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jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
30. british scholars disagreed with heller
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:02 AM
Mar 2016

ghost: The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. Sir William Blackstone described this right as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

British scholars: ... reconstructing the historical meaning of the right to “have arms” deserves better than Petitioners’ selective reading and mischaracterization of Blackstone’s reference to the “natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” the 1768 Boston Town Council’s militia resolve, and the grievance against Thomas Gage http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_09_10_08_1521_RespondentAmCuEnglishHistoriansnew.authcheckdam.pdf

Perhaps you've never seen the amici curiae which a consortium of 21 british scholars sent to the scalia led heller court, telling him how wrong he was regarding the british 'have arms' decree. So much so that scalia left out mentioning his 1689 'have arms' decree argument in 2011 McDonald.
I think this consortium of british scholars knows more about the have arms decree than ghost in the machine and wiki's pro gun spin & whatever rightwing blogs he cites; blackstone's remarks above were militia centric, and on English game laws were misunderstood since remarks occurred after ~1671 game laws had changed.

BRIEF FOR ENGLISH/EARLY AMERICAN HISTORIANS AS AMICI CURIAE IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENTS [city of chicago]
http://www.oyez.org/sites/default/files/cases/briefs/pdf/brief__08-1521__22.pdf
Amici simply urge that the Court base its decision on a well informed study of historical facts, which demonstrates that armed self-defense of the home by individuals acting for private interests was not the right enshrined in the Second Amendment


In {DC} v. Heller (2008), the {US Supreme} Court examined the English Declaration of Rights of 1689, correctly finding that the right to “have arms” in Article VII is the basis of the right enshrined in the Second Amendment.
The Court also correctly recognized that the Second Amendment right to bear arms was an individual right to have and use arms for “self preservation and defense” as in its English predecessor.
However, contrary to discredited scholarship {to wit Joyce Malcolm} upon which Heller relied, the right to “have arms” embodied in the English Declaration of Rights did not intend to protect an individual’s right to possess, own, or use arms for private purposes such as to defend a home against burglars (what, in modern times, we mean when we use the term “self-defense”). Rather, it referred to a right to possess arms in defense of the realm. Accordingly, the right to own or use arms for private purposes is not a right deeply rooted in our nation’s tradition, and should not be incorporated as against the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.

The “have arms” provision in the English Declaration of Rights, which was later codified as the Bill of Rights, provided two protections to the individual.
First, the right to “have arms” gave certain persons (qualified Protestants) the right to possess arms to take part in defending the realm against enemies within (i.e., Catholics) as well as foreign invaders.
Second, the grant of a right to “have arms” was a compromise of a dispute over control of the militia that gave Parliament concurrent power (with the sovereign) over arming the landed gentry. It allowed Parliament to invoke its right of “self-preservation” and “resistance” should the sovereign usurp the laws, liberties, estates, and Protestant religion of the nation.


In no part of his Commentaries does Blackstone link the right of personal security with the possession of arms, nor does he cite the Declaration of Rights’ “have arms” provision in his discussion of personal security.
... In doing so, the Court relied heavily on the scholarship of Joyce Lee Malcolm. The overwhelming consensus among leading English historians, however, is that Malcolm’s work is flawed on this point. ...Amici, based on a wealth of scholarship, disagree with Malcolm’s conclusions. Contrary to Malcolm’s view, the “have arms” provision was the result of a political dispute over whether ultimate control over the militia


The {supreme} Court “throughout its history has freely exercised its power to reexamine the [historical] basis of constitutional decisions.” That the Heller decision is recent only weighs in favor of quick action by the Court to correct its error of historical interpretation

Amici Curiae are scholars and professional historians whose collective expertise covers the following areas: the history of Stuart England, the Restoration, the 1689 Glorious Revolution, the American Revolution, the Early Republic, American legal history, American Constitutional history, and Anglo-American history. Each has earned one or more advanced degrees in history, political science and/or law.

A well regulated militia? [View all] flamin lib Mar 2016 OP
If we were to live in a fact based world randr Mar 2016 #1
Please elaborate TeddyR Mar 2016 #2
Oh... let's see... 2naSalit Mar 2016 #6
As the individual below pointed out TeddyR Mar 2016 #11
After thinking about this TeddyR Mar 2016 #12
depends on which Bundy situation gejohnston Mar 2016 #15
Blocked traffic and threatened to murder folks with their guns? stone space Mar 2016 #21
illegally occupying or blocking public use of public land gejohnston Mar 2016 #24
I'll start randr Mar 2016 #9
Human beings are flawed... CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #3
Heller clarified that the Second Amendment TeddyR Mar 2016 #4
Heller "clarified" about as much as Bowers v Hardwick "clarified". stone space Mar 2016 #22
I'm sorry you don't like the fact TeddyR Mar 2016 #25
The 2A protects an individual right hack89 Mar 2016 #5
Do you have any comment on those sarisataka Mar 2016 #7
Bran muffins JonathanRackham Mar 2016 #8
Before the 2A, there was a guarantee to life and liberty. ileus Mar 2016 #10
Your logic is more cantilevered than an old railroad bridge... Eleanors38 Mar 2016 #13
Since the 'well regulated militia' has been recreated into the jmg257 Mar 2016 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #16
Too many people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment *because* of the "well regulated militia" term... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #17
Nice commentary but you missed the whole point of the OP. nt flamin lib Mar 2016 #18
No, your point was to try to lump all gun owners into a "militia", which is a false analogy. n/t Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #20
british scholars disagreed with heller jimmy the one Mar 2016 #30
remedial history for ghosts jimmy the one Mar 2016 #31
Why do you keep citing Miller? TeddyR Mar 2016 #32
It takes a militia jimmy the one Mar 2016 #33
I'd like to see some support TeddyR Mar 2016 #37
Story's full quote, parsed jimmy the one Mar 2016 #40
Thanks TeddyR Mar 2016 #42
You do Justice Story a disservice TeddyR Mar 2016 #43
Only 1% - 6% voted unanimous for G.Washington jimmy the one Apr 2016 #46
Here's a bit, when Congress was actually discussing the article that became the 2nd amendment... jmg257 Mar 2016 #41
Once again you twist Story's words tortoise1956 Apr 2016 #45
blackstone wasn't individual 'have arms' man jimmy the one Apr 2016 #47
Seems like you are confusing the military (armies, Navy) with the militia. jmg257 Mar 2016 #35
I think you are confused about who "the PEOPLE" are... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #38
The Militia was formed from the body of the people, so yes - the people had their rights jmg257 Mar 2016 #39
You seem to confuse the militia with the individuals who may nor may not be in it. ManiacJoe Mar 2016 #19
A Well-Regulated Militia stone space Mar 2016 #23
Cartoons, the last resort of a poster who has nothing original of their own to say. Lurks Often Mar 2016 #26
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #28
Aww, do you have a sadz? Lurks Often Mar 2016 #29
It is understandable... beevul Mar 2016 #34
That one has less self control then most Lurks Often Mar 2016 #36
Amazing how this "art/journalism" form has remained so static in this day and age. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2016 #44
Members of a Christian militia accused of plotting an antigovernment uprising were acquitted... discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2016 #27
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