Creative Speculation

Ace Acme

(1,464 posts)

234. You arfe imposing your phony conditions again

Reply to AtheistCrusader (Reply #233)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 03:31 PM

Oct 2013

You might as well claim that since the tail is not a leg, there's no elephant in the room.

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9/11 Debunked: "Molten Metal" Explained [View all] Logical Jan 2012 OP

Thank you for posting this video zappaman Jan 2012 #1

This is a video debunking the idea that the molten metal flow is thermite. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #2

Ha! zappaman Jan 2012 #3

Do you know what to debunk something means....? jesters Jan 2012 #4

Perhaps you should watch it. n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author Logical Jan 2012 #5

He misunderstood the nature of the OP video. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #7

speculation and sophistry does not a debunking make! wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #8

Bush said this about explosives Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2013 #55

Not hardly! wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #9

What's a channel rail, wildbill864? n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #10

well you can google it Bolo... wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #11

Just wondering if you knew what a channel rail was. n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #12

so you don't ? wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #13

I do know what a channel rail is. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #14

Post removed Post removed Jun 2013 #15

A video to debunk your debunking video gyroscope Jun 2013 #16

More gyroscope Jun 2013 #17

No more facts PLEASE! Politicalboi Jul 2013 #20

Um, perfectly reasonable that some windows would be blown out and not others. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #21

"air handling systems of the two towers had interconnections in the basement..." gyroscope Jul 2013 #22

Oh, I'm laughing all right. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #23

That's right Sherlock. gyroscope Jul 2013 #24

Which doesn't explain, again, the collapse top-down. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #25

How do you explain the ground level explosions? gyroscope Jul 2013 #26

They certainly weren't demolition charges. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #27

You are speculating gyroscope Jul 2013 #30

Well, certainly the con-edison substation had problems. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #31

Hairsplitting gyroscope Jul 2013 #33

It most certainly did not. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #34

First you tell me gyroscope Jul 2013 #35

You don't even understand what I am saying. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #36

This message was self-deleted by its author gyroscope Jul 2013 #37

Nanotechnology gyroscope Jul 2013 #38

And as I mentioned earlier, no thermite or thermate is visible burning in the building during AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #40

Are you an expert on nanothermite? gyroscope Jul 2013 #41

'I don't understand how it works, waaa waaah, so neither do you!' AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #42

Where do you think the molten metal came from, genius? gyroscope Jul 2013 #45

Fires and the friction of the collapse. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #47

That's a good one gyroscope Jul 2013 #49

Actually, good sized demo projects often have water sprayed on the rubble for some time. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #50

Also, keep in mind... AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #32

There was a jet fuel explosion in an elevator shaft William Seger Jul 2013 #28

Hey!!! greytdemocrat Jul 2013 #18

No only you. gyroscope Jul 2013 #19

Supeman has X-ray vision William Seger Jul 2013 #29

That's a nice fairy tale gyroscope Jul 2013 #39

So, your claim of "molten steel" is based on... William Seger Jul 2013 #43

Exactly. 'Glowing' is miles and miles short of 'molten'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #44

What do you think caused the glowing hot steel beams? gyroscope Jul 2013 #46

The pools of aluminium didn't heat the girders. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #48

pools of aluminum!? wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #56

What kind of metal do you think they were talking about when the claims of molten metal were made? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #57

no one offered evidence wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #58

Most of the eyewitnesses on film say 'molten metal', not 'molten steel'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #59

This message was self-deleted by its author wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #60

There's no need to test melted girders Ace Acme Oct 2013 #67

See post #68. AZCat Oct 2013 #69

OK, I read it again. It was as I said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #144

Iron burns in some situations. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #70

Right, the wrought iron fence across the street burst into flame last week. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #73

That's not even good sarcasm. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #74

Demonstrate the sulfur dioxide production Ace Acme Oct 2013 #75

Basic chemsitry. Gypsum board is CaSO₄·2H₂O AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #76

He ran multiple tests. Diesel fuel was one of them. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #78

It doesn't last long in that application. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #79

Refineries deal with Hydrogen Sulfide a lot Ace Acme Oct 2013 #80

By itself, no, but liberate the sulfide, and you have a problem. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #82

