Gun Control & RKBA

tortoise1956

(671 posts)

57. Here are some documents concerning the 2nd amendment, written much closer to the time it was drafted

Reply to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 08:39 PM

Jan 2018

By two leading constitutional scholars of the 19th century - Joseph Story (who served on the Supreme Court for 24 years) and William Rawle:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendIIs10.html

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/print_documents/amendIIs9.html

In these writings, they both stress that the 2nd amendment describes a right of the people, and is not limited to militia members.

The brilliant legal minds you talk of did not even consider these in their decision, mainly because they contradicted the "Collective Right" theory that they ascribed to. However, the plain truth is that two of the most brilliant legal minds of the early years of our country, both stated that this is an individual right that is not limited by the militia clause.

In any event, thanks for an enjoyable debate on teh subject. While we may never agree on this, it is important that it be discussed in a rational manner.

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Fewer guns mean fewer killings. We want a handgun ban. [View all] sharedvalues Dec 2017 OP

Stop open carry and thbobby Dec 2017 #1

What is a small gauge shotgun? Marengo Jan 2018 #27

Gauge refers to the diameter of thbobby Jan 2018 #29

A .410 has more stopping power at short range than .30-06 or .44 Mag? Based on what criteria? Marengo Jan 2018 #30

Sorry to be "that guy" but - no The Polack MSgt Jan 2018 #31

Thanks thbobby Jan 2018 #37

I am a Master Sergeant, although I retired in 05 The Polack MSgt Jan 2018 #43

I received a 22 caliber single shot rifle thbobby Jan 2018 #45

I favor universal background checks. I do not believe that mechanical function bans are... The Polack MSgt Jan 2018 #46

Banning assault rifles thbobby Jan 2018 #47

Hunting is not the only legitimate use of a firearm, and the opinion of some hunters... Marengo Jan 2018 #50

Excellent post Msgt... Docreed2003 Jan 2018 #128

"Guage" is a rference of how many round ball, of cast lead, could be cast from a pound of lead. oneshooter Jan 2018 #39

Thanks for info! thbobby Jan 2018 #40

Absolutely opposed to a handgun ban ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #2

Guns are a cause of deaths. sharedvalues Dec 2017 #3

Lots of things are a cause of death ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #4

No constitutional protection for any gun let alone hand guns outside of a Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #5

There's lots of pre-Heller case law ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #7

Once and for all? Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #14

Sure, once and for all ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #15

Post the language, and yes I agree within the restriction of a militia Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #17

Here's the language ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #19

Not only does it go out of it's way to limit to a militia, it was clearly the intent of the Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #20

I guess we'll agree to disagree ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #21

I don't think this argument works from a couple of perspectives Pope George Ringo II Jan 2018 #33

"It is plain English" So is the Federal law that governs militias: friendly_iconoclast Dec 2017 #22

So you acknowledge the requirement the "militia" stipulation be satisfied for this blanket right? Eliot Rosewater Dec 2017 #23

Not at all- I merely pointed out that your view of 'the militia' isn't the legally binding one friendly_iconoclast Jan 2018 #44

Here are some documents concerning the 2nd amendment, written much closer to the time it was drafted tortoise1956 Jan 2018 #57

truth twisting rawle & story into individual rkba jimmy the one Jan 2018 #86

Nice job of selective editing... tortoise1956 Jan 2018 #93

tortoise' twisted pretzel logic jimmy the one Jan 2018 #95

pretzel logic take II jimmy the one Jan 2018 #96

secession, invalid; states appeal to 2ndA, invalid; jimmy the one Jan 2018 #98

pretzel logic take III jimmy the one Jan 2018 #99

look what you started discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #105

Hey, it's been informative! tortoise1956 Jan 2018 #168

I enjoyed the Escher reference discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #169

Some addiotional information: tortoise1956 Jan 2018 #94

pretzel logic take IV jimmy the one Jan 2018 #100

Jeez, it's hard to figure out where to start tortoise1956 Jan 2018 #167

pretzel logic take V jimmy the one Feb 2018 #174

pretzel logic take VI, plus footstick alert jimmy the one Feb 2018 #176

chapter 13, A View of the Constitution, 1825 or 1829 jimmy the one Feb 2018 #178

pro gun fallacies on this thread jimmy the one Jan 2018 #87

Ill ask you yet again, where has this interpretation been enforced? Marengo Jan 2018 #28

