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Deep13

(39,156 posts)
18. Not suggesting that non-Europeans can't be oppressed.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:02 PM
Mar 2014

I'm only wondering if what a European would consider oppression is the same as what an Arab would consider to be so. In France, Muslims--including women--protested rules restricting head coverings as state oppression. When I argued the point that you are making to my Middle East history instructor (who is neither an Arab nor a Muslim), she suggested that if society were to coerce women into uncovering their heads, how would it be different from requiring women to uncover their chests? It all depends on what the naturalized cultural norm is. She also drew the analogy to neck ties for men, to which I responded that I would be the first one to burn mine in the street. That might tie into what you are saying--is someone oppressed if she does not think that she is? A slave can be conditioned to love his chains. There are millions of working poor in this country who have been trained to defend capitalism and excoriate socialism. They clearly vote against their own interests. The question then becomes, what makes us think we know any better? Are we not simply normalizing capitalist secularism and projecting onto traditional religious societies. This is an important question because of the history of colonialism supported by intellectual Orientalism.

I don't doubt that women are often oppressed in the Muslim world, but it usually has little to do with their headgear. Frankly, that was never even an issue until the British and French made it the marker for the inferior, backward, non-European society. European imperialists tried to do away with the head coverings and Arabs, including some educated women, responded but insisting that headscarves and even veils were necessary for their culture. You should read Houda Sharawi's book on the subject. It is also clear that the debate over women's clothes was almost entirely an upperclass argument. Poor women and men had far more pressing problems. In the desert, both men and women wear head coverings because they have to. When I was in Jordan and Egypt in 2012, I wore an Arabic head covering because the sun and heat was so intense. Now urban men have been deprived of that and go about their business in European trousers and shirts with bare heads, suffering in the heat. Laws like those in Iran that give most of the power in the family to the husband are far more oppressive to women than their outfits. Yes, the penalties for immodesty in Saudi Arabia and to a lesser degree in Iran are monstrous. If those rules were based on race or religion, it would be considered a crime against humanity. So it is no less egregious because they are based on sex. But most of the Muslim would is not like Saudi Arabia.

Sorry. I just don't see how a niqab or burqa, being required to hide everything but your eyes Squinch Mar 2014 #1
Both extremes in this caters to either dressing to either attract and excite men or to prevent Nika Mar 2014 #4
They're not always required. Deep13 Mar 2014 #5
A necktie or a pair of pumps or a hajib is not comparable to being required to cover every Squinch Mar 2014 #8
Personally, I agree with you... Deep13 Mar 2014 #10
I don't accept that it is "usually" other women enforcing pathological levels of modesty. I Squinch Mar 2014 #11
Maybe. But people typically internalize the norms of their cultures. Deep13 Mar 2014 #12
Yes, and in those cultures, the norms are oppressive to women. Squinch Mar 2014 #13
Well, it's most cultures, but they differ by degree and nature. Deep13 Mar 2014 #14
A better question would be do people have to verbalize that they are oppressed to be oppressed: Squinch Mar 2014 #17
Not suggesting that non-Europeans can't be oppressed. Deep13 Mar 2014 #18
I am not suggesting coercing women to uncover their heads. I am suggesting NOT coercing them Squinch Mar 2014 #19
I never hear feminists telling women what to wear siligut Mar 2014 #2
perhaps, but isn't that an ad hominem attack? Deep13 Mar 2014 #6
From her blog: siligut Mar 2014 #7
Well, ad hominem means you are attacking the person, not the argument. Deep13 Mar 2014 #9
Good Conversation starter libodem Mar 2014 #3
The cartoon is a cartoon... Gormy Cuss Mar 2014 #15
Yes, it is as though S.E. Cupp was assigned to write about feminism siligut Mar 2014 #16
Latest Discussions»Alliance Forums»Feminists»cartoon: women's clothing...»Reply #18