Even if you take the water out Ace Acme Oct 2013 #83

IN A REDUCING ATMOSPHERE. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #84

Neither you nor NIST has demonstrated the reducing atmosphere you claim Ace Acme Oct 2013 #87

Actually, the remains of the metal itself demonstrates it adequately for me. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #89

You don't see the circular reasoning there, I guess. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #93

Because it doesn't appear a credible objection. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #95

You have not demonstrated that SO2 is expected in the rubble Ace Acme Oct 2013 #99

You have yet to demonstrate molten steel for them to explain at all. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #101

9 PhDs and a FDNY Captain testified to melted steel or iron. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #103

All of whom could have gathered evidence of that. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #105

There are photos, there are samples. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #107

Not of slagged steel there aren't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #108

So now you're down to the last sliver, walking the plank. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #111

Yes, because you are using 'melted' deliberatedly when the correct word is eroded or corroded. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #113

The FEMA investigation said it was "intergranular melting" Ace Acme Oct 2013 #115

Astaneh's photos do not show melting. They show erosion. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #117

You didn't even look at the photo Ace Acme Oct 2013 #119

That beam is not slagged. It's eroded. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #121

"slagged" is a phony specification. It is partially "vaporized" nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #122

Tell me, what does a POOL of molten metal that is 'vaporized' look like? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #124

I never said there were pools of vaporized steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #126

What does a stalagmite of vaporized steel look like? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #128

You deliberately conflate 2 separate accounts to create false contradictions nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #130

No, I am not. I am using your own citation against you. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #132

Glanz's article and Astaneh's report support cutting Ace Acme Oct 2013 #134

No, they don't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #137

You didn't even look at the pictures, did you? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #140

Yes, and the picture you just cited is erosion. RUST. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #141

It's vaporized. That's what the NYT said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #142

They are wrong, or using imprecise language. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #152

I didn't say there were any pools of molten steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #153

Pools of molten steel was a topic of this thread fork, if you scroll up, before you barged in. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #155

The thread forked at #18, which was about mini-nukes Ace Acme Oct 2013 #157

I have looked at that photo you linked, plus the ones I provided, and about 10 more that neither of AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #159

The absence of slag is meaningless. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #161

You wouldn't get a stalagmite without slag. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #163

A witnesses's testimony is considered evidence in the fact-based community. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #164

Jones has been caught lying, and that is not an assay. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #165

Presence of melted steel is not an extraordinary claim Ace Acme Oct 2013 #168

You have yet to link a photo of slagged steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #169

Your demand for slag is a red herring. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #170

Slagged steel is the intermediary step between steel beams and the alleged stalagmite AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #171

The evidence of a steel stalagmite is the NYT article written by a PhD astrophysicist Ace Acme Oct 2013 #174

He says metal in one place, steel in the next, in that article. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #177

And you can't get past the fact that he saw metal and steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #178

I think he's mistaken. Or he made an assumption. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #181

You assume he's mistaken, because the fact is inconvenient to you. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #184

It's an incredible claim without any supporting evidence. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #186

There's nothing incredible about it. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #188

It is not evidenced by photos, and not apparently by samples either. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #190

It's evidenced by Dr. Astaneh's photos and by samples in the FEMA report Ace Acme Oct 2013 #192

You keep trying to play that card. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #194

Melted steel trumps "no molten steel" any day. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #196

So, the ingot doesn't exist then? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #197

A picture of it exists. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #199

Astaneh's photos do not show material that could have produced an alleged stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #200

You keep repeating that. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #201

No, the formerly molten ingot is not an assertion of fact. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #207

It's assertion of fact. The assertion might be wrong. You're very confused. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #208

Not my job. It's Jones's job to establish that it is real, and bring it to sources that can AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #211

His claims are consistent with claims of others. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #214

He hasn't provided what he purports to be the only phyiscal pieces of evidence AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #216

So contact Jones and prove that he CAN'T produce the sample of the melted iron. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #220

He's already a fool because he WON'T do it. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #221

How do you know he won't until you ask? You invent your facts. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #223

In 12 years he hasn't done it. I don't NEED to call him. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #226

You need to call him if you're going to claim he can't or won't. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #229

I refer you to post 161 in which you claim slag running down channel rails. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #198

Captain Philip Ruvolo, FDNY, claims molten steel running down the channel rails. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #203

