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discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
72. I feel we've discussed this before but thanks the exchange
Sun Feb 12, 2017, 11:36 AM
Feb 2017


Scalia did write the opinion and AFAIK led the discussion but the interpretation that the right applies to individuals was shared by all 9 justices. From the Breyer dissent:
"In interpreting and applying this Amendment, I take as a starting point the following four propositions, based on our precedent and today’s opinions, to which I believe the entire Court subscribes:

(1) The Amendment protects an "individual" right—i.e., one that is separately possessed, and may be separately enforced, by each person on whom it is conferred."


As I see it, all human rights are attributes of humanity innate in each instance of that humanity. In dealings with others and groups to which those others are a part, said rights may either be respected or not. It is fundamentally correct and good to respect the rights of everyone. Failing to respect rights is not a good act.

As it says in the Declaration, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...". Groups, for example governments and militias, do not have rights either apart from or greater than than members. The circumstances leading to the Declaration were a perfect storm of highlights for the founders to enable for them clarity on the nature of man and his rights and the relation of those rights to governments.

You suggest that the first half of the 2A was "dismissed". Your opinion, if I understand correctly, is that the RKBA exists solely for the protection of exercise by a militia. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.) From that I infer you see restrictions as comparable to government exercise of just powers like setting occupancy limits on venues for the safety of the people.

That is a lofty ideal but one which is counter to fundamental rights. The fundamental rights expressed in the Declaration are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. My happiness is based largely on being able to provide for my family. My commitment to that is not up for compromise. I limit my risks to that end and I view that as my most basic duty. How is my liberty and my commitment protected by a government usurpation of rights needed a task for which I am most directly concerned and most basically suited?

Self-defense while a sad necessity is not evil. There is no need for a government to punish a crime with the death of the perpetrator but self-defense is not a punishment. The victim of an attack where the presence of serious danger is obvious does not attack as judge, jury and executioner. He acts to stop the attack and preserve his own life.

If I don't use the most effective means to protect my own life, aren't I just a little bit complicit if I am killed?

The right to life implies a right to self-defense. The 2A explains that the RKBA MUST be protected because the people must be relied upon for militia participation. The Constitution is a federal document. The union of the states are its focus. How exactly can one be fit for infantry duty apart from a basic skill at arms?

