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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: Yup, it's officially a moral panic: [View all]friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)5. A fisking of that site that will give the doctrinaire a sad:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117219362
Once again, the VPC hopes you are both easily frightened and poor at math
The Violence Policy Center has cranked up its evergreen moral panic
"Concealed Carry Killers"- and the gullible and doctrinaire fall for it:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22concealed+carry+killers%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com
http://www.democraticunderground.com/126210658
I couldn't be arsed to look for any 2014 or 2015 screeds from them, so let's
look at one from 2013:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023118413
Doing the math, and according to the VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357
deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.
Lets stipulate, for the sake of this argument, that all of those deaths were murders
even if they were not.
Now comes the part where the wheels fall off the panic mongering.
The lowest estimate I can find for the number of concealed handgun permit holders
in the US is 11.1 million- other figures cited were a high of 12.8 million but
I'll stick with the low one. Taking that number, and using the numbers given by the
VPC, we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit
holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole
Source for US murder rate:
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-1
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-januaryjune-2015/tables/table-3
Worse for the controllers, these numbers mean that those 'concealed carry killers'
kill at a lower rate than does the populations of the UK, France,
Australia (where have I heard that name recenly?), Ireland, Canada...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/03/comparing-england-or-uk-murder-rates.html
and at par with Norway and Sweden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172193622#post8
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172193622#post19
Once again, the VPC hopes you are both easily frightened and poor at math
The Violence Policy Center has cranked up its evergreen moral panic
"Concealed Carry Killers"- and the gullible and doctrinaire fall for it:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22concealed+carry+killers%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com
http://www.democraticunderground.com/126210658
Concealed Carry Tragedies Include Workplace Shooting, Six-Year-Old Unintentionally Killing Father.
Washington, DC Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows. Since there is no comprehensive record keeping of fatal incidents involving concealed carry permit holders, this tally most likely represents a small fraction of the actual total.
Washington, DC Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows. Since there is no comprehensive record keeping of fatal incidents involving concealed carry permit holders, this tally most likely represents a small fraction of the actual total.
I couldn't be arsed to look for any 2014 or 2015 screeds from them, so let's
look at one from 2013:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023118413
Research Details Hundreds of Examples of Innocent Lives Lost to Concealed Carry Killers"
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 27, 2013
3:18 PM
CONTACT: Violence Policy Center
Avery Palmer, 202-822-8200 x104, apalmer@vpc.org
As Zimmerman Case Begins, VPC Research Details Hundreds of Examples of Innocent Lives Lost to Concealed Carry Killers
WASHINGTON - June 27 - Washington, DC As the trial opens this week over the deadly shooting of Trayvon Martin, research shows that similar fatal incidents are shockingly common. The Violence Policy Center has uncovered hundreds of examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns. These incidents resulted in 516 deaths including 24 mass shootings and the killing of 14 law enforcement officers.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 27, 2013
3:18 PM
CONTACT: Violence Policy Center
Avery Palmer, 202-822-8200 x104, apalmer@vpc.org
As Zimmerman Case Begins, VPC Research Details Hundreds of Examples of Innocent Lives Lost to Concealed Carry Killers
WASHINGTON - June 27 - Washington, DC As the trial opens this week over the deadly shooting of Trayvon Martin, research shows that similar fatal incidents are shockingly common. The Violence Policy Center has uncovered hundreds of examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns. These incidents resulted in 516 deaths including 24 mass shootings and the killing of 14 law enforcement officers.
Doing the math, and according to the VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357
deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.
Lets stipulate, for the sake of this argument, that all of those deaths were murders
even if they were not.
Now comes the part where the wheels fall off the panic mongering.
The lowest estimate I can find for the number of concealed handgun permit holders
in the US is 11.1 million- other figures cited were a high of 12.8 million but
I'll stick with the low one. Taking that number, and using the numbers given by the
VPC, we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit
holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole
Source for US murder rate:
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-1
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-januaryjune-2015/tables/table-3
Worse for the controllers, these numbers mean that those 'concealed carry killers'
kill at a lower rate than does the populations of the UK, France,
Australia (where have I heard that name recenly?), Ireland, Canada...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/03/comparing-england-or-uk-murder-rates.html
and at par with Norway and Sweden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172193622#post8
Read it again ... slooowly. No debunking is involved
Debunking would indicate the OP was trying to prove the VPC wrong with it's claimed numbers.
