

Do you really think that the GOP... SaschaHM Dec 2016 #11

neither of them are gonna run again in 4 years, so I suggest looking forward. Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #12

I like Gavin Newsom. Great pic. ms liberty Dec 2016 #162

Exactly. Because that's what leaders do. They lead. Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #163

Comey, voter suppression And Russia... Empirical factors everything else is guessing uponit7771 Dec 2016 #15

Like the DU gunner in NC who claims that's what the voters were grumbling about Nov 8..eom Kolesar Dec 2016 #56

Bernie Sanders did absolutely nothing for me, my family, and friends...nt asuhornets Dec 2016 #17

Not in my town he didn't, but the press pretended he did. ucrdem Dec 2016 #25

That is magnanimous of you RBinMaine.. Thanks. CentralMass Dec 2016 #28

Small town America and the rural areas won't vote for us we need to get the Obama coalition and the coolbreeze77 Dec 2016 #29

Ugh... Staaaaaaaaahp! Just Staaaaahp! Squinch Dec 2016 #30

Exciting is horribly overrated. stopbush Dec 2016 #31

Please stop this already. n/t rzemanfl Dec 2016 #32

+1,000,000 AgadorSparticus Dec 2016 #37

Yes. tecelote Dec 2016 #51

Bernie "filled stadiums" with white people. That's not the Democratic party, and for that I'm..... Tarheel_Dem Dec 2016 #34

Brava! sheshe2 Dec 2016 #133

Yep. His brand of economic populism became a turnoff. kcr Dec 2016 #148

Hillary's campaign was designed for her to listen to voters. Bernie's campaign oasis Dec 2016 #35

Bingo! EffieBlack Dec 2016 #60

So Hillary never made promises... TCJ70 Dec 2016 #94

It was Bernie's "pie-in-the-sky"pitch that filled the stadiums. oasis Dec 2016 #95

Pie-in-the-sky...kinda like "Hope and Change". So vague, right? N/t TCJ70 Dec 2016 #97

"Vague"? Not to those who recognize bullshit when they hear it. oasis Dec 2016 #101

HRC didn't rent stadiums, she did smaller venues and events that involved meeting with and talking synergie Dec 2016 #38

Spot on perfect analysis! EffieBlack Dec 2016 #61

BS ... it cost a LOT of money PassingFair Dec 2016 #88

Bingo. TexasMommaWithAHat Dec 2016 #156

Lol Dem2 Dec 2016 #39

A new hobby might be in order. grossproffit Dec 2016 #41

Oh bullshit. ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #42

I like this. Succinct and right on the money! justhanginon Dec 2016 #53

Bernie filled stadiums. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #43

And to put a finer point on it, voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio count even more. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2016 #114

To put an even finer point on it ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #136

Useless post/thread. For Christ's sake, please stop this. n/t VOX Dec 2016 #44

Hillary filled voting booths. Much as I liked BS, he lost the primary by millions. Hekate Dec 2016 #46

Excitement isn't everything. Orsino Dec 2016 #47

The Beatles filled stadiums, too DFW Dec 2016 #49

Well, when you are bigger than God... Kolesar Dec 2016 #57

Lennon wrote better songs DFW Dec 2016 #70

Paul McCartney had considerable activism on animal rights and climate protection Kolesar Dec 2016 #145

It's not that Hillary wasn't an exciting candidate, it's that Bernie was speaking to people's hearts Yo_Mama Dec 2016 #50

... and speaking to people's hearts is what was exciting. Just look at the faces of people at his JudyM Dec 2016 #68

I don't see the images you posted. sheshe2 Dec 2016 #134

Bernie filled the stadiums with people who didn't vote. Hillary filled the voting booths. n/t Lil Missy Dec 2016 #52

Sanders was devoid of substance: free college, should have locked up the bankers, ... Kolesar Dec 2016 #55

Difficult to be exciting when you are constantly fighting off.... democratisphere Dec 2016 #59

Bernie mostly "filled stadiums" on college campuses ...he was the cool grandpa Dream Girl Dec 2016 #62

Much as I liked Bernie Sanders at first Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #65

Yeah, but filled stadiums didn't translate into more votes for him. tammywammy Dec 2016 #66

Like with Gore I just can't answer treestar Dec 2016 #67

Spoken like an intellectual. Pity we don't have a country full of them. JudyM Dec 2016 #69

Seriously- this cult of personality shit is killing us. Enough. bettyellen Dec 2016 #72

Enjoy the Trump presidency Emilybemily Dec 2016 #71

+1 (nt) LongtimeAZDem Dec 2016 #84

Inaccurate analysis in an attempt to stoke division. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #73

If we are indeed in an era of "outsider politics", why are 98% of incumbents re-elected? guillaumeb Dec 2016 #76

absolutely spot on.... mike_c Dec 2016 #81

She was smart, she worked hard, she was honest and she was flexible. ucrdem Dec 2016 #87

Ouch! sheshe2 Dec 2016 #135

Mahalo, ucr! Cha Dec 2016 #166

Bernie Lost. Move on with your life. Hillary won the Primary and the General in popular vote. Lil Missy Dec 2016 #90

Are we supposed to learn from our mistakes, or circle the wagons and pretend they don't exist? dionysus Dec 2016 #121

Agreed. hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #128

She won. It was stolen. End of story. Lil Missy Dec 2016 #142

Well, tell yourself whatever makes you feel good. As far as bernie, he didn't dionysus Dec 2016 #144

and yours amount to "concern trolling". Lil Missy Dec 2016 #147

Yes, i am concerned your wing of the party might cause consecutive losses, the way shit is going! dionysus Dec 2016 #149

President Obama said at his recent press conference that there is no evidence that the actual vote totodeinhere Dec 2016 #164

didn't like Hillary but still voted for her formerGreenParty Dec 2016 #96

She wasn't that bad.. she did generate a lot of excitement.. but among the hardcore base. But she dionysus Dec 2016 #105

I hope they're excited about the massive shit sandwich Charles Bukowski Dec 2016 #113

Sometimes i believe that as a country, we collectively deserve what we ask for... dionysus Dec 2016 #120

This message was self-deleted by its author andym Dec 2016 #115

Enthusiasm helps, but look at the two George Bush's for examples of candidates who won andym Dec 2016 #116

So your opinion is large crowds votes..... Historic NY Dec 2016 #123

thank you DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #124

Without rehashing the primary crazycatlady Dec 2016 #125

Bernie filled stadiums, Hillary got more votes. Trump filled stadiums, Hillary got more votes. brooklynite Dec 2016 #126

Trump won. Maybe we should have gone with the guy who filled stadiums...n/t TCJ70 Dec 2016 #150

Do you want imagine Trump had no oppo to use against Sanders? brooklynite Dec 2016 #151

Did I say that? n/t TCJ70 Dec 2016 #153

When one party rigs an election, it's really not a win. underthematrix Dec 2016 #127

Utter GARBAGE. Hillary drew virtually the same number of votes as Obama 2012 pnwmom Dec 2016 #131

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #137

The DNC had 4 of it's top members resign including the chair person. What was that about? think Dec 2016 #152

Wow! LiberalFighter Dec 2016 #157

If he was so exciting, why didn't he excite people to vote? lunamagica Dec 2016 #159

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #165

Let's also not forget the huge numbers of new supporters Kentonio Dec 2016 #169

Seems excitement won out over actual ability & competence. baldguy Dec 2016 #170

As An Older Voter - Bullshit otohara Dec 2016 #171

Lots of truth here. realmirage Dec 2016 #175