Does a federal protection of an individual right limit the exercise of that right to only its purpose noted? Justice Breyer does not (AFAIK) deny that A purpose of the RKBA is self-defense. He claims that that purpose is not afforded 2A protection.
Of course you can AJT Feb 2017 #1
OK so here's my thoughts. hollowdweller Feb 2017 #80
Some lever actions hold 7 (or so), yagotme Feb 2017 #189
Yes, but only if you can't read English DuckBurp Feb 2017 #2
The Founders and the SCOTUS disagree gejohnston Feb 2017 #7
Actually, I think you're wrong, but here's a Valentine anyway. DuckBurp Feb 2017 #56
what is the purpose of the wincest Feb 2017 #58
To enumerate some natural rights, yagotme Feb 2017 #190
Absolutely. pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #3
Thanks for the link. Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #4
You are most welcome! NT pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #5
Great Article Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #10
:-) pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #14
on the first, gejohnston Feb 2017 #6
Support the Second Amendment does not mean supporting Scalia's version of it. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #8
Can we support the Democratic party version? Obama's version? hack89 Feb 2017 #20
That was actually an echo of the Scalia version. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #23
So the party platform is RW on the 2A? hack89 Feb 2017 #65
You are asking for the ideal versus reality. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #68
So no state ever properly enforced the 2A? hack89 Feb 2017 #69
Heller created precedent. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #70
Of course not all men were actually equal hack89 Feb 2017 #74
Heller indeed has been an expansion of rights. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #77
That makes no sense hack89 Feb 2017 #78
The hysteria that drives sales will never stop. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #79
Can you name a single AWB that was ruled unconstitutional? hack89 Feb 2017 #82
What I said is that no regulations will be found reasonable. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #83
But that is not happening due to court rulings hack89 Feb 2017 #84
You avoided his. When and where has private gun ownership been strictly tied to militia membership? Marengo Feb 2017 #126
Prior to Heller, this concept of individual self-defense outside the home guillaumeb Feb 2017 #127
Oh, a smoke screen is it? Let's try again: When and where has a Federal court ruled that militia... Marengo Feb 2017 #128
More avoidance? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #129
Are you then arguing that voting is not a universal right.? hack89 Feb 2017 #132
What did Scalia mean by original intent? eom guillaumeb Feb 2017 #133
"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." hack89 Feb 2017 #134
It is obviously clear to gun owners and gun lobbyists. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #136
It is mainstream within the Democratic party. hack89 Feb 2017 #138
Was he a "hack" on Texas v Johnson, Maryland v King, Brown v Entertainment, Florida v Jardine... Marengo Feb 2017 #145
What happened to the rest of the Amendment? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #156
No - this is the version you can find in the Democratic party platform hack89 Feb 2017 #161
Intentionally or not, you redacted 1/2 of the Amendment. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #168
So how do you explain the party platform? hack89 Feb 2017 #169
Do I detect avoidance? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #170
Just pointing out that the NRA and Scalia are irrelevant hack89 Feb 2017 #171
Allow me to help you: guillaumeb Feb 2017 #172
So? It still protects and individual right. hack89 Feb 2017 #174
And the Constitution predates the Democratic Party. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #175
Ok. hack89 Feb 2017 #182
Whole lotta comma's in there, yagotme Feb 2017 #191
Two interdependent clauses, and one modifies the other. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #197
I was referring to the original text you quoted. yagotme Feb 2017 #199
A displaced modifier? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #200
Sometimes, when you read something Yoda-like, yagotme Feb 2017 #203
And with you also. eom guillaumeb Feb 2017 #204
Are you seriously trying to argue that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #154
When and where has a Federal court ruled that militia membership is a prerequisite for the private.. Marengo Feb 2017 #135
More avoidance. I understand that you cannot answer without guillaumeb Feb 2017 #137
When or where has a Federal court ruled that Militia membership is a prerequisite for the private... Marengo Feb 2017 #139
In reality, what is understood is that your position stands utterly unsubstantiated as you... Marengo Feb 2017 #146
Your question has nothing to do with open carry, or concealed carry, or supposed self-defense. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #147
God God, what a comedy. You're going hide behind THAT? Where's the evidence I asked for? Marengo Feb 2017 #149
The post, and my responses, concerned Heller. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #150
What do you mean by "dishonest redaction"? Marengo Feb 2017 #151
That should be obvious. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #152
Can you provide evidence that it is otherwise? Marengo Feb 2017 #153
Do you read the Amendment and decide for yourself what words really matter? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #155
All that really matters is the SC's decision, and in Heller a majority agreed the 2nd protects... Marengo Feb 2017 #158
Even Stevens and Breyer Indicated It Was An Individual Right Rucker61 Feb 2017 #218
Where does it say that the 2A was limited to whites only? hack89 Feb 2017 #131
Hate to break it to you, but you have been misinformed gejohnston Feb 2017 #21
Well, someone IS misinformed. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #24
From the link in #3 discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #26
So using your link, we can infer that the original intent was that possession of firearms guillaumeb Feb 2017 #31
The original intent... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #32
SO, reading your second statement, we can infer that Amendments can be amended? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #34
Are you also in favor of... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #36
You discounted my sarcasm and irony. eom guillaumeb Feb 2017 #40
