2016 Postmortem

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)

57. It defies *your* reason. Other people may have different risk assessments.

Wed Feb 10, 2016, 02:03 AM

Feb 2016

A lot of people are very afraid of losing to a Republican in the fall.

Some believe the GOP is such a clown car, that any Dem will be able to trounce them.

Some believe that Hillary, as a well-known candidate with a lot of financial and political backing, is the safest choice.

Some believe this is a change election, Sanders has the right message for the times, and it would be the height of folly to support a status quo candidate like HRC, especially with the FBI investigation looming in the background.

However strongly anyone feels they "know" what the right answer is, that's their personal belief. We won't know the consequence of nominating candidate X until November, and we'll never know what would have happened if we'd gone with not-X.

I personally don't think HRC is a good choice, but it's true that Sanders' candidacy flies in the face of conventional political wisdom. Sanders needs to work hard to convince people that not only will he represent their interests, but that he's the Democratic Party's best choice for victory in November.

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I don't get this whole PoC discussion... [View all] basselope Feb 2016 OP

Your post doesn't help, it's tone deaf. JRLeft Feb 2016 #1

As is Clinton... basselope Feb 2016 #5

How the hell is that tone deaf? People claiming POC are not interested in fair pay, jobs, Live and Learn Feb 2016 #7

To be clear, the argument is that POC don't believe Sanders can deliver those things Recursion Feb 2016 #26

But Hillary's not even TRYING to push for "those things". So that's somehow "better"? nt 99th_Monkey Feb 2016 #33

I haven't heard that argument at all. I have heard people like Hillary and some DUers say that Live and Learn Feb 2016 #38

I've always said the alleged mass black support for Clinton was an illusion Recursion Feb 2016 #43

I will agree with the skepticism but it is not that he can't win. It is whether he will actually Live and Learn Feb 2016 #52

Have you ever visited the sheshe2 Feb 2016 #70

Don't ssshhh me, Sheshe. I have been to the group many times. In fact, I have been quite Live and Learn Feb 2016 #71

K sheshe2 Feb 2016 #72

I have Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #86

Passing a bill alone won't help black people, because of institutionalized racism. JRLeft Feb 2016 #35

Are you saying no steps have been made against racism? Of course they have and they start with Live and Learn Feb 2016 #42

Google the term institutionalized racism. JRLeft Feb 2016 #44

Don't need to. I am quite aware of what it means. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #48

So HOW do you expect to even begin to address it without polly7 Feb 2016 #94

Great post. PotatoChip Feb 2016 #212

Historically legislation has generally been the last step, not the first (nt) Recursion Feb 2016 #45

I certainly disagree! nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #50

That's not actually true. Millennials are just about as racist as their parents. gollygee Feb 2016 #87

It's NOT that they are "not interested"--- John Poet Feb 2016 #75

I agree that justice system reform is a big issue that needs to be addressed and it is one I Live and Learn Feb 2016 #77

We (white liberals) need to do better at avoiding being preachy, John Poet Feb 2016 #80

Funny, the ones I have seen being preachy are mainly white Hillary supporters on DU. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #82

No! Bernie Sanders supporters have been disgusting patronizing. Many borderline racists. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #224

Not the way I see it. Good luck on making the correct choice. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #226

I've followed Bernie Sanders' career for many years. I know his platform well. I'm leaning Sanders, Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #236

And yet Hillary surrogate former Philly Mayor Nutter today condemned Sanders for talking about Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #144

I don't say 'he only talks economics', and certainly not anymore. John Poet Feb 2016 #147

A black, Hillary supporting former mayor. And it was just today, while you are saying that's what he Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #156

That's just weird. John Poet Feb 2016 #158

Hey man Glamrock Feb 2016 #160

That is completely false. Vattel Feb 2016 #172

^^^This. artislife Feb 2016 #32

well, it was explained that Hillary is more likely to protect Obama's legacy. grasswire Feb 2016 #2

Bernie hasn't "threatened" Obama's legacy in any real way. basselope Feb 2016 #9

Exactly, Bernie will build on his legacy. Hillary will let it stagnate and rot away. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #12

How will Sanders build on it when everything depends on some sort of revolution? Gothmog Feb 2016 #191

Revolutions ARE real world solutions. Attempting to negotiate with the right wing is an exercise in Live and Learn Feb 2016 #207

I found these comments from Barney Frank to be appropriate Gothmog Feb 2016 #190

Excellent post Gothmog. Solid. (eom) oasis Feb 2016 #205

That is complete bull. Sanders HAS given Obama credit for the ACA. Wanting to improve upon it Live and Learn Feb 2016 #209

Sanders said that the ACA is not good enough for him and wants to replace it Gothmog Feb 2016 #210

He wants to IMPROVE it by expanding Medicare for everyone. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #211

