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DetlefK

(16,459 posts)
41. All proofs for/against God are entirely logical/philosophical/mathematical.
Tue Nov 27, 2018, 06:42 AM
Nov 2018

They are removed from the constraints of having to deal with facts.

For example, the famous logician Kurt Goedel (a contemporary and friend of Albert Einstein) once wrote a purely mathematical proof that God must exist. (The proof became famous about 5 years ago, because it took that long to double-check it, because it's so complicated. They had to invent an entire new form of algebra for it.)

Goedel's proof rested on a few assumptions of the nature of the universe: First, that everything in the universe can be categorized as either good or bad. Second, good only begats good and evil only begats evil.

With that, he proved that there must be a highest good thing in the universe. Which he then interpreted to be God.

Goedel's proof is nice and all, but not applicable to reality, because in reality you cannot split the universe into clearly good things and clearly evil things. And sometimes good begats evil and sometimes evil begats good.
The whole proof has no connection to reality.

which god, there are so many to choose from. nt msongs Nov 2018 #1
A thing can be observed by many people. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #2
I will say this, I find most of what you say and do on this website to be sincere. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #3
Thank you. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #4
Uh, not sure, you have to see the episode, I dont want to do spoilers. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #7
Feel free to be a spoiler. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #8
It involves aliens like everything on that show, I am finding out. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #10
Trump is an alien. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #12
Giving him WAY too much credit Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #14
There is no evidence for the existence of God. Ron Obvious Nov 2018 #5
It is an assertion. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #6
If God is unprovable, can unprovable things "exist"? DetlefK Nov 2018 #16
Unprovable. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #19
Have any experiment in mind to test the hypothesis? exboyfil Nov 2018 #51
None. And that is why I have faith. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #70
Prove that I don't have the power to teleport from one John Fante Nov 2018 #60
Another assertion. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #104
And improvable, no? John Fante Nov 2018 #105
By me. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #106
lol if it's unprovable qazplm135 Nov 2018 #102
Your questions are valid and rational Hav Nov 2018 #9
Theists rely on faith. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #11
Why is this such a big.deal? Cary Nov 2018 #27
There's everything wrong with "faith" in unverifiable nonsense Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #34
Like what? Cary Nov 2018 #35
Because it leads you to nowhere Hav Nov 2018 #37
I will have to think on that Cary Nov 2018 #38
What is truth? guillaumeb Nov 2018 #66
That is a good point Cary Nov 2018 #74
Agreed. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #78
I think some are just plain old dishonest Cary Nov 2018 #82
No, not only what is provable by us Hav Nov 2018 #86
And the scientific approach, what you describe, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #89
Oh, DU has been a shelter since the dark Bush years for me Hav Nov 2018 #93
Simply my comment about how things are ometimes framed. eom guillaumeb Nov 2018 #65
You have stated a truth. MineralMan Nov 2018 #13
Read the post. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #17
Why did you assume I did not. MineralMan Nov 2018 #22
Spot on. The burden of proof is in the god proponent. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #32
Assuming and accepting that you read the post, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #63
Did I? MineralMan Nov 2018 #68
Clearly. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #73
Challenge accepted. That's a fairly simple philosophical riddle. DetlefK Nov 2018 #15
You can see nothing in other universes. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #18
We can define what would constitute evidence of other universes, but not of God marylandblue Nov 2018 #40
All proofs for/against God are entirely logical/philosophical/mathematical. DetlefK Nov 2018 #41
But if we assume that the Creator is everywhere in creation, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #69
If you don't have definition of the Creator marylandblue Nov 2018 #87
My guess is that the Creator embodies energy. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #90
This violates your assumption that we don't know what to look for marylandblue Nov 2018 #91
No, it is my guess. Defined as such. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #92
