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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
25. No argument about the cupability or the motives of the Japanese
Wed Jan 4, 2012, 01:43 PM
Jan 2012

That is absolutely true and I think it is largely how FDR saw it, too.

However it does miss one thing, the Japanese were modeling their strategy on what the west had been doing for the past 200+ years.

The entered into a colonial phase just as the rest of the world was starting to move away from it, true; however we should be mindful that the role model they were following was pretty ugly itself. Their entire modernism drive was motivated by what they saw colonialism doing to other countries. They had been completely isolated for centuries and when US Admiral Perry sailed into Tokyo Bay and initiate his gunboat diplomacy they saw a world split between those with military power who used it to take what they wanted and those who were the victims of those with the power.
They made a considered decision to be part of the first group rather than the second. It would have been wonderful if they had a tradition of growing Enlightenment such as was flowering in the West, but they didn't and they took the lessons from events that they were most able to internalize. It was tragic for them and the rest of the world.

If you want to criticize them for their actions from that point to the end of WWII I think you'll find a huge pool of like minded people among the present day Japanese.

http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=516&catid=16&subcatid=108
http://www.economist.com/node/1907601


Did you ever read Sam Clemens on the Moro Crater Massacre?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Crater_massacre

I can't find an online copy of Grief and Mourning for the Night but it is one of the most powerful pieces I've ever read. I strongly recommend the works in this snip on Clemems. They give good insight into what those like the Japanese were seeing as the nature of the world.

..Theologically, he appears to have maintained a deistic point of view somewhat similar to that of Paine and Jefferson, but his rejection of conventional religion was as thorough and angry as his rejection of conventional patriotism. Much of what he wrote on these subjects was too controversial for publication and did not see the light of day until years after his death. For those who would like to know this side of Mark Twain, I would especially recommend two small volumes, A Pen Warmed Up In Hell and Letters From [The] Earth, both available in paperback.

His reportorial style is at times reminiscent of H.L. Mencken in its merciless exposure of ugly facts. An example is his account of American atrocities in the Phillippines ("Grief and Mourning for the Night" in A Pen Warmed Up In Hell). If you have not read his "The War Prayer," then you should. This is included in the same volume, as is also his "Battle Hymn of the Republic (Brought Down to Date)," the last stanza of which reads:

In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich --
Our god is marching on.


http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainver.htm

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

They've been around a very long time RZM Dec 2011 #1
. TZ Dec 2011 #2
So that DavidSwanson guy has a reputation here? I think there's.. MarkCharles Dec 2011 #3
Not only that. Some people - doctors even - reject germ theory; heliocentrism too dmallind Dec 2011 #4
Well see I always thought the internet was making this stuff worse TZ Dec 2011 #5
Oh yes. This has been going on for a while LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #6
Try going to primary sources then. kristopher Dec 2011 #16
He WAS NOT desperate to go to Europe TZ Dec 2011 #18
Just claiming something is woo isn't "skepticism" kristopher Dec 2011 #19
Ummm TZ Dec 2011 #20
IIRC, there was a member MicaelS Dec 2011 #7
Yes, and they'll be mumbling it into their pureed veg at the old folks' home Warpy Dec 2011 #8
A Pearl Harbor truther!? Boston_Chemist Dec 2011 #9
I thought the argument was that... Odin2005 Dec 2011 #10
They had been in China for 10 years by then. kristopher Dec 2011 #14
Japan needed natural resources, MicaelS Jan 2012 #24
No argument about the cupability or the motives of the Japanese kristopher Jan 2012 #25
the site your linking to a hate site maddezmom Jan 2012 #32
I was unaware of this.. MicaelS Jan 2012 #33
thank you for editing maddezmom Jan 2012 #34
I heard about the "FDR Knew" theories a good 40 years ago in high school history class - LibertyLover Dec 2011 #11
'Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?' LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #12
The Japanese and the Germans were allies. kristopher Dec 2011 #15
Completely wrong. onager Dec 2011 #21
Have you made a detailed study of the history of this era? kristopher Dec 2011 #13
Umm the person who told me TZ Dec 2011 #17
everyone knows that those Zeros were holograms Anarcho-Socialist Jan 2012 #22
Nothing more than a right-wing smear used against FDR PVnRT Jan 2012 #23
Whether he knew the specifics of Pearl Harbor or not, there is little doubt he planned to go to war. rug Jan 2012 #26
I wish the FDR race camps were just a conspiracy theory. nt ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #27
Japanese-Americans could have had it worse... MicaelS Jan 2012 #28
Your post reads like it is defending the FDR race camps. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #29
No, I'm no defendng them.. MicaelS Jan 2012 #30
I am glad the misunderstanding is on my end. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #31
Germans in the U.S. were interned in both WWI and WWII onager Jan 2012 #35
The UK certainly interned 'enemy aliens' LeftishBrit Jan 2012 #37
"FDR knew" should be added to the TOS... onager Jan 2012 #36
Actually, I think that counts as a TOS violation. laconicsax Jan 2012 #38
I had a question for you from the meta-discussion thread. kristopher Jan 2012 #40
I addressed your post on the Tripartite Pact elsewhere - in the help & meta-discussion forum kristopher Jan 2012 #39
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