Careful with that... J_William_Ryan Jan 2018 #52

The "militia" of the 2A is everyone n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #54

So true. Scalia was an idealogue and a tool of billionaires. Koches funded his law school at GMU. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #120

Not true shenmue Jan 2018 #51

Which part is not true? N/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #53

amen! I dont hunt but I like target shooting in my own back yard (the forest).. samnsara Jan 2018 #152

won't happen - gun owners love their guns more than life itself. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #6

It won't happen ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #9

sometimes, the majority is simply wrong. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #10

Of course ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #11

Hopefully not happen Timewas Dec 2017 #13

Because there is no public support for a handgun ban? Nt hack89 Dec 2017 #8

No. And it's this kind of sentiment that allows the NRA to flourish. Chemisse Dec 2017 #12

Very good point ClarendonDem Dec 2017 #16

I've got some ranchers in the family Pope George Ringo II Jan 2018 #34

Interesting. It seems the fear of losing one's guns is a powerful driving force. Chemisse Jan 2018 #35

No way. Ban guns that are designed to hurt people. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #65

Question: yagotme Jan 2018 #82

Single shot weapons only sharedvalues Jan 2018 #64

Snakes sometimes take more than one shot to hit them, bears sometimes more than one to kill Pope George Ringo II Jan 2018 #80

First off, thanks for acknowledging the limitation of your knowledge of the terminology better Jan 2018 #36

Ban semi-automatics sharedvalues Jan 2018 #66

No. Straw Man Jan 2018 #83

I can't help but appreciate the irony that this better Jan 2018 #84

cowpoo baloney jimmy the one Jan 2018 #90

So Bill Clinton was wrong? Straw Man Jan 2018 #91

Bear in mind the name 'NRA' is to some people what 'George Soros' and/or 'Saul Alinsky' is to others friendly_iconoclast Jan 2018 #92

"We" meaning "Me and the three others that recc'd my OP"? Gonna need more than that... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2017 #18

We that care about the lives of kids in cities sharedvalues Jan 2018 #67

Moral panic-mongers have always used children in their propaganda friendly_iconoclast Jan 2018 #85

I bet sharesunited would have recc'd it, if he/she were here. ileus Jan 2018 #89

Who us this "we"? Not those of us who want to pick up seats in 2018 kelly1mm Dec 2017 #24

And do we want a pony or sailboat to go with that? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #25

I LIKE my gun.. samnsara Jan 2018 #26

Yes but you are complicit in kids deaths by gun sharedvalues Jan 2018 #68

You may want a handgun ban, but you aren't going to get it Lurks Often Jan 2018 #32

It's Monday, a new year and a good time to answer again discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #38

Inglewood is a great example of who is hurt by guns sharedvalues Jan 2018 #69

Thanks for the reply discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #72

Handguns kill people sharedvalues Jan 2018 #73

I do respect the pro-restriction folks... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #74

Real men and women answer questions... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #75

And if you do get a ban, oneshooter Jan 2018 #41

Easy, the same way the ban will be passed into law... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #42

I really do not expect an answer to this question. oneshooter Jan 2018 #48

You really don't catch the "ban them all drift" do you? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #49

They lso have no iea how much the cost will be. oneshooter Jan 2018 #55

You should be ashamed of yourself... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #56

Not really. oneshooter Jan 2018 #58

Well, of course... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #59

I haven't seen any guns on the streets. Have you? aikoaiko Jan 2018 #60

I'd sure do my part. yagotme Jan 2018 #61

Of course you will insist on a full 3 generation background check with fingerprints and blood sample oneshooter Jan 2018 #62

Pretty "cold" outside now. yagotme Jan 2018 #63

Nah. Id take a ban. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #71

And how would you enforce and PAY for it? oneshooter Jan 2018 #77

Gun manufacturers can pay. Like tobacco companies did. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #157

Not how it works. oneshooter Jan 2018 #161

Asked question. Got good answer. Didn't like answer. Changed question. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #173

" if handguns are banned, their fair market value will drop " oneshooter Feb 2018 #175

Well, take it then, take it somewhere else discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #154

Yup. A street gun in Chicago shot a kid a few months ago sharedvalues Jan 2018 #70

Oh. You don't really mean "guns on the streets", you mean... aikoaiko Jan 2018 #79

Ummm, NOOOO! Kajun Gal Jan 2018 #76

What is your definition of an " assault rifles " oneshooter Jan 2018 #81

Lol. Good luck with that. bearsfootball516 Jan 2018 #78

Simple, because self defense firearms are actually designed to save lives. ileus Jan 2018 #88

