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jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
46. Only 1% - 6% voted unanimous for G.Washington
Mon Apr 4, 2016, 10:33 AM
Apr 2016

Justice Story, circa 1830: "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

TeddyR, 2016: This is the only place where Story refers to "the citizens," and he refers to them as the "citizens" of a "republic." The citizens of a republic are all those eligible to vote, regardless of fitness for militia duty, and "citizens" simply cannot mean the same thing as "militia." "Citizens" might mean the same thing in this sentence as "the people," but you would have to suspend disbelief to think that "citizens" and "militia" are both terms for "militia."

Which citizens could VOTE circa 1789: only white Protestant males who owned property could vote. Not women, not poor people, not indentured servants, not Catholics and Jews, not slaves from Africa or Native Americans.
"Women, like slaves and servants, were defined by their dependence," says historian Michael Schudson. "Citizenship belonged only to those who were masters of their own lives." Because of these restrictions, only about 6 percent of the population of the brand-new United States chose George Washington to be the country's first president in...
In 1789, only white, land owning men had the ability to vote in most states. Since the Civil War, we have amended the Constitution to prohibit limiting voting rights based on gender, race, age...
http://countrystudies.us/united-states/government-18.htm

Yeah, citizens & people & militia were often used synonymously, as well as in the 2nd amendment. I don't have to suspend disbelief that 'the people' was used in the 2ndA differently than in the other amendments {also cause I don't disbelieve it}

teddy: it appears to me that you concede that the Second Amendment at the least protects the right of every able bodied male of militia age (assuming the Amendment is restricted to males) to keep and bear arms. Is that correct?

No, not anymore. It used to apply to only some or most of them white able bodied males (not sure about catholics & jews). Only about 20% of the 3 million population circa 1790 were white males of militia age. Ergo only about 600,000 had rkba, if that.
And evidently only about 180,000 white protestant males voted for George Washington for president.

Geez, not even that accd' wiki; election held dec 15 1787-jan 10, 1788, over 25 days:
Federalist electors {for GWashington} 39,624 90.5%
Anti-Federalist electors 4,158 9.5%
Total 43,782 100.0%


That above should demonstrate how {un}popular the anti-fed movement was, which supported including in state's right to bear arms provisions, 'in defense of themselves as well as the state'.

(a) Only 6 of the 10 states casting electoral votes chose electors by any form of popular vote.
(b) Less than 1.3% of the population voted: the 1790 Census would count a total population of 3.0 million with a free population of 2.4 million and 600,000 slaves in those states casting electoral votes in this election.
(c) Those states that did choose electors by popular vote had varying restrictions on suffrage via property requirements.


..you would have to suspend disbelief to think that "citizens" and "militia" are both terms for "militia."

They were used synonymously as we have just seen, yes? You are imputing to today's vernacular.

A well regulated militia? [View all] flamin lib Mar 2016 OP
If we were to live in a fact based world randr Mar 2016 #1
Please elaborate TeddyR Mar 2016 #2
Oh... let's see... 2naSalit Mar 2016 #6
As the individual below pointed out TeddyR Mar 2016 #11
After thinking about this TeddyR Mar 2016 #12
depends on which Bundy situation gejohnston Mar 2016 #15
Blocked traffic and threatened to murder folks with their guns? stone space Mar 2016 #21
illegally occupying or blocking public use of public land gejohnston Mar 2016 #24
I'll start randr Mar 2016 #9
Human beings are flawed... CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #3
Heller clarified that the Second Amendment TeddyR Mar 2016 #4
Heller "clarified" about as much as Bowers v Hardwick "clarified". stone space Mar 2016 #22
I'm sorry you don't like the fact TeddyR Mar 2016 #25
The 2A protects an individual right hack89 Mar 2016 #5
Do you have any comment on those sarisataka Mar 2016 #7
Bran muffins JonathanRackham Mar 2016 #8
Before the 2A, there was a guarantee to life and liberty. ileus Mar 2016 #10
Your logic is more cantilevered than an old railroad bridge... Eleanors38 Mar 2016 #13
Since the 'well regulated militia' has been recreated into the jmg257 Mar 2016 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #16
Too many people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment *because* of the "well regulated militia" term... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #17
Nice commentary but you missed the whole point of the OP. nt flamin lib Mar 2016 #18
No, your point was to try to lump all gun owners into a "militia", which is a false analogy. n/t Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #20
british scholars disagreed with heller jimmy the one Mar 2016 #30
remedial history for ghosts jimmy the one Mar 2016 #31
Why do you keep citing Miller? TeddyR Mar 2016 #32
It takes a militia jimmy the one Mar 2016 #33
I'd like to see some support TeddyR Mar 2016 #37
Story's full quote, parsed jimmy the one Mar 2016 #40
Thanks TeddyR Mar 2016 #42
You do Justice Story a disservice TeddyR Mar 2016 #43
Only 1% - 6% voted unanimous for G.Washington jimmy the one Apr 2016 #46
Here's a bit, when Congress was actually discussing the article that became the 2nd amendment... jmg257 Mar 2016 #41
Once again you twist Story's words tortoise1956 Apr 2016 #45
blackstone wasn't individual 'have arms' man jimmy the one Apr 2016 #47
Seems like you are confusing the military (armies, Navy) with the militia. jmg257 Mar 2016 #35
I think you are confused about who "the PEOPLE" are... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #38
The Militia was formed from the body of the people, so yes - the people had their rights jmg257 Mar 2016 #39
You seem to confuse the militia with the individuals who may nor may not be in it. ManiacJoe Mar 2016 #19
A Well-Regulated Militia stone space Mar 2016 #23
Cartoons, the last resort of a poster who has nothing original of their own to say. Lurks Often Mar 2016 #26
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #28
Aww, do you have a sadz? Lurks Often Mar 2016 #29
It is understandable... beevul Mar 2016 #34
That one has less self control then most Lurks Often Mar 2016 #36
Amazing how this "art/journalism" form has remained so static in this day and age. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2016 #44
Members of a Christian militia accused of plotting an antigovernment uprising were acquitted... discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2016 #27
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»A well regulated militia?»Reply #46