It's a guess, but what did you actually guess? marylandblue Nov 2018 #96
If the Creator is sentient energy, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #98
We'd look for evidence of sentience marylandblue Nov 2018 #101
"So where does one look?" trotsky Nov 2018 #120
No, I am asking a question. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #122
Then who can define it? DetlefK Nov 2018 #42
I accepted the premise in the OP for the sake of argument marylandblue Nov 2018 #44
Maybe it also it's because it has a lot to do with what's inside gtar100 Nov 2018 #20
There is that factor. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #21
Your "view" has no evidence to support it. MineralMan Nov 2018 #24
Given that I have stated this many times before, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #64
I respond as I choose. MineralMan Nov 2018 #67
Why do you feel the need to state anything many times? Mariana Nov 2018 #81
Which avoids the point of why the post was made. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #83
Donald Trump is God. Prove he is not. MineralMan Nov 2018 #23
It is up to the god botherers to both define Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #25
The idea of the multiverse is a hypothesis. MineralMan Nov 2018 #26
It's like he didn't read the article at all Lordquinton Nov 2018 #138
The concept isn't too hard to visualize. MineralMan Nov 2018 #142
Given that the article specifically addresses his comment Lordquinton Nov 2018 #149
The claims of almost all believers edhopper Nov 2018 #28
I believe in the Creator. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #71
for which there is no evidence edhopper Nov 2018 #75
Belief. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #79
And do you admit that edhopper Nov 2018 #85
I admit that billions have faith in unprovable things. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #88
All those old Gods edhopper Nov 2018 #111
Many things exist. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #117
Which has nothing to do with my question. edhopper Nov 2018 #129
Gil has already explained Mariana Nov 2018 #84
As has been said on this thread, a God is open to many interpretations. Doodley Nov 2018 #29
The problem comes when a book Thunderbeast Nov 2018 #30
Belief in gods, or any belief not based on evidence, is irrational. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #31
Totally agree...nt uriel1972 Nov 2018 #33
I believe I'll have another drink Major Nikon Nov 2018 #52
If you leave God undefined, then it is in the same category as covfefe. marylandblue Nov 2018 #36
No one can show evidence for the existance of god at this time. Eko Nov 2018 #39
Define god. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43
The op won't do that. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #55
I think it's interesting that one can say the same thing about dark matter ck4829 Nov 2018 #45
There is evidence for dark matter because we can measure it's mass marylandblue Nov 2018 #47
There is a lot of evidence edhopper Nov 2018 #49
But it's the same see because it is entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #56
It's like believing in thisng we can't see edhopper Nov 2018 #61
Abour your "parable" MineralMan Nov 2018 #46
The multi-verse hypothesis is just one Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #57
Well, the woo-sters, as usual, are distorting the little we MineralMan Nov 2018 #58
Horrible analogy. trotsky Nov 2018 #48
Well, it wasn't all that well thought-out. MineralMan Nov 2018 #50
We can speculate on what might be in other universes, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #72
Mathematics isn't entirely speculation, you know. trotsky Nov 2018 #94
What part of the concept of faith is unclear? guillaumeb Nov 2018 #95
What makes you call yourself a Christian? n/t trotsky Nov 2018 #97
What makes you call yourself an atheist? eom guillaumeb Nov 2018 #99
Nope, not playing your game. Answer my question first. trotsky Nov 2018 #100
I already answered this one. More than once. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #103
But that's not exclusively the "message of Jesus." trotsky Nov 2018 #110
OK. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #116
So? trotsky Nov 2018 #118
Just OK. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #119
I asked you to state what makes you a Christian. YOU defined it, remember? trotsky Nov 2018 #121
Hello, definer. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #123
So you're giving up it seems. trotsky Nov 2018 #124
And now you revert to another logical fallacy, a much used one. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #125
Further self-humiliation, g? An interesting tactic. trotsky Nov 2018 #128
Makes about as much sense as equating creationism to evolution Major Nikon Nov 2018 #53
Well, he got the thread title right, anyhow. MineralMan Nov 2018 #59
Well, let's just agree that faith does not equal evidence. KPN Nov 2018 #54
we don't ask for 'Perfect' evidence... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #62