Proposing a plan that will never be adopted is not productive Gothmog Feb 2016 #222

Proposing nothing and expecting to be elected is just ridiculous. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #223

I could not have stated this any better! Simply brilliant!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #225

When it comes to foreign affairs it's actually Bernie that will protect Obama's legacy. jillan Feb 2016 #49

she's just saying that to appeal to POC; the reality is she has worked against his legacy and derail amborin Feb 2016 #121

I don't see how her "Pragmatic" course protects his legacy Lazy Daisy Feb 2016 #196

It defies reason AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #3

Your post doesn't help I'm trying to get more black people on our side JRLeft Feb 2016 #6

It defies reason AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #8

I hope Bernie doesn't think like you, otherwise we will lose. JRLeft Feb 2016 #16

Explain what's so wonderful about her then AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #24

I don't like her at all. JRLeft Feb 2016 #216

Other people have different worldviews. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2016 #126

Please try explaining what that means. basselope Feb 2016 #17

I know a lot of black who are pro Bernie too. Most black are riding with Hillary JRLeft Feb 2016 #22

Why? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #25

I can, but I am also an honest observer nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #136

My friends are 35-45 range. basselope Feb 2016 #27

It is partly the electability issue. Like many other democrats, they believe Hillary tblue37 Feb 2016 #81

On what evidence do you base this? basselope Feb 2016 #107

Articles I have read that quote some African Americans saying so. nt tblue37 Feb 2016 #128

Who wrote those articles? basselope Feb 2016 #134

Of course not, which is why I qualified the comment. nt tblue37 Feb 2016 #139

So no REAL evidence then.. just some articles you kinda remember reading, but cannot cite. basselope Feb 2016 #170

Bernie's supporters will prevent you from doing that, while screaming that Squinch Feb 2016 #215

Uh-huh!! :) Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #231

Not insensitive. Racist! Black people are idiots? Way to win over voters. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #227

Soooooo, for the last 7 months PoC on DU have NOT been screaming out loud why Sanders... uponit7771 Feb 2016 #21

Tell us why they support Clinton? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #29

This message was self-deleted by its author jillan Feb 2016 #51

There have been numerous post on the issue in the last half year, you can't throw a rock around here uponit7771 Feb 2016 #103

So you support her but cannot come up with an answer why people support her? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #104

OK, I'm White RobinA Feb 2016 #129

RobinA, you were asked to state why you are for Clinton, not for your reasons to oppose Bernie. Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #146

I see the same things. Mondale was the last Democrat that ran on raising taxes redstateblues Feb 2016 #152

and yet what you 'see' is not really persuasive to me, your fears are not my own and lots of people Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #159

Exactly Bobbie Jo Feb 2016 #101

+1 uponit7771 Feb 2016 #102

someone just suggested to me I'd like to "bus minorities" to NH because I said 1.5% bettyellen Feb 2016 #124

You were jjust stating facts lunasun Feb 2016 #154

Yep. That's the thing we've all been noticing. They don't give a damn until it's time to worship Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #230

Let's clarify, some of you have screamed why Sanders will not reach PoC nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #137

Not relevant if all PoC joined in this context what was relevant was that PoC have been speeaking uponit7771 Feb 2016 #140

Sorry it is so relevant nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #141

That is so dismissive. Maybe you/ we don't understand it but that doesn't mean it's nonsense. JudyM Feb 2016 #23

Then explain it AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #31

You're not listening to the abundant answers. There's no "secret." Hekate Feb 2016 #163

Then what is it AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #199

You need to stop posting. You just lost 10k more AA votes for Sanders. brush Feb 2016 #36

Gasp! The horror! AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #64

You use the term "idiotic nonsense" and wonder why people are offended? brush Feb 2016 #68

Yeah, cool story bro AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #73

Ahhh, asking insensitive, insulting questions that you don't seem to even know are insulting brush Feb 2016 #74

Like "why vote for Hillary?" AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #79

and he is one of thousands doing it- despite Sanders begging them to stop. bettyellen Feb 2016 #164

Oh Please. RobinA Feb 2016 #130

Guess you weren't here for the poster who said that POC who were Clinton supporters . . . brush Feb 2016 #138

And some of us had Clinton supporters nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #143

Actually that Stockhom OP addressed LGBT and African Americans, by name and not modified by Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #155

There was no intent to leave out the LGBT shade, it was for comparison to another odious OP brush Feb 2016 #165

It defies *your* reason. Other people may have different risk assessments. winter is coming Feb 2016 #57

Thanks for a well reasoned answer AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #65

Many POC who support HRC have been making this exact argument which has fallen on deaf ears. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #228

There are valid reasons why African American and other Democratic voters are not supporting Sanders Gothmog Feb 2016 #192

They can say why they hate Bernie Sanders, but not what it is they see in Clinton AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #198

