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cbrer

(1,831 posts)
47. Based on sources cited here
Sat Mar 3, 2012, 11:48 AM
Mar 2012

And other information I've found, I have to admit that NIST's study seems a lot more plausible. Please read these quotes and comment as to veracity.

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire.

**cut**

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.


As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

This is from http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

I stopped at #1. zappaman Feb 2012 #1
actually it doesn't weaken steel Rosa Luxemburg Feb 2012 #30
Did I use the wrong word? zappaman Feb 2012 #31
Facts? These questions show that you've already been bamboozled William Seger Feb 2012 #2
Pancake theory leaves Politicalboi Mar 2012 #63
Nonsense will never change my mind, but actual evidence certainly would. William Seger Mar 2012 #67
I would really like to know what you believe to be the relevance of point 1 jberryhill Feb 2012 #3
Not completely cbrer Feb 2012 #4
Keep up the inquiry, please. earcandle Feb 2012 #5
"Conflicting data"? William Seger Feb 2012 #6
Indubitably (sp?) cbrer Feb 2012 #7
If you don't have the background to wade through the equations used... AZCat Feb 2012 #8
Not asking for defense cbrer Feb 2012 #10
If you could apply the laws of physics to 9/11 as you claim, you LARED Feb 2012 #13
Uh... Yes, you did. AZCat Feb 2012 #15
I stand corrected cbrer Feb 2012 #17
Have you read the NIST NCSTARs? AZCat Feb 2012 #22
If you "don't have the background to wade through the equations"... William Seger Feb 2012 #23
Those curves are typical... jberryhill Feb 2012 #9
Steel cbrer Feb 2012 #11
No one has told you to STFU jberryhill Feb 2012 #12
I need to start using the sarcasm emoticon cbrer Feb 2012 #14
"Lots of conflicting information by credible sources exist" jberryhill Feb 2012 #34
Google cbrer Feb 2012 #20
I misremembered the name jberryhill Feb 2012 #24
Thanks for the link cbrer Feb 2012 #25
This is pure nonsense.... jberryhill Feb 2012 #33
Maybe you can answer this for me then BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #54
And your explanation for that is....? jberryhill Mar 2012 #57
Here's one BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #58
Yes, David Chandler is a kook William Seger Feb 2012 #16
Potential yes, but... cbrer Feb 2012 #18
"... is shown to have been in constant downward acceleration until it disappeared." William Seger Feb 2012 #26
He states that it's in the video. cbrer Feb 2012 #27
I meant "shown" as in "demonstrated conclusively" William Seger Feb 2012 #28
Thanks cbrer Feb 2012 #29
Two weeks have passed and still no response, even LARED Mar 2012 #45
Weak assed effort cbrer Mar 2012 #46
Here is what I am seriously suggesting LARED Mar 2012 #50
An open mind cbrer Mar 2012 #53
Honestly is appreciated nt LARED Mar 2012 #62
I'll quibble with #4 OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #59
Quibble noted LARED Mar 2012 #61
seems fair, although personally I would avoid legal terms of art OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #70
nice post -- I'll just point out a recurring typo OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #32
And... cbrer Feb 2012 #19
For someone who claims to be curious, why have you not read any critical analysis of this POS? jberryhill Feb 2012 #35
Partial link- sorry cbrer Feb 2012 #21
"2. Timing does show some free fall throughout collapse of towers." jberryhill Feb 2012 #36
As I previously noted cbrer Feb 2012 #37
It doesn't require any particular expertise... jberryhill Feb 2012 #38
You were able cbrer Feb 2012 #39
No, you are not seeking information jberryhill Feb 2012 #40
here's the thing OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #41
Based on sources cited here cbrer Mar 2012 #47
"Please read these quotes and comment as to veracity." jberryhill Mar 2012 #51
My little personal story libodem Mar 2012 #42
I don't understand zappaman Mar 2012 #43
I know it is silly libodem Mar 2012 #48
"a bunch of nomads and a camel" jberryhill Mar 2012 #52
yes and no OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #60
Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BobbyBoring Mar 2012 #55
I would have got it a lot sooner zappaman Mar 2012 #56
Well... terrafirma Mar 2012 #44
So amazing...after all these years libodem Mar 2012 #49
Lobby windows blown out Politicalboi Mar 2012 #64
Situational evidence cbrer Mar 2012 #68
You can add two more indicators of an inside job.... Mr. Skeptik Mar 2012 #69
huh? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #71
Sure, Mr. Skeptik Mar 2012 #73
Nonsense William Seger Mar 2012 #74
darn it, you type too fast! OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #76
I guess it depends... William Seger Mar 2012 #78
yeah, it's easy to end up making people's arguments for them OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #81
seriously? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #75
lots of odd assertions here OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #72
Oh and Politicalboi Mar 2012 #65
Oh boy, such nonsense sgsmith Mar 2012 #66
This thread is a hoot!!! Broderick Mar 2012 #77
I was hoping cbrer Mar 2012 #79
Have you drank too much Broderick Mar 2012 #80
you're not familiar with "formulae"? OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #82
chime in about what? I'm confused OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #83
No reason cbrer Mar 2012 #84
yes, there is a lot to be learned (or that can be learned) OnTheOtherHand Mar 2012 #85
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Creative Speculation»OK then. Just the facts. ...»Reply #47