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Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
8. You're oversimplifying a complex issue.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 02:47 PM
Aug 2018

The First Amendment includes two provisions relating to religion: the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause. The complexity is that sometimes there is no way to accommodate one of those clauses without violating the other.

Here's a simple example. When Social Security was expanded to include agricultural workers, some Amish farmers refused to pay FICA taxes, on religious grounds. (I think the theological point was that Social Security is a form of insurance, which is true, and that insurance is contrary to God's will because it seeks to counter the divinely ordained consequences of whatever happened.) At least one Amish defendant was convicted and imprisoned.

Congress responded by amending the law to carve out an exemption tailored to the Amish.

Without the exemption, hard-working Amish farmers go to jail because they followed their religious beliefs, which would violate the Free Exercise Clause. With the exemption now in place, the Amish have a privilege that's not extended to libertarians and others who, on purely secular grounds, don't like Social Security; that privileged status for a religion violates the Establishment Clause.

On the other hand, the concern for the Free Exercise Clause wouldn't extend to allowing, for example, human sacrifice, if a group claiming to be reincarnated Aztecs were to say it's required by their religion.

In short, sometimes we violate one clause and sometimes we violate the other, depending on the circumstances. That's why it gets complicated.

If you want a nice, simple solution, you can get it by always prioritizing one Constitutional provision over the other. Just explain which of the above results you would change.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

K&R stonecutter357 Aug 2018 #1
1st amendment zipplewrath Aug 2018 #2
Special treatment of religious organizations also violates the 1st Amendment. MineralMan Aug 2018 #3
You're oversimplifying a complex issue. Jim Lane Aug 2018 #8
Is polygamy legal? Act_of_Reparation Aug 2018 #4
Nope zipplewrath Aug 2018 #5
"Sacraments" are irrelevant. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #9
Hardly irrelevant zipplewrath Sep 2018 #10
So you think our objection to confessionals being exempt from mandatory reporting laws is... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #11
Roughly zipplewrath Sep 2018 #12
Fascinating. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #13
What reality? zipplewrath Sep 2018 #14
The one where there's a public interest to placing conditions on confessional cofidentiality. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #15
I won't pretend to try to mind-read your reasoning on it qazplm135 Sep 2018 #17
It's a good thing you don't have to. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #18
can the sarcasm qazplm135 Sep 2018 #20
No. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #22
I never effing said anyone qazplm135 Sep 2018 #23
Read. The. Thread. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #24
lol qazplm135 Sep 2018 #25
Sorta my point zipplewrath Sep 2018 #19
it is absolutely not simply about qazplm135 Sep 2018 #21
Tax exemptions for churches was always a lousy idea. Girard442 Aug 2018 #6
501c(3) entities are exempt from taxes. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #36
I agree. Nitram Aug 2018 #7
Can't agree with 2 qazplm135 Sep 2018 #16
Exemptions from mandatory reporting of crimes should have valid reasons. trotsky Sep 2018 #28
Because qazplm135 Sep 2018 #29
Here's the problem with that: MineralMan Sep 2018 #31
they could qazplm135 Sep 2018 #38
In Pennsylvania, some children were given gold crosses to wear MineralMan Sep 2018 #40
yet some studies show that the recidivism qazplm135 Sep 2018 #41
Actually, no. I don't believe that any such privilege should MineralMan Sep 2018 #42
the privilege doesn't put anyone "above the law" qazplm135 Sep 2018 #44
To your point: guillaumeb Sep 2018 #32
no it's both concept and reality qazplm135 Sep 2018 #39
And absent the privilege, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #43
well duh of course it probably would not occur qazplm135 Sep 2018 #45
"it is ostensibly the religious figure will convince the wrongdoer to turn themselves in" trotsky Sep 2018 #46
A nonsense question. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #50
It wasn't a question. It was a request. trotsky Sep 2018 #59
Separation of church and state should mean at140 Sep 2018 #26
Yup. MineralMan Sep 2018 #27
Agreed on #1. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #30
So what? Your agreement is not my goal in any way. MineralMan Sep 2018 #33
TIFs are basically excusing corporations from paying taxes. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #34
Completely irrelevant to this discussion. MineralMan Sep 2018 #35
Always best to avoid what cannot be refuted. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #37
I understand your need to tell people what is best. Permanut Sep 2018 #47
Thank you for being understanding. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #51
lol Lordquinton Sep 2018 #55
Trees in the red oak group take two growing seasons Mariana Sep 2018 #48
Whataboutism Lordquinton Sep 2018 #49
Perhaps you should ask someone about this response of yours. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #52
You are technically correct Lordquinton Sep 2018 #54
Thank you. Can we build on that? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #56
It's really not relevant though Lordquinton Sep 2018 #57
Because churches are 501c(3) entities guillaumeb Sep 2018 #58
So the topic is churches and you say "Whatabout walmart" Lordquinton Sep 2018 #60
No, the topic is churches, and exemptions. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #61
Paying Taxes Has Nothing Whatsoever to Do With The Practice of Religion dlk Sep 2018 #53
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