Sorry about that chief discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #63
The purpose of the BoR... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #37
And that Second Amendment included two clauses. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #39
"Merely" prefatory? Straw Man Feb 2017 #60
Your attempt ignores the actual written wording of the Amendment. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #67
Why is it that somehow with you pro-restriction folks there is always a need for a "need"? discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #73
I referred to a literary need. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #76
I get that. We "gun-nuts" are just sensitive on that word "need" discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #87
Understood. I could have been clearer also. eom guillaumeb Feb 2017 #117
Wrong -- YOUR attempt does. Straw Man Feb 2017 #115
I feel we've discussed this before but thanks the exchange discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #72
A nice response. And polite as well. Something that is occasionally lacking in this venue. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #75
As to the points you raise and a thanks again for the polite exchange discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #86
Since you raised the points: guillaumeb Feb 2017 #89
Point by point discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #105
And yet the gun lobby is rapidly pushing to allow gun owners to carry everywhere. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #108
I think it's rather obvious what my preferred list of restrictions would cover discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #109
We both understand that a respectful dialogue is possible, guillaumeb Feb 2017 #116
Voting has nothing to do with it gejohnston Feb 2017 #44
Other states like Utah... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #64
Utah and Wyoming have something of a rivalry gejohnston Feb 2017 #118
Free white women, as a group, were universally prohibited from posessing firearms? Marengo Feb 2017 #207
Not explicitly. But neither were non-whites explicitly named. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #211
Free white women could not, and did not, possess firearms? Marengo Feb 2017 #212
When you start with original intent... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #213
My interpretation depends on a reading of the actual Amendment. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #214
Perhaps you can resolve the mystery discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #215
I am asserting that, in my opinion, guillaumeb Feb 2017 #220
Again I ask: discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #221
I believe in a complete and literal interpretation. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #223
Why Is Your Version Not Supported By History? Rucker61 Feb 2017 #224
Money talks. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #225
Some History Rucker61 Feb 2017 #227
This message was self-deleted by its author discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #226
Ignoring the question isn't an answer. To clarify: discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #228
Blame the Waite Court Rucker61 Feb 2017 #222
Where was militia service a prerequisite for the private ownership of firearms by free citizens? Marengo Feb 2017 #216
Free white women could not, and did not, possess firearms? Marengo Feb 2017 #230
But SCOTUS precedent... sarisataka Feb 2017 #27
There are no cases prior to Heller v. DC. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #35
So there was no precedent sarisataka Feb 2017 #50
No, the collective right of "the people", as opposed to wording such as guillaumeb Feb 2017 #66
Fourth Amendment sarisataka Feb 2017 #88
The term "the people" refers to the theory. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #90
You are avoiding the question sarisataka Feb 2017 #91
A collective right is not an absolute right. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #96
The only right that is arguably collective sarisataka Feb 2017 #99
Good points about the right of assembly. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #100
A GOP dominated Court is unfortunate sarisataka Feb 2017 #102
Good for your state. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #103
no it doesn't gejohnston Feb 2017 #42
Like Scalia, you ignore what you cannot explain in the individual vs group argument. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #43
Group rights simply do not exist gejohnston Feb 2017 #45
Again you reiterate Scalia's nonsensical excuse for scholarship. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #47
You haven't read any of the links, gejohnston Feb 2017 #48
You have always been a good debater, even if I don't agree with your premise... tortoise1956 Feb 2017 #120
We must agree to disagree on this. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #123
Where free white women as a group prohibited from owning firearms? Marengo Feb 2017 #140
In Plymouth, well before the Second Amendment, it appears that free blacks could own guns HoneyBadger Feb 2017 #180
An interesting article, but how does it relate to the Second Amendment? guillaumeb Feb 2017 #184
You seem reluctant to address this point discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #185
Provisions for an army had a 2 year limit. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #186
A 2 year limit does not preclude a standing army discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #187
My point about the army goes to original intent. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #188
Your point about the army is a conclusion you've drawn discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #206
As your "scholarship" is so superior, please provide an example of a Federal court ruling... Marengo Feb 2017 #143
So 200 plus years isn't precedent? ileus Feb 2017 #122
Other than Heller v. DC, what SCOTUS precedent guillaumeb Feb 2017 #125
When and where has a Federal court ruled that militia membership is a prerequisite for the private.. Marengo Feb 2017 #141
So you'd argue befor heller no individuals owned firearms? ileus Feb 2017 #148
Interesting question. trc Feb 2017 #9
Assault Weapons Ban Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #12
Same as 1994? yagotme Feb 2017 #192
CT and NY Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #198
The thrust of my post was on a national AWB, yagotme Feb 2017 #201
Old Liberal female here who supports the Second Amendment. democrank Feb 2017 #11
