Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
23. Depends on how you want it to "stand up"
Wed Mar 9, 2016, 09:44 AM
Mar 2016

There are many common tropes in the Jesus story that could easily have been integrated onto local folk tales. The risen hero. The poor savior. The noble sacrifice. But these will only persuade people who already understand them and how folk literature develops in the first place. It's easy for such people to see parallels between, say, Jesus and Osiris or Zoroaster, but the simplistic audience fixates on disparate details. Remember there are many people who do not get the parallel between Romeo and Juliet (itself utterly unoriginal BTW) and West Side Story because there are no singing streetgangs in the former. Osiris lost his penis! Zoroaster wasn't the son of God!

There is probably more fertile ground with a believing audience in restricting criticism to the Jesus myth itself and not having to rely on external knowledge of folklore arcana. How his life story becomes more embellished and more divine from earliest gospel Mark to latest John. How it is an amalgam of Jerusalem and Galilee traditions. How the very first christological writings from Paul barely acknowledge a living human messiah at all. If they are likely to be persuaded by other source parallels it may be better to start with the numerous hagiographies of other would be Messiahs that abounded in 1st Century Palestine like Grisham novels in 21st Century JFK, and how several of these featured the same character as the scriptural Jesus flying like Superman, killing childhood pals (it's ok, he raised him again) and acting more Marvel than Mishnah. If they can handle that it's only then worth much effort talking about basic hero-myth themes and how Jesus suspiciously ticks all the boxes.

As far as historical corroboration goes, only an idiot believes the bit in Josephus is genuine and original, and just about all other non-biblical historical references even close to the same time mention not the man/god but his followers. There are many very accurate current writings about MUFON. It doesn't mean MIB is a documentary. The only even vaguely convincing bit is Tacitus, written about 75 years after. Tacitus was a good historian for his time, not a Herodotus-like tale-spinner, but he makes a mistake in the very same passage about Pilate so he's not infallible, and in any event is merely relating who the Christians are, and in doing so gives their origin story. It's the equivalent of us saying something like "Muslims greatly revere Muhammed. who listened to the Angel Gibreel and wrote the Koran". We are not saying that Gibreel really exists let alone dictated stuff to a medieval Arabic merchant. We are saying, accurately, that's the figure whom Muslims revere, and for that reason among others.

To be fair though it's straining credulity to assume whole cloth fiction too. These were not the times of googling or video evidence, and religious and superstitious ferment was widespread, but even so we do know, unquestionably, that people who were adults when he was supposed to have lived were willing to be killed for saying he was at least a prophet of God if not God incarnate. To be sure even in this age we have Moonies and Davidians and Schneerson-as-Messiah Chabadis, but all those leaders, surely mortal all, actually existed. Even then it's hard to imagine such a strong following built around somebody who never drew breath at all.

The TLDR version. There is little to no unbiased corroboration he existed, and we can say nothing positively true abut his life at all. The miraculous stuff can be dismissed out of hand (we have tanners' price lists from that milieu; if the dead rose from their graves when he was crucified, or if a king, who BTW died in 4 BCE, had slaughtered an entire cohort of infants, there'd be some mention of it). There are numerous both detailed and themic parallels with other hero myths and clear evidence of massive rapid embellishment, but there in all probability was some charismatic preacher around whom those myths and embellishments coalesced, but about whom we know bugger all for sure.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Well, personally I couldn't care less whether or not "Jesus" ever existed, historically. mr blur Mar 2016 #1
There is no doubt the overall themes of the story of Jesus are present in many mythologies. trotsky Mar 2016 #2
I had already been a non-believer for many years OriginalGeek Mar 2016 #14
The similarities between Jesus, Horus, et all, are the least of it Brainstormy Mar 2016 #3
My concern is simply about some of the details of the similarities... Silent3 Mar 2016 #4
Don't get started on Moses! AlbertCat Mar 2016 #6
I don't think.... AlbertCat Mar 2016 #5
Ever see edhopper Mar 2016 #7
It's a pointless argument over a meaningless claim. Christianity is based on Judaism muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #8
Overwhelming evidence? uriel1972 Mar 2016 #9
Jesus definitely existed. He's my 89th cousin's daughter's kid on my mom's side :) Freelancer Mar 2016 #10
Cookie Cutter Christs... NeoGreen Mar 2016 #11
I can't see any similarity in the Mithra Wikipedia article muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #12
I've encounted a lot of this before, I'm just wondering if the degree of similiarity... Silent3 Mar 2016 #13
So the comparisons of one bullshit story to a bunch of other bullshit stories don't hold up? Iggo Mar 2016 #15
It might be a "yawn" in the overall picture of "believe/don't believe"... Silent3 Mar 2016 #16
I got away from "believe/don't believe" and now I look at it as "real/not real". Iggo Mar 2016 #17
In the big picture, historical jesus is irrelevant. Supernatural jesus is a myth, end of story. cleanhippie Mar 2016 #18
From the viewpoint of a believer that might be having doubts, however... Silent3 Mar 2016 #19
So about the historical accuracy of the Jesus story. Promethean Mar 2016 #20
I'm certainly willing to believe that there might actually be a real man behind the myth... Silent3 Mar 2016 #21
The Romans! trotsky Mar 2016 #22
Depends on how you want it to "stand up" whatthehey Mar 2016 #23
I didn't watch the documentary so I'm not entirely sure about what some of the references are Major Nikon Mar 2016 #24
This isn't about matching a possible real-life Jesus, however... Silent3 Mar 2016 #25
I understood that part Major Nikon Mar 2016 #26
Latest Discussions»Alliance Forums»Atheists & Agnostics»How well do the much-tout...»Reply #23