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gtar100

(4,192 posts)
12. That is interesting as I had not really heard what the RCC says about biblical interpretation.
Wed Dec 12, 2018, 03:49 AM
Dec 2018

This statement in particular: "In the Bible, God teaches us the truths that we need for the sake of our salvation". From one perspective, that is an assertive statement, a claim, so to speak. But I see more in it than that. I also see the church stepping back and acknowledging that the ultimate meanings are between one's self and God. Because what is more personal than one's salvation? It's why I am turned off by people going around telling others they must be saved. Yea right... you first... is one of my responses. But honestly, it's none of their business. I hold that as true for everyone. When I'm in an atmosphere of respect and around people I love and who love me, that's just how it works naturally. Nobody is going to force me to say things I don't believe or tell me what a rotten person I am on one hand and offer me an antidote from the other. Exactly what is my "salvation" is strictly between me and God. If any aspect of it is shared between us, it should be mutual and nobody should be coerced into doing something they don't feel right for themselves. I like to picture it as being born in the middle of a flowing river. That river is made up of stories, the ones we tell ourselves about who and what we are. The river came before us and will continue long after we die. In it there are my personal stories, yours, and there are stories we learned from our families, communities and the culture at large. These later ones often take on a life of their own and live on beyond one or two generations, sometimes taking on importance politically, socially, religiously, historically. They give us a perspective of who we believe ourselves to be in a wider context. They are our collective dreams. And our free will is that we get to decide what we think about them. We may have been fed the stories to believe and not believe - by the well-meaning and the devious alike. I was. I've been fed stories by public education, religious education, television and radio, now the Internet. But at some point it comes down to the individual having to decide which stories have meaning, value and relevance and which ones don't. Free will.

And then there's the church. In this case, the RCC that has lasted for almost two thousand years with roots going back even further. That's no short story in an encyclopedia. That's a tradition, a central pillar for millions of people. That is an epic, a grand story that people find important to keep alive generation after generation. It has attracted scoundrels and saints, of course, but also people just wanting to connect to something meaningful and sometimes mysterious. Back to the article, it states church has no official position on interpretations of scripture and I think that is good. I see the RCC as a place one can go to practice purposeful rituals of one type or another, gain an orthodox perspective on reality and, in essence, feed one's soul. It is a rich fountain of information and community that, if it speaks to you, it's available. Or should be. If the relationship between each individual and God is respected, there is great power in the church. Which is why the abuses of power, manipulations of people's minds, the sexual abuse going on within its walls, and general fuckery that people do with religion is so abhorrent. All those things are poisoning what should be something that should be a place for people to find refuge, community and guidance if wanted but a place to always be respected as a living being regardless of the conditions or circumstances of their lives. It should be that, it's our story to tell and it seems to be the story it's trying to tell.

These excerpts tell me that there are people within the church who know this which is why it lives on. But it's got some serious problems. It's like how the republican party is attracting nazis, racists, anti-semites, fundamentalists, and generally cranky people. It's bringing them down. It's also happening to the Catholic Church as well. Choking on some serious poisons. I hope that the good isn't killed off with the bad. But, as I see it, it needs to get off its high horse and get rid of the people who are abusing it. I'm not going to wait around for things to get better, though. I don't trust the power structure as it is. It's not my church either but I've had the good fortune to meet some really great people in the church who helped me get through some tough times...without the pressure to be anybody but myself or be "saved by Jesus". I know the power of good is there, it's in the people in the congregation, and the priests, bishops and popes and everyone in between ought to realize they are there to serve the communities of people that gather there. What a privilege! I'll get off my soap box... it just pisses me off to see the privilege abused and the pain, anger, hatred and resentment it causes. If the story dies, maybe it deserved to.