Mental Health Issues Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #13
Re. mental health issues, "progressives" reward lip service, ignore *complete* malfeasance. pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #16
Sorry, Berlin Vet, for my not-so-clear attempt regarding "mental health issues" democrank Feb 2017 #22
Out of the 4 you list, yagotme Feb 2017 #193
A progressive Democrat sarisataka Feb 2017 #15
Should Say It Often Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #17
I just can't wrap my head around the fact, yagotme Feb 2017 #194
I have to ask HAB911 Feb 2017 #237
Precrime is a regressive fantasy- all of us have to trust *everyone* we interact with friendly_iconoclast Feb 2017 #239
The very idea of "earning" or "qualifying for" trust is anti-rights n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #240
LOL! HAB911 Feb 2017 #241
YMMV discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #242
Agreed. yagotme Feb 2017 #243
As GE has mentioned, UBCs can only aspire to create very slight improvement. pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #18
Yes. Nt hack89 Feb 2017 #19
I don't agree with your last point about requiring guns to be in a safe, doc03 Feb 2017 #25
what would you recommend if there are children in the home? Phoenix61 Feb 2017 #29
on my to buy list once the grandkids are created gejohnston Feb 2017 #49
You could secure most of the guns in a safe. If you want doc03 Feb 2017 #51
My grandfathers M92 Winchester carries 13 rounds. It was built in 1911. oneshooter Feb 2017 #81
Sure you can. democratisphere Feb 2017 #28
Personally, I would like to make handguns illegal Phoenix61 Feb 2017 #30
If someone is shot and killed... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #33
No, but criminals aren't going to have Phoenix61 Feb 2017 #41
What's the purpose of having laws... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #167
If your local police were confiscating unregistered guns, yagotme Feb 2017 #195
No, if you support the NRA interpretation of the 2nd amendment you're a RW nutjob SecularMotion Feb 2017 #38
"There is not one Progressive or Liberal organization that supports weakening gun regulations." wincest Feb 2017 #59
Not progressive, not liberal SecularMotion Feb 2017 #61
what is your defination wincest Feb 2017 #62
Can we at least agree the 2A protects and individual right? Nt hack89 Feb 2017 #71
As long as you agree that the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. SecularMotion Feb 2017 #92
I have never believed otherwise hack89 Feb 2017 #93
Now you're just being delusional SecularMotion Feb 2017 #94
One issue has broad support hack89 Feb 2017 #95
Correct HAB911 Feb 2017 #238
Very few people are progressive, moderate or conservative on all issues. Kaleva Feb 2017 #46
Yes RoadhogRidesAgain Feb 2017 #52
As originally written, or as demagogued by the NRA et al? Zambero Feb 2017 #53
Yes, and it's not even difficult. HassleCat Feb 2017 #54
I'm sure this has been said a thousand times... sagetea Feb 2017 #55
Gun debate a microcosm of our national psychosis Worktodo Feb 2017 #57
No fuck all gun humpers!!! gopiscrap Feb 2017 #85
This is going to to be a difficult time for you, isn't it? hack89 Feb 2017 #98
i accept your offer wincest Feb 2017 #244
Reason For This Post Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #97
I checked your website and found no mention of guns SecularMotion Feb 2017 #104
ARC Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #106
Did you ask them the same question? SecularMotion Feb 2017 #107
No Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #110
Do they know you're using the name of their organization to pimp gun rights on DU? SecularMotion Feb 2017 #111
Feel Free Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #113
Are you attempting to silence that poster with a threat? Sure appears that way to me. Marengo Feb 2017 #142
He might be asking if... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #112
I See Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #114
Some posters here, yes. yagotme Feb 2017 #196
Yes... Mike Nelson Feb 2017 #101
Post removed Post removed Feb 2017 #119
You can't be a progressive and NOT support the 2A. ileus Feb 2017 #121
yes, especially if you consider that the Bill of Rights protects civil liberties. aikoaiko Feb 2017 #124
yes bluecollar2 Feb 2017 #130
In theory, yes. Reality is a tougher proposition. Paladin Feb 2017 #144
Depends. Can we agree on a definition for "Progressive Democrat" TXCritter Feb 2017 #157
Thanks Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #159
OK, an actual answer to your strategy question TXCritter Feb 2017 #160
Thanks for your response Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #165
Yes but now there's two of us TXCritter Feb 2017 #173
What Other Federally Protected Rights Rucker61 Feb 2017 #217
Yeah, and I'm as progressive as it comes but I'm like Scalia on this, a strict constructionist... brush Feb 2017 #162
Re: "...there is no regulation to keep them out of the hands of the mentally unstable." discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #163
How do the mass killers get them then, all thru the gun show loophole? We both know that's not true. brush Feb 2017 #164
- $$$ not being spent to keep the database updated, discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #166
They have to be adjudicated first. hack89 Feb 2017 #208
The founding fathers used handguns for more than target shooting HoneyBadger Feb 2017 #177
Oh, I forgot, those one shot jobs, right, certainly not full-auto uzis or even glock semi... brush Feb 2017 #179
Sure, if you are part of a well regulated militia. Nt HopeAgain Feb 2017 #176
License & registration MedusaX Feb 2017 #178
Thanks Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #181
A license good in every state in the union? Sounds good. hack89 Feb 2017 #183
heck yeah!!! samnsara Feb 2017 #202
Depends on what you call "support." Warpy Feb 2017 #205
So self defense is not a valid reason to own guns? Or recreation? hack89 Feb 2017 #209
what are military style weapons? wincest Feb 2017 #210
Sorry, but you've been conned re. "military style weapons". pablo_marmol Feb 2017 #219
Of course you can discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2017 #229
In paragraph #1, yagotme Feb 2017 #231
I'm Confused Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #232
No, if the conviction is actually registered in the system, yagotme Feb 2017 #233
You've got it right. Straw Man Feb 2017 #234
Thousands? Berlin Vet Feb 2017 #235
Not all turn aways are for criminal reasons, yagotme Feb 2017 #236
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Can you be a Progressive ...»Reply #72