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Creative Speculation
In reply to the discussion: The Great Thermite Debate... [View all]eomer
(3,845 posts)121. My answer about intervening to change assumptions, and other similar things.
The Investigation Team then defined three cases for each building by combining the middle, less severe, and more severe values of the influential variables. Upon a preliminary examination of the middle cases, it became clear that the towers would likely remain standing. The less severe cases were discarded after the aircraft impact results were compared to observed events. The middle cases (which became Case A for WTC 1 and Case C for WTC 2) were discarded after the structural response analysis of major subsystems were compared to observed events. The more severe case (which became Case B for WTC 1 and Case D for WTC 2) was used for the global analysis of each tower.
Complete sets of simulations were then performed for Cases B and D. To the extent that the simulations deviated from the photographic evidence or eyewitness reports, the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality. Thus, for instance, the observed window breakage was an input to the fire simulations and the pulling forces on the perimeter columns by the sagging floors were adjusted within the range of values derived from the subsystem computations.
The results were a simulation of the structural deterioration of each tower from the time of aircraft impact to the time at which the building became unstable, i.e., was poised for collapse. Cases B and D accomplished this in a manner that was consistent with the principal observables and the governing physics.
Complete sets of simulations were then performed for Cases B and D. To the extent that the simulations deviated from the photographic evidence or eyewitness reports, the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality. Thus, for instance, the observed window breakage was an input to the fire simulations and the pulling forces on the perimeter columns by the sagging floors were adjusted within the range of values derived from the subsystem computations.
The results were a simulation of the structural deterioration of each tower from the time of aircraft impact to the time at which the building became unstable, i.e., was poised for collapse. Cases B and D accomplished this in a manner that was consistent with the principal observables and the governing physics.
There are a couple of points about this account that I want to discuss. The first is the one I said I would come back with, which is my statement that they intervened in the middle of the model and set assumptions as needed to make it match the observations. The second paragraph above is their statement that they did that. So they did not just use simplifying assumptions. They customized key assumptions, apparently down at the level of individual structures, to be whatever they needed them to be in order to make the model resemble the observations. So the model resembling the observations does not validate the model. In fact the opposite is true. The model did not resemble the observations just based on simplifying assumptions and physics. It had to be customized down at the level of individual components to make it resemble the observations, which says that the original (un-rigged) model failed to validate against observations.
Another point is their use of the phrase "within the range of physical reality". This is putting it backwards and I think putting it backwards on purpose in order to mislead. Contrary to their claim, there is no range in the physical reality of this event. The range is in the uncertainty of their models and analyses. And since the range of uncertainty spans from no to yes on the question of collapse (according to them), what their whole exercise demonstrates is the opposite of what they imply. They imply that they've demonstrated that the towers would collapse from the effects of impact and fires. In fact what they've demonstrated is that they don't know whether the towers would collapse from just those effects.
A third point is about the construction and selection of the most severe case. Apparently to construct this case they took the most severe results of each of the subsystems, combined them together, and this forms the input for the most severe case of the global analysis. Thinking of this in terms of probability, it seems they chose an answer somewhere in the tail of a distribution for each assumption and they repeated this over significant number of different assumptions. If each of the individual assumptions was on the edge of plausibility (most severe) then combining them this way would normally push the combination beyond plausibility, again from a probability point of view. In their account above you can see one revealing instance of this: they say that they discarded the less severe cases of all the subsystems because the aircraft impact results didn't match observations. How does the result for the aircraft impact subsystem justify discarding the less severe case for their heat transfer subsystem, for example, and for all the other subsystems?
So they discarded the less severe and middle cases. They also discarded all the possible combinations of the severe cases for some subsystems with the less severe or middle cases for other subsystems. Only when they combined all the marginally plausible cases for all the subsystems could they get the result they wanted.
These things taken together show that they had to push their analyses out toward (and beyond in my opinion) the limits of plausibility. And, even more than that, even if someone believes that they didn't go beyond the limits of plausibility, there is still the unavoidable fact that at best they didn't demonstrate that the towers would have collapsed; at best they demonstrated that they don't know.
Edit: remove an inadvertent smilie.
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Thanks, for the breezier read ... but, "thermate" didn't break the government's case for me ...
T S Justly
Dec 2011
#36
That half-informed crap about aluminum glowing red probably came from Rush Limbaugh.
GoneFishin
Jan 2014
#293
That's the half-information I was referring to. But some here may be fooled, so good luck to you. nt
GoneFishin
Jan 2014
#297
I couldn't care less about the burden on Jones & Co. They're not here, and they're not going to be
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#156
Right. Lack of evidence is no reason for you not to believe what you want to believe. nt
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#168
"they would not collapse neatly into a small pile using conventional demolition"
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#19
We were talking about WTC7. You claimed you had an FEA that showed that the columns could not
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#153
The sims bear no resemblance to reality. The real tower did not tip until the last phase
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#169
You claimed in 158 that the sim animations of WTC7 showed tipping to the south.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#172
The tipping CAN be seen in the animation of the "with impact damage" sim
William Seger
Dec 2013
#174
Oh, it's the smileybot, back to demonstrate his erudition and analytical facility
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#220
Yeah. But even that citation about the towers used the word "must" so many times
GoneFishin
Jan 2014
#294
He's prevaricating. Just as I stated. If you can't spot a snowjob it's fine with me. There may be
GoneFishin
Jan 2014
#298
As soon as you stop playing silly games and deal with your misrepresentations
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#35
Another thing not found in the rubble was steel that had been heated to the extent that NIST assumed
eomer
Dec 2011
#42
First, "... none of the samples were from zones where such heating was predicted.”
William Seger
Dec 2011
#43
That's not stating it precisely right - the samples they found DID match their predictions.
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#46
Oh, well, the samples that were found also matched the predictions of the thermite theory.
eomer
Dec 2011
#47
That is the data that the model was fitted to in the first place. It confirms nothing.
eomer
Dec 2011
#49
You were expecting they'd find a model that wouldn't fit what physical evidence they had?
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#52
So a rigorous mathematical and professional modeling of the WTC tower structures checked
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#75
Choosing the model that agreed the closest with all visual and physical evidence is circular?
Bolo Boffin
Dec 2011
#78
The modeling that was "within the margin of error" includes collapse and no collapse.
eomer
Jan 2012
#83
I hesitated to reply because I think this is going to be difficult to work through.
eomer
Jan 2012
#84
maybe part of the problem here is "the big question they were trying to answer"
OnTheOtherHand
Jan 2012
#85
I'm arguing, rather, that NIST didn't demonstrate that therm*te wasn't *needed*.
eomer
Jan 2012
#100
the way this