It's run its course RobertEarl Feb 2016 #4

Right on NowSam Feb 2016 #10

+10,000 nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #13

Her Bill Clinton coattails will only take her so far. nt Bonobo Feb 2016 #11

Those coattails will only take her downward. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #14

Minorities were hesitant to back Obama at first. HooptieWagon Feb 2016 #15

No, we didn't know him at first but that didn't take long... he came to talk to us... then it was uponit7771 Feb 2016 #20

He's going to the Black Town Hall Forum in Minneapolis. HooptieWagon Feb 2016 #28

Because some folks are truly afraid nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #18

Don't Forget Those RobinA Feb 2016 #132

Yeah both of those years saw two perfectly good outsiders nadinbrzezinski Feb 2016 #135

Sanders lost IA PoC by 25% after spending 3 months campaigning there, he might be reaching out uponit7771 Feb 2016 #19

Sanders just managed to get 48% of POC in New Hampshire, John Poet Feb 2016 #30

LOL. What, 48% of 100? brush Feb 2016 #39

The POC turnout was reportedly seven percent of the Democratic primary, John Poet Feb 2016 #69

Just how many PoC do you think are in IA? (nt) jeff47 Feb 2016 #127

Iowa is likely more conservative and religious, even in AA community. HooptieWagon Feb 2016 #34

As a minority, I will answer this artislife Feb 2016 #37

Excellent and perceptive post, artislife. brush Feb 2016 #41

I respect your opinion and it is a good post but I just haven't seen that. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #46

I read it multiple times on this site artislife Feb 2016 #53

I don't count this site since half the people pretending to be people of color on here are not. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #56

I trust that poster but I was surprised to find how many artislife Feb 2016 #59

Let's do it. We have to. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #61

if amborin Feb 2016 #151

I don't think she will win the GE. nt artislife Feb 2016 #237

respectfully..... grasswire Feb 2016 #47

Bernie voted for that 1994 crime bill, by the way. nt ecstatic Feb 2016 #54

That had a clause to protect women against violence artislife Feb 2016 #62

I am a Bernie supporter artislife Feb 2016 #58

That is another huge issue for me. The Prison Industrial Revolution must be stopped Live and Learn Feb 2016 #60

. bravenak Feb 2016 #55

White people can afford to "make a point" firebrand80 Feb 2016 #90

" Maybe Bernie can win, but I'm not inclined to roll the dice." basselope Feb 2016 #99

GE polls mean nothing nt firebrand80 Feb 2016 #100

How else do you judge a candidates viability? basselope Feb 2016 #105

The way you fail to listen to the answers being given is a perfect illustration.... Hekate Feb 2016 #166

The failure of people to read the OP is a better one. basselope Feb 2016 #169

An awful it of people are trying to tell you something, but you don't like their answers. Hekate Feb 2016 #183

No, an awful lot of people misread the OP and answered their own question. basselope Feb 2016 #187

Thank you so much. They will not listen. Only if one worships Sanders. That's it. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #229

Very well said! n/t Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #92

I don't remotely understand your answer.. basselope Feb 2016 #98

I don't think you will get it. artislife Feb 2016 #112

Seems like what too many people are doing. basselope Feb 2016 #117

Read NanceGregg's explanation artislife Feb 2016 #119

You didn't read the OP very carefully, did you? basselope Feb 2016 #120

Maybe I did read it differently artislife Feb 2016 #122

This is exactly the problem basselope Feb 2016 #123

Sometimes these discussions can make you tired all over.... Stellar Feb 2016 #142

I swear that is true artislife Feb 2016 #200

Spawning, lmao! Stellar Feb 2016 #208

Good post. one_voice Feb 2016 #116

Why thank you for the compliment. And thank you for your well-reasoned, brilliant answer. :) Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #232

Wrong. It's not just name recognition. It's her relationships. ecstatic Feb 2016 #40

It is about relationships artislife Feb 2016 #63

What track record? AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #66

A lot of people are voting for Hillary Clinton. lovemydog Feb 2016 #67

I am not a person of color, Blue_In_AK Feb 2016 #76

I think we are already seeing a backlash to that meme from women and people of color. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #78

It always comes down to the same argument ... NanceGreggs Feb 2016 #83

One poster below just posted that "we" don't get it... like... WOW!!!! uponit7771 Feb 2016 #111

I have to agree with you on this. nt artislife Feb 2016 #115

How many voters, whether white or AA/POC, currently have well-reasoned and well-informed judgments Vattel Feb 2016 #186

... NanceGreggs Feb 2016 #193

Most voters are low-info. And Bernie's support is growing as people come to Vattel Feb 2016 #202

The fact Clinton supporters don't insult people of color BainsBane Feb 2016 #84

All of this. bravenak Feb 2016 #85

I've gotten the same thing on Twitter BainsBane Feb 2016 #125

It's okay, there's a re-education camp where you can learn more. lovemydog Feb 2016 #180