"We want a handgun ban." Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #97

Something Else That Will Never Happen SoCalMusicLover Jan 2018 #102

"Gun humper"? Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #103

It is ALL he can do. n/t oneshooter Jan 2018 #104

You started the name calling (gr****er) And you apparently love guns sharedvalues Jan 2018 #107

I'm not American Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #109

Yes, sorry to say. That position gets Americans in cities killed. Ban semiautos and handguns. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #118

Do you support... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #130

Now this is about 'sovereignity'? Please. Guns kill Americans. We must stop that. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #134

Because we... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #135

Guns kill people. Do you support people and kids getting killed? sharedvalues Jan 2018 #141

My guns... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #146

Does owning a car mean you support drunk drivers killing people? EX500rider Jan 2018 #165

Me and those who care about American lives. Which you apparently do not. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #106

My legally... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #110

Yes, if you reject gun control, you are complicit in gun deaths. Single-shot rifles only. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #116

You are a great gift... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #131

Gun lovers are complicit in American shootings. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #133

"weak people" discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #136

Correct. Semiautos are designed to kill people. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #140

Please get past the idea that laws protect anyone n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #142

Laws are used to define the legal/illegality of a thing/activity. yagotme Jan 2018 #144

Real men. Straw Man Jan 2018 #145

I am primarily... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #147

By your extreme... Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #150

Would you support a government mandate restricting the amount of meat consumed by Americans? Marengo Jan 2018 #148

Less gun deaths only if we get them from people that shouldnt have them OU65802 Jan 2018 #101

False on both. Fewer guns, fewer deaths. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #108

there is no such data gejohnston Jan 2018 #111

Yup- gun industry is AFRAID of the data. They know what it will show. So they banned govt gun data. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #113

Post removed Post removed Jan 2018 #117

Ban handguns, semiautos. Donald Trump is the racist authoritarian and you are losing credibility. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #119

Are you familiar with the CDC's report sarisataka Jan 2018 #121

Yes. But the point is the gun industry was SO SCARED, they stopped research for 21 years sharedvalues Jan 2018 #122

You are not familiar with the report then sarisataka Jan 2018 #123

The report shows data is missing. Because GOP is afraid and banned data. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #125

Simple question sarisataka Jan 2018 #126

Of course, if multiple studies with high levels of evidence (Canada shows handgun laws work) sharedvalues Jan 2018 #127

It nicely summarizes how the GOP has stopped gun research they are afraid of. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #124

Also, if you reject gun control, you're complicit in gun deaths. Sorry. Americans die due to guns. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #115

If you reject drug control/bans, you're complicit in drug deaths. Sorry. Americans die due to yagotme Jan 2018 #138

Guns kill people. Heroin kills people. Both should be banned sharedvalues Jan 2018 #139

Swimming pools kill people. Cars kill people. yagotme Jan 2018 #143

Heroin IS banned! Marengo Jan 2018 #149

And there is your proof sarisataka Jan 2018 #153

But it would be different with guns because... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #155

Yep, all it takes is one law and POOF, problem eliminated entirely and for forever. Marengo Jan 2018 #164

GOP and NRA BANNED data. They are afraid of it. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #158

Show the data Puha Ekapi_2 Jan 2018 #112

See above Washington Post article - GOP threatened CDC, who stopped funding gun research. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #114

Possibly a case of reading comprehension discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #156

Selective quoting. Source for GOP/NRA data fear is above. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #159

Here's a bit of "selective quoting" for you discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #163

"False on both. Fewer guns, fewer deaths." Actually, no. EX500rider Jan 2018 #166

Dump the Russia sponsored NRA RainCaster Jan 2018 #129

Wow! Lokilooney Jan 2018 #160

Fuck that shit. n/t X_Digger Jan 2018 #132

I often include a persuasive or eloquent quote in a post discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2018 #137

I LIKE and plan on keeping my handguns.... samnsara Jan 2018 #151

If you are not for handgun restrictions (like Canada)-you're complicit. Sadly. sharedvalues Jan 2018 #172

Thanks, but I'll be keeping mine Alea Jan 2018 #162

After some thought - don't think so. nt hack89 Jan 2018 #170

Who are "We"? n/t oneshooter Jan 2018 #171

Instead... TwistOneUp Feb 2018 #177