We can not see where our Universe ends at140 Nov 2018 #76
You are assuming that your perception is a reality. You say there are zillions of suns. Saying so Doodley Nov 2018 #107
I have seen many maps of galaxies and some are so far away, at140 Nov 2018 #108
How do you know they are real maps, and not simply part of a world that only exists in mind? Doodley Nov 2018 #112
guill, I agree with the title. saidsimplesimon Nov 2018 #77
Prove this position: guillaumeb Nov 2018 #80
There is no evidence for the existence of leprechauns. trotsky Nov 2018 #113
The position is true by inspection(as my math teachers used to call it) marylandblue Nov 2018 #114
It is not incumbent on me to prove god doesn't exist. bitterross Nov 2018 #109
Not the point. eom guillaumeb Nov 2018 #115
There is plenty of evidence that god does not exist, however. malchickiwick Nov 2018 #126
I think. Snackshack Nov 2018 #127
If he exists explain Dick Cheney. gibraltar72 Nov 2018 #130
Argument from Ignorance LongtimeAZDem Nov 2018 #131
That razor cuts both ways. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #133
And so you cannot assume any evidence beyond that (nt) LongtimeAZDem Nov 2018 #143
Or assume that because there is no evidence here, there is no evidence. eom guillaumeb Nov 2018 #145
One can assume that until the existence of other rooms is demonstrated. (nt) LongtimeAZDem Nov 2018 #146
Or.... one can assume that the search is not conclusive of anything. eom guillaumeb Nov 2018 #147
You're making invisible unicorn arguments, and wasting my time. (nt) LongtimeAZDem Nov 2018 #148
As is usually the case, you billh58 Nov 2018 #132
A welcome addition to this conversation. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #134
Thanks for the response, and just one more thing: billh58 Nov 2018 #135
And many intermediaries are happy to side with the rulign class guillaumeb Nov 2018 #136
As it always was... n/t billh58 Nov 2018 #137
What a train wreck Lordquinton Nov 2018 #139
Yes, your response was. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #140
I backed up my claims Lordquinton Nov 2018 #141
No, you interpreted speculation as proof of your position. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #144
Yes, I missed the link I quoted from Lordquinton Nov 2018 #150
Your previous accusation: guillaumeb Nov 2018 #151
Need some more straw? Lordquinton Nov 2018 #152
No, you supplied plenty of it. And now you are making up an implication and saying that I did it. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #153
Speaking of lieing, I never said you did Lordquinton Nov 2018 #154
Your own words: guillaumeb Nov 2018 #155
Why are you not responding to any of the content in my posts? Lordquinton Nov 2018 #156
Just admit that you called me a liar, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #157
So you can't respond to my actual comments? Lordquinton Nov 2018 #158
You attacked me, and called me a liar and dishonest. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #159
Never called you a liar Lordquinton Nov 2018 #160
Unfortunately for your claim, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #162
I stand by my comment Lordquinton Nov 2018 #178
Yes, okay. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #183
Imputing a motive is something you do and justify all the time marylandblue Nov 2018 #161
And the poster is still denying what we can all read. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #163
Lalalala - Can't hear you... MineralMan Nov 2018 #164
If someone called me a liar, I would demonstrate I am telling truth marylandblue Nov 2018 #165
The accusation stands, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #166
I did. I don't agree with you. marylandblue Nov 2018 #167
Specifically why? guillaumeb Nov 2018 #168
The connection between the article and your premise is unclear marylandblue Nov 2018 #169
The accusation: guillaumeb Nov 2018 #170
Correct, it is an accusation. And this is a Trumpian response. marylandblue Nov 2018 #171
Attempted to deceive is synonymous with lying. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #172
Are you OK, Guy? MineralMan Nov 2018 #173
Thank you for asking. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #174
Sorry. I call them as I see them. Just like you do. marylandblue Nov 2018 #181
Well, technically, he is correct. marylandblue Nov 2018 #175
I disagree. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #176
Nobody is 100% honest. Nobody. marylandblue Nov 2018 #179
Agreed. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #182
Yes it does help to avoid some things marylandblue Nov 2018 #186
Hey, so I never called you a liar Lordquinton Nov 2018 #185
guill, like myself, saidsimplesimon Nov 2018 #177
Interesting idea. I have a close relative with Asperger's. marylandblue Nov 2018 #188
As an observer, I can say that all the dialogue back and forth is quite interesting! FM123 Nov 2018 #180
Much fire and fury, guillaumeb Nov 2018 #184
That's normal, people don't change their minds easily marylandblue Nov 2018 #187
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