Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

William Seger

(11,031 posts)
38. "Sorry. That does not add up."
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 04:24 PM
Mar 2013

We were discussing that video in another thread and it seems there are at least two possible explanations for people running up the hill.

(1) They figured the murderer couldn't shoot all of them, so whoever made it up there when he ran out of ammo would grab him.

(2) They were trying to leave and they parked in the parking lot behind the picket fence.

As fascinating as your arithmetic is, I think I'll go with (2), but the point is that the inference that video tries to make is completely invalid.

The Warren Commission and the HSCA and everyone else who has reviewed the "ear witnesses" objectively has concluded that more people said the shots came from the direction of the TSBD than from the knoll. You dodged every point in my reply, but the important one was that you can't prove there was a shooter on the knoll with those perceptions.

> (By the way, forensic crime scene investigator Sherry Fiester has written clearly and scientifically on why the Zapruder film shows a shot from the front.)

When asked specifically about the forward head-snap seen in Zapruder, this is what Fiester offered as an explanation:

When the bullet strikes the skull, the velocity abruptly slows, thereby transferring kinetic energy to the target. This primary transfer of energy causes the target to move minutely into the force and against the line of fire, quickly followed by movement with the force, and in the continued direction, of the moving bullet (Karger, 2008). This dual movement is addressed in several studies, all of which include that dual movement as a part of the characteristic of gunshot wounds to the head.

Once the bullet enters the skull, if the design of the projectile limits penetration by distortion or fragmentation, the bullet immediately loses velocity. The loss of velocity results in the transfer of kinetic energy demonstrated by the instantaneous generation of temporary cavitation. The higher a projectile’s velocity upon impact, the more kinetic energy is available to transfer to the target. The amount of kinetic energy transferred to a target increases with faster projectile deceleration. This initial transfer of energy causes the target to swell or move minutely into the force and against the line of fire. The greater the transferred energy, the more pronounced the forward movement (Karger, 2008; Coupland, 2011; Radford, 2009).

http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?topic=2240.120

She goes on to provide some high-frame-rate videos of bullets passing through gelatin blocks to demonstrate that while the bullet is still inside the gelatin, the side where the bullet entered bulges slightly as pressure builds up.

Sorry, but we're not talking about JFK's head bulging slightly while the bullet was passing through it, but rather the 2.5-inch forward movement of the entire skull after the bullet has already passed through it. Fiester has certainly not explained that movement because she hasn't even addressed it. Moreover, she does not even begin to address how the back-and-to-left movement could have been caused by momentum from a bullet that passed through the skull 1/6 second before that motion is observed.