Which of course, humans can detect the chemical composition of with the naked eye. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #205

Practical men know what melted steel looks like. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #209

Generally untrue, with a couple narrow exceptions; tells that are not present AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #212

Practical men have been around welding and casting operations and know Ace Acme Oct 2013 #215

Cluebat: I work with molten metals myself. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #218

You are an anonymous internet poster. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #222

I didn't bring up Seger. You did. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #225

I didn't say they know what it is made of. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #228

I've pulled "glowing hot steel" from a campfire William Seger Jul 2013 #51

I've heated steel in a campfire and been unable to make it glow. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #64

Maybe you need to try again William Seger Oct 2013 #65

Dr. Astaneh has pictures. He told PBS "I saw melting of girders". Ace Acme Oct 2013 #66

I don't think your last argument is correct. AZCat Oct 2013 #68

It's been several years since I read that part, which is buried deep in the third volume Ace Acme Oct 2013 #77

Interesting response. AZCat Oct 2013 #136

I read it again. It was as I said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #145

Nah, you can totally make mild steel glow in a plain campfire. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #72

Oh, I'm familiar enough with the issues to know William Seger Oct 2013 #81

Dr. Astaneh's opinions about truthers are irrelevant to the fact that he saw melting of girders Ace Acme Oct 2013 #85

Where are the photos? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #86

You don't know? How can you be so ignorant? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #88

That is not an answer. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #90

edits provide links nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #91

You are conflating and hedging. Do not play games with me. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #92

Site access was restricted. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #94

Those photos aren't 'not good enough' they are not of the same thing at all. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #96

Those photos are of partially melted steel girders and partially evaporated steel girders. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #97

That's not what melting looks like, for steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #98

Dr. Asteneh said it was melted. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #100

Ok, where's the stalagmite? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #102

Dr. Glanz is a PhD astrophysicist and a journalist Ace Acme Oct 2013 #104

I won't assume he lied. I will assume he is wrong. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #106

Why should you assume he is wrong? Is that science? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #110

Yes I do. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #112

He thought it was steel because he thought it was steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #114

Strawman. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #116

What's extraordinary about Dr. Glanz's claim, corroborated by 8 other PhDs Ace Acme Oct 2013 #118

Showing erosion, not slagging. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #120

"Slagging" is a phony spec. Astaneh's photos show melting and vaporization. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #123

Again, strawman. I am not 'closing off' investigation. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #125

Look at the "Material Recovery Report" by Professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, fig 10 photo nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #127

I have, several times. That is erosion. There is no slag. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #129

"No slag" does not equal "no melting" nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #131

It does, if you intend to show dripping beams, pools, stalagmites, etc. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #133

I didn't say anything about dripping beams or pools nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #135

Then why did you jump into this thread fork which was previously about items like AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #138

And yet you obviously cannot produce any pictures of "melted girders" William Seger Oct 2013 #139

If you haven't seen the pictures years ago you must have been hiding under a rock. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #143

Nope, I haven't seen any pictures of "melted girders" William Seger Oct 2013 #146

Pictures Ace Acme Oct 2013 #147

Yep, I've seen those girder pics William Seger Oct 2013 #151

The "eroded" steel was "vaporized" and subject to "intergranular melting" Ace Acme Oct 2013 #154

"intergranular melting" that happened at 1000 degrees C William Seger Oct 2013 #156

Intergranular melting is melting Ace Acme Oct 2013 #158

You never asserted any conspiracy? William Seger Oct 2013 #160

Conspiracy theories appeal mostly to those who want simple-minded answers. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #162

Who do ad hoc "just so stories" appeal to? (n/t) William Seger Oct 2013 #166

Ad hoc stories like incompetence, turf wars, confusion, lack of vision Ace Acme Oct 2013 #167

"Ad hoc in argumentation" William Seger Oct 2013 #204

Logical failure. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #173

As usual, you're making no sense. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #176

Then you're begging the question that steel melted. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #180

"corrosion" = "evaporated" = "melted". You're playing word games. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #247

No, I'm looking for evidence that supports the OTHER claims you referenced. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #248

You are making excuses to deny the evidence, not looking for it. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #249

There is an alleged sample, unproven 12 YEARS after, zero photos and a couple allegations. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #250