Lol, I know bravenak Feb 2016 #181

I'm afraid classes would be like this: lovemydog Feb 2016 #184

I'm leaning towards supporting Sanders (O'Malley supporter originally) but I agree 100%. PragmaticLiberal Feb 2016 #114

+10000000 betsuni Feb 2016 #162

WOW!!! WOW!!! WOW!!! This should be its own OP. Amazingly genius!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #233

It's just inertia, they will come around as Bernie gets the charm offensive going. Odin2005 Feb 2016 #88

I'm for Bernie but lots of my AA aren't and I don't try to tell them they don't get it or don't JRug Feb 2016 #89

This is one part I don't get... TCJ70 Feb 2016 #91

There is no difference. Vattel Feb 2016 #203

excellent comments! nt m-lekktor Feb 2016 #93

Don't you think this post is offensive?!!?!? "THE...don't get it"!!?!? wow... keep it classy right?! uponit7771 Feb 2016 #110

There are good reasons why Sanders is not appealing to African American and other voters Gothmog Feb 2016 #95

This is a HUGE reason, too! Keep posting this passage as much as you can. Bash my president, Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #234

Hillary made this point very effectively in the debate tonight Gothmog Feb 2016 #238

Yeah, I saw. Fully appreciated that. Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #239

I'm curious as to what her proposals actually are to help PoC. Haven't seen them. nt. polly7 Feb 2016 #96

Clinton began her career on the national stage as First Lady... Orsino Feb 2016 #97

She had quite a full life BEFORE she was FLOTUS. She got her law degree. She worked for... Hekate Feb 2016 #176

Clinton is NOT nothing. Orsino Feb 2016 #206

It sounds arrogant and condescending. earthside Feb 2016 #106

I have been told it is arrogant and condescending of me to even ask this question. basselope Feb 2016 #108

Let's say you go to a party lovemydog Feb 2016 #188

Or that the Clintons have had a long term relationship with PoC on a personal level?! Visiting churc uponit7771 Feb 2016 #109

One primary issue all racial minorities in the US have to deal with every day Zorra Feb 2016 #113

hammer meet nail. BINGO! Hiraeth Feb 2016 #118

did they tell you to "shhhhh" and "just listen" yet? Bread and Circus Feb 2016 #131

Obama had a problem with LGBT the same way Bernie does with PoC. ieoeja Feb 2016 #133

No "secret sauce" just 25 years supporting the African American community. DCBob Feb 2016 #145

Not really. basselope Feb 2016 #148

thats an article, the polls say different uponit7771 Feb 2016 #149

Apparently Bernie needs to spit on or punch one of his white constituents as a show of solidarity? JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #150

lol.... I'm going to go to hell for laughing at this but I can't get the image out of my head uponit7771 Feb 2016 #153

Why don't POC like Bernie and Bernie supporters? This comment is an example of why. As is the OP. Squinch Feb 2016 #167

.... so you won't say what it is? But it exists out there in the ether I guess... JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #168

It's been discussed here on DU ad nauseam. I am exhausted by how many times people Squinch Feb 2016 #173

' "name recognition" idiocy ' basselope Feb 2016 #194

Do you listen to what the people of color here say at all? Squinch Feb 2016 #213

Just stop with the nonsense.... basselope Feb 2016 #218

You entered a conversation about the idea that POC are not voting for Bernie Squinch Feb 2016 #219

Incorrect basselope Feb 2016 #220

Oh but they DO like Bernie Sanders senz Feb 2016 #201

Not sure where you are getting that idea, but have fun with it. Squinch Feb 2016 #214

From votes actually cast! basselope Feb 2016 #221

ABSO-FUCKING-LUTE-LY!!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2016 #235

lol! lovemydog Feb 2016 #185

oh well lunasun Feb 2016 #157

Critique of the economy is necessary, but it LEAVES OUT the fact that it is ONLY ONE WAY... Hekate Feb 2016 #161

+1 betsuni Feb 2016 #174

Speaking about concerns is one thing. basselope Feb 2016 #195

Continuing education, sharing personal experience Jackilope Feb 2016 #171

This is really lovely. I don't share your love for Bernie, but I think I can learn things from you. Squinch Feb 2016 #177

I'm guessing someone is starved for attention. Nt HooptieWagon Feb 2016 #175

Some how... MrWendel Feb 2016 #178

Where in the OP is there anything about whitesplaining? basselope Feb 2016 #189

Ain't no white vs black here. romanic Feb 2016 #204

What is PoC? LAS14 Feb 2016 #179

PoC is person (or people) of color. lovemydog Feb 2016 #182

Thank you! nt LAS14 Feb 2016 #217

Wow...just wow Hydra Feb 2016 #197