The Zapruder film irrefutably shows that the fatal shot was from behind, but please feel free to attempt another refutation.
Thanks for posting, I watched the first 9 videos from the links in your earlier posts. eomer Feb 2013 #1
I sort of see it, too... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #4
Introduction: Woman heard shot from grassy knoll William Seger Feb 2013 #2
Snark? MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #3
"That's all I get from you is snark?" William Seger Feb 2013 #5
No, I read it... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #6
Uh-huh, "answers" and "honest discussion" and "dialog" William Seger Feb 2013 #11
Episode Two: John Armstrong speculates there were "two Oswalds" William Seger Feb 2013 #12
Episode Three: Bill Simpich speculates that Oswald was part of "false defector" program William Seger Feb 2013 #13
Episode Four: Joan Mellen speculates that Oswald was a CIA/FBI plant William Seger Feb 2013 #15
Episode Five: John Armstrong again, speculating about "two Oswalds" again William Seger Feb 2013 #16
No response from the OP yet? zappaman Mar 2013 #18
On posting the videos as they come out each week, and on your being blocked for it... eomer Feb 2013 #7
Appreciated, eomer... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #8
I followed the discussion and I thank you for having, by far, the more reasonable approach. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #14
Thanks for posting and sorry for any grief you got from others. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #9
Twas nothing... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #10
Will the OP be answering Seger's criticisms of the videos any time soon? zappaman Mar 2013 #17
It would appear that the poll speaks for who's more interested in the videos... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #19
So the answer is NO zappaman Mar 2013 #20
The answer is... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #21
!!! zappaman Mar 2013 #22
... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #23
I'm sorry you can't speak for yourself. zappaman Mar 2013 #24
They sure are... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #25
Seger's criticisms arguille Mar 2013 #26
I a interested in the way you addressed "c" MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #27
One at a time: a) eyewitness reports of shot(s) from grassy knoll area William Seger Mar 2013 #28
reply to #28 arguille Mar 2013 #33
"Sorry. That does not add up." William Seger Mar 2013 #38
reply to #38 arguille Mar 2013 #43
Neither you nor Fiester have refuted what I'm saying about Zapruder William Seger Mar 2013 #46
BTW, here's a "painted over" Zapruder frame William Seger Mar 2013 #51
reply to #51 arguille Mar 2013 #52
Baloney. I DID respond to your three issues. William Seger Mar 2013 #58
reply to #58 arguille Mar 2013 #60
Timeout William Seger Mar 2013 #64
A vacation is what you needed at this point, Billy MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #66
I'm back William Seger Apr 2013 #73
reply to #73 arguille Apr 2013 #74
I keep asking for one GOOD reason William Seger Apr 2013 #79
reply to #79 arguille Apr 2013 #82
Baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #85
reply to #85 arguille Apr 2013 #92
Sliced thin and piled high, it's still baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #93
reply to #93 arguille Apr 2013 #94
On and on William Seger Apr 2013 #95
reply to #95 arguille Apr 2013 #97
Stairway to delusion William Seger Apr 2013 #99
reply to #99 arguille Apr 2013 #100
Oh, I don't really mind arguing with a brick wall William Seger Apr 2013 #108
reply to #108 arguille Apr 2013 #110
Credibility issue William Seger Apr 2013 #115
reply to #115 arguille Apr 2013 #117
Two words: Bull. Shit. William Seger Apr 2013 #118
reply to #118 arguille Apr 2013 #119
But I DID read it, "arguille" William Seger Apr 2013 #121
reply to #121 arguille Apr 2013 #124
If you're just going to keep repeating yourself William Seger Apr 2013 #127
reply to #127 arguille Apr 2013 #129
"What's that about likely or unlikely?" William Seger Apr 2013 #133
reply to #133 arguille Apr 2013 #135
By the way, this... William Seger Apr 2013 #131
reply to #131 arguille Apr 2013 #136
Well, that's the problem MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #84
Clicking on your posts, hoping that maybe this time there will be something William Seger Apr 2013 #86
Point by point William Seger Apr 2013 #69
reply to post #69 arguille Apr 2013 #76
In other words, speculation and spin are all you've got William Seger Apr 2013 #80
"...but the single-bullet theory remains the best explanation of the facts." MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #87
I'm sure arguille appreciates the cheerleading, but... William Seger Apr 2013 #88
You wish a fight over what you should wish to seek... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #89
I've been begging for any credible FACTS that refute the WC conclusions William Seger Apr 2013 #90
Reply to #80 arguille Apr 2013 #91
No offense, of course, but so what? William Seger Apr 2013 #96
reply to #96 arguille Apr 2013 #98
Good grief William Seger Apr 2013 #112
reply to #112 arguille Apr 2013 #113
More baloney? No thanks William Seger Apr 2013 #114
reply to #114 arguille Apr 2013 #116