The "alleged" samples are pictured in FEMA Appendix C and have been seen on BBC TV. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #251

'melted' in the manner you showed doesn't produce running channels full of molten steel or stalgmite AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #252

1. How do you know? 2. Why does it matter? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #253

I asked for evidence of steel that could produce the alleged stalagmite for which AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #254

I provided the evidence. Eyewitness testimony from Captain Philip Ruvolo, FDNY, Ace Acme Nov 2013 #255

I think they are mistaken. I didn't say it was inadmissible. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #256

NIST doesn't prove their theories. Their core steel samples do not show heating Ace Acme Nov 2013 #257

Do you not see the contradiction in your own statement there? AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #258

Your demands for proof are disingenuous when you do not demand proof from NIST. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #259

Either Astaneh is talking about something he didn't take pictures of AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #260

So you're back to arguing that doing laundry is a conspiracy theory Ace Acme Nov 2013 #261

No, much simpler than that. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #262

Eyewitness testimony is evidence. Your efforts to deny that would get you laughed out of court. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #263

RE: "ALL of the 9/11 investigations cost less than one Predator drone." Make7 Oct 2013 #148

My mistake. One Reaper drone costs $30 million. Or a Chinook helicopter. Sue me. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #149

I spend my time arguing with creationists. You're welcome. If not, their bullshit would be in textbo AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #172

And they've taught you everything you know about maintaining your illusions, Ace Acme Oct 2013 #175

You have provided zero facts, and nothing but unsubstantiated allegations. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #179

I have provided facts. I said 5 PhDs attested to melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #182

5 PHD's that offered no evidence, and no means by which they identified the allegedly AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #183

Your claim is contradictory to reality. Dr. Astaneh has photos. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #185

No he doesn't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #187

Dr. Astaneh has photos of melted steel. A stalgmite is melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #189

Astaneh has zero photos of molten steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #191

Astaneh has photos of melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #193

Yes, there is a need for it. Because without it, you have no evidence beyond Glanz's claim AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #195

How many hundreds of hours have you spent posting about 9/11? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #202

You posted that. But here's the problem. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #206

Astaneh's photos and WPI's photos show melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #210

There are no photos or samples that link steel beams to a steel stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #213

You keep repeating this invented and irrelevant specification. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #217

The stalagmite hasn't been established AS steel. The beams do not show the type of melting that AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #219

The sack contains Dr. Astaneh's statement that he saw melting of girders. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #224

Which is negated by the fact he took zero pictures of it. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #227

How do you know the girder wasn't slagged? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #230

If you'd ever cut steel with any heat source, you'd know the self-evident answer to that question. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #231

I've cut steel with heat. You're bluffing. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #232

Clearly you have not, or you wouldn't be pretending that the beam resembles AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #233

You arfe imposing your phony conditions again Ace Acme Oct 2013 #234

Keep pretending. I would too, if I was invested in an idea and boxed into a corner. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #235

So you admit that you pretend, rather than admit when you're wrong. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #236

I'd take EVIDENCE of a slagged beam. Like a photo. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #237

I'm not refusing anything Ace Acme Oct 2013 #238

Retreat away. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #239

I'm pointing at photos that show melted steel. "Slagged" is your phony specification, Ace Acme Nov 2013 #240

You're showing eroded beams that have no connection whatsoever with a stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #241

I'm pointing at photos that show melted steel. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #242

No, this is what you did. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #243

"Eutectic corrosion" is "melting". You are playing with words. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #244

A lie. Produce the assay of Dr. Jones claim of 'formerly molten ingot'. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #245

There is nothing false about my analogies. They illustrate the flaws in your reasoning. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #246

Keep in mind, ATSM A36 steel is super mild carbon steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #71

Thermite was found at the site damnedifIknow Jul 2013 #52

No, it was not William Seger Jul 2013 #53

do you know.... wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #62

Yep! William Seger Jul 2013 #63

Actually you can pick it up at WalMart. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #54

actually it's probably quite easy to make..... wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #61

It is insulting to use the epithet "conspiracy theorists" on almost every text panel. BlueStreak Oct 2013 #109

How do you expect them to hypnotize us with the meme Ace Acme Oct 2013 #150