The OP accepts all of the VPC numbers as is, with no argument.
They then compare it to the factual number of concealed carriers in the country. That's not debunking, it's what we call "Math"
Debunking would indicate the OP was trying to prove the VPC wrong with it's claimed numbers.
The OP accepts all of the VPC numbers as is, with no argument.
They then compare it to the factual number of concealed carriers in the country. That's not debunking, it's what we call "Math"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172193622#post19
9 years of data...less then 100 deaths a year, including suicides...
"Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows.
...
In the vast majority of the 684 incidents documented in Concealed Carry Killers (585, or 86 percent), the concealed carry permit holder either committed suicide (293), has already been convicted (222), perpetrated a murder-suicide (53), or was killed in the incident (17). Of the 74 cases currently pending, the vast majority (64) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 25 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder."
http://www.vpc.org/press/latest-concealed-carry-tragedies-include-workplace-shooting-six-year-old-unintentionally-killing-father/
Once incident in DC was about a Texas permit holder who killed 13 with a shotgun at a Navy Yard in DC.
"Alexis purchased his Remington 870 shotgun and two boxes of shells from Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Newington, Virginia just two days before the shooting. Alexis had a concealed carry permit from Texas and had previously held one issued in the state of Washington."
"Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows.
...
In the vast majority of the 684 incidents documented in Concealed Carry Killers (585, or 86 percent), the concealed carry permit holder either committed suicide (293), has already been convicted (222), perpetrated a murder-suicide (53), or was killed in the incident (17). Of the 74 cases currently pending, the vast majority (64) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 25 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder."
http://www.vpc.org/press/latest-concealed-carry-tragedies-include-workplace-shooting-six-year-old-unintentionally-killing-father/
Once incident in DC was about a Texas permit holder who killed 13 with a shotgun at a Navy Yard in DC.
"Alexis purchased his Remington 870 shotgun and two boxes of shells from Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Newington, Virginia just two days before the shooting. Alexis had a concealed carry permit from Texas and had previously held one issued in the state of Washington."
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"I bet the percentage is actually quite miniscule." It is - see post #5
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#6
And no good is done by attemting to discuss murder in context of small sub-groups
guillaumeb
Aug 2016
#19
This context-free burbling re. '30,000 dead' is a good example of why you're failing.
pablo_marmol
Aug 2016
#48
We should catalog Thought-terminating cliches. One of the ones I notice most in GD is
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2016
#68
But they *do* kill on occasion. Are those killed by cars and drugs less dead than shooting victims?
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#25
You're evading. What if I was the target? Would using deadly force to stop that person be bad?
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2016
#52
Fine words, indeed- but they do not answer the question asked. Here it is again:
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#62
The claim that Zimmerman exercised a right has no bearing to anyone outside of the case.
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2016
#76
Is this the official NRA fairy story version of the murder of Trayvon Martin?
guillaumeb
Aug 2016
#80
The character of persons in particular cases have no bearing on rights in other cases
friendly_iconoclast
Sep 2016
#87
Wow! That's a pretty "creative" interpretation of the actual evidence and testimony
DonP
Sep 2016
#89
If I'm attacked without provocation and fear grave bodily injury do I have a right to
Nuclear Unicorn
Sep 2016
#114
For the sake of argument, let us concede that your estimate of him is correct.
friendly_iconoclast
Sep 2016
#91
If someone, without provocation, threatened me with grave injury or death would I
Nuclear Unicorn
Sep 2016
#97
I wish my other interlocutor would answer the question. He's made a point to answer so many other
Nuclear Unicorn
Sep 2016
#100
You are denying difference in circumstances, which prevents effective action to prevent those deaths
krispos42
Sep 2016
#129
Your collective guilt-tripping and appeals to emotion seem not to be gaining traction
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#13
I agree - at least 2/3 are in that example...suicide and all. Guess most are in fact, as others
jmg257
Aug 2016
#41
Remarkable few of which were caused by by the group under discussion
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#15
A thoughtful reply to a question not asked- and I should have said CNG vehicles, not electric ones
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2016
#29
While around 1200 criminals are responsible for over 400 deaths in Chicago alone every year.
jmg257
Aug 2016
#67
And they see no_hypocrisy in arguing from a position of ignorance........
pablo_marmol
Sep 2016
#108