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush William Seger Apr 2013 #122
reply to #122 arguille Apr 2013 #130
Thanks for the video William Seger Apr 2013 #132
reply to #132 arguille Apr 2013 #137
Pointless repetition William Seger Apr 2013 #140
reply to #140 arguille Apr 2013 #142
"What fact?" William Seger Apr 2013 #144
reply to #144 arguille Apr 2013 #147
Yeaaaaaah, THAT'S the ticket William Seger Apr 2013 #148
reply to #148 arguille Apr 2013 #149
But it IS bullshit, isn't it William Seger Apr 2013 #151
reply to #151 arguille Apr 2013 #153
LMAO William Seger Apr 2013 #156
reply to #156 arguille Apr 2013 #158
In other words, you have absolutely no sound evidence or logical reason William Seger Apr 2013 #160
reply to #160 arguille Apr 2013 #161
'Round the barn again William Seger Apr 2013 #162
reply to #162 arguille Apr 2013 #165
How about this: William Seger Apr 2013 #167
b) Fletcher Prouty worked at the Pentagon William Seger Mar 2013 #29
reply to #29 arguille Mar 2013 #34
And again, my point was... William Seger Mar 2013 #40
reply to #40 arguille Mar 2013 #44
Yes, they lie a lot William Seger Mar 2013 #48
reply to #48 arguille Mar 2013 #53
Well, if you think you can prove THAT, then... William Seger Mar 2013 #59
reply to #59 arguille Mar 2013 #61
Which just goes to show... William Seger Apr 2013 #70
reply to #70 arguille Apr 2013 #77
c) Seger dismisses information on Oswald's history and background as unsubstantial William Seger Mar 2013 #30
reply to #30 arguille Mar 2013 #35
"But there was a false defector program." William Seger Mar 2013 #39
reply to #39 arguille Mar 2013 #45
"illegal operations can be understood as including false defectors" William Seger Mar 2013 #50
reply to #50 arguille Mar 2013 #54
Baloney. Here's a link to the minutes of that meeting William Seger Mar 2013 #57
reply to #57 arguille Mar 2013 #62
"*IF* that were true and it ever came out and could be established" William Seger Apr 2013 #71
reply to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #75
Actually, what I'm claiming is... William Seger Apr 2013 #83
also to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #78
The minutes of the first Commission meeting, and I provided the link (n/t) William Seger Apr 2013 #81
d) Mexico City William Seger Mar 2013 #31
reply to #31 arguille Mar 2013 #36
"the provable fact that Oswald was framed" William Seger Mar 2013 #41
e) spooky one-note music. William Seger Mar 2013 #32
reply to #32 arguille Mar 2013 #37
Sez you William Seger Mar 2013 #42
reply to #42 arguille Mar 2013 #47
But I'm giving you every opportunity to change my mind William Seger Mar 2013 #49
reply to #49 arguille Mar 2013 #55
Baloney. It's not a "rhetorical device" to demand FACT-based DEDUCTIVE reasoning William Seger Mar 2013 #56
reply to #56 arguille Mar 2013 #63
Well now... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #68
Prove any one of them, then William Seger Apr 2013 #72
Made it to 1:38 in first video Riftaxe Mar 2013 #65
Wow!.... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #67
In the intro video, they say his head moved back when he was shot, ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #101
Shhhhh! zappaman Apr 2013 #102
I have only watched the first first video and half of the second, so they might address that point. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #103
You should check this out as well zappaman Apr 2013 #104
That does look like his head moved forward to me. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #105
reply to ZombieHorde arguille Apr 2013 #106
"It remains a point of contention five decades later." zappaman Apr 2013 #107
It does remain a point of contention... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #109
Well, I suppose the earth being round remains a point of contention since some believe it is flat... zappaman Apr 2013 #111
head movement and blood spatter arguille Apr 2013 #120
In other words, Fiester has NO CLUE the 2.5" forward head-snap even happened William Seger Apr 2013 #123
reply to #123 arguille Apr 2013 #125
"move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #126
reply to #126 arguille Apr 2013 #128
"swell or move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" forward head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #134
reply to #134 arguille Apr 2013 #138
Yep, that's exactly the same thing Fiester was talking about William Seger Apr 2013 #139
reply to #139 arguille Apr 2013 #141
What's refuted is your bizarre interpretation of "contemporary ballistic science" William Seger Apr 2013 #143
reply to #143 arguille Apr 2013 #150
You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper William Seger Apr 2013 #152
Reply to #152 arguille Apr 2013 #154
I really don't understand why you keep responding if that's the best you can do William Seger Apr 2013 #155
reply to #155 arguille Apr 2013 #157
... William Seger Apr 2013 #159
"Ballistics & Forensic Experts on the JFK Head Shot" William Seger Apr 2013 #163
reply to #163 arguille Apr 2013 #164
No, this is the ticket: William Seger Apr 2013 #166
BTW, Re: Fiester as an "expert" William Seger Apr 2013 #168
"Seger refutes contemporary ballistic science" with another video William Seger Apr 2013 #146
And by the way.... William Seger Apr 2013 #145
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Creative Speculation»Here's a correction OP fo...»Reply #38