Basically TlalocW Dec 2018 #1
And that happens. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #2
We may argue about intent, but nobody argues that the parts we don't like are metaphorical marylandblue Dec 2018 #97
Yes, they actually do argue just that. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #99
Prefatory is not the same as metaphorical marylandblue Dec 2018 #100
The intent is the same. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #101
So you are admitting that the intent of a metaphorical reading marylandblue Dec 2018 #102
"When it agrees with whatever you think. " mitch96 Dec 2018 #35
So, it means exactly what one thinks it means MineralMan Dec 2018 #3
And you feel differently? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #7
You were raised in a literalist tradition. trotsky Dec 2018 #17
You know nothing of how I was raised. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #26
You yourself said you were raised in the RCC. trotsky Dec 2018 #34
OK. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #41
It's a statement YOU made in the post starting this thread, g. trotsky Dec 2018 #61
Again: guillaumeb Dec 2018 #74
I've read them. trotsky Dec 2018 #86
You obviously created your own definition, and your own argument. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #87
I think he is using your implied definition marylandblue Dec 2018 #88
But he states that I am a literalist in spite of my many posts, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #89
You've often accused atheists of being literalists, despite their protestations marylandblue Dec 2018 #90
I have accused SOME. Not all. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #91
His point is the same whether it is some or all marylandblue Dec 2018 #92
But you are. You take much of the Christian bible literally. trotsky Dec 2018 #94
I understand your position. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #95
Then offer up an argument as to why I'm wrong. trotsky Dec 2018 #96
It is useless to do so. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #98
Why? trotsky Dec 2018 #104
Not at all. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #105
Then offer up an argument as to why I'm wrong. trotsky Dec 2018 #106
Your reply validates my earlier response. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #107
Still no response, because you can't provide one. trotsky Dec 2018 #108
It's an unresolved issue based on a question you've never answered. trotsky Dec 2018 #93
He didn't mean that literally. Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #56
... trotsky Dec 2018 #60
I feel differently, yes. MineralMan Dec 2018 #20
One can read the Bible as literal story. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #27
I don't know of any atheists who read the Bible MineralMan Dec 2018 #31
I understand. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #32
Oh, I recognize your objective here... MineralMan Dec 2018 #37
And I yours. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #43
A dissertation would not be appropriate for DU marylandblue Dec 2018 #44
Believe me, nobody wants a dissertation. MineralMan Dec 2018 #64
It would go such a long way toward ACTUAL dialog in this forum... trotsky Dec 2018 #65
I asked him once, but he punted. MineralMan Dec 2018 #67
He's playing a game that believers who fancy themselves quite intelligent often do. trotsky Dec 2018 #68
I see it a little differently. MineralMan Dec 2018 #69
I think you are right marylandblue Dec 2018 #72
There's a logical progression. Some go through the steps quickly MineralMan Dec 2018 #73
Nah. It's just random splatter from rns. Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #84
For some, that kind of random sampling MineralMan Dec 2018 #85
Define "valid". Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #4
It means that the person in question agrees with it. MineralMan Dec 2018 #5
What I wrote: guillaumeb Dec 2018 #9
I am not asking you to repeat yourself. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #14
Allow me. trotsky Dec 2018 #16
I intertepret "valid" differently marylandblue Dec 2018 #19
Acceptable at the moment, I think. MineralMan Dec 2018 #38
Meaningful discussion requires both sides to answer relevant questions Major Nikon Dec 2018 #22
The term was defined in the sentences. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #25
Perhaps your sentences didn't do an adequate job defining the term. trotsky Dec 2018 #36
Perhaps not. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #42
Or perhaps I did and they aren't the be-all, end-all "silence everyone who disagrees with me"... trotsky Dec 2018 #59
I am too stupid to decipher meaning from your prose. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #52
The RCC may not have an authoritative interpretation for each verse, but marylandblue Dec 2018 #6
The Pope speaks on certain things. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #8
So what happens if you tell your priest his holy orders are worthless, marylandblue Dec 2018 #10
I would suggest that you ask a priest that question. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #24
The Pope is allowed to use Latin because he is the Pope marylandblue Dec 2018 #45
I use Latin, and I am not the Pope. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #46
Jesus spoke Aramaic and so you should too marylandblue Dec 2018 #48
If I were Jesus, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #49
Why is God edhopper Dec 2018 #11
Maybe that's just it. God isn't perfect. gtar100 Dec 2018 #13
As Epicurus said edhopper Dec 2018 #21
But we cannot know what the Creator is wiling to do. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #47
Then he is a proper wanker edhopper Dec 2018 #51
Sounds suspiciously like you made that all up. Complete fabrication. trotsky Dec 2018 #62
Well, not so, really. Here's what the French version of the MineralMan Dec 2018 #70
Your little dissertation has nothing to do guillaumeb Dec 2018 #75
No? Well, you see, I'm not constrained by your expectations. MineralMan Dec 2018 #77
No perfect being could possibly screw up as much Mariana Dec 2018 #50
Perhaps our human intelligence is not capable of discerning guillaumeb Dec 2018 #28
So it's up to us? edhopper Dec 2018 #33
I cannot answer for the Creator. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #40
So if a teacher cannot clearly explain concepts Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #57
An interesting theory. You certainly do like to think of your fellow human beings as stupid. trotsky Dec 2018 #63
Or, perhaps there is no such Creator, eh, which means MineralMan Dec 2018 #71
If a creator requires its creations to follow its instructions, but does not give them the capacity LongtimeAZDem Dec 2018 #76
There is another possibility, where there is no creator, but only MineralMan Dec 2018 #78
Which is why I expressed it as a conditional accepting the premise, so as not to leave open the LongtimeAZDem Dec 2018 #80
Good point. MineralMan Dec 2018 #81
That is interesting as I had not really heard what the RCC says about biblical interpretation. gtar100 Dec 2018 #12
Thank you for your answer. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #29
Every interpretation is valid. trotsky Dec 2018 #15
which is also to say every interpretation is invalid as well.... nt uriel1972 Dec 2018 #39
You got it! n/t trotsky Dec 2018 #58
Multiple meanings Cartoonist Dec 2018 #18
#s 1 and 2 of your response are contradictory. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #30
They aren't Lordquinton Dec 2018 #54
You mean like theism and deism? Major Nikon Dec 2018 #55
LOL. Classic gil. trotsky Dec 2018 #66
The modern church needs excuses on why it's no longer a good idea to murder disobedient children Major Nikon Dec 2018 #23
What makes it valid? Choose the interpretation that reads the way you want it to. There are many ver keithbvadu2 Dec 2018 #53
Just had this conversation with daughter woodsprite Dec 2018 #79
Greek. Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #83
Laughter? Ferrets are Cool Dec 2018 #82
If it comes from the Church of the Third Revelation... Buckeye_Democrat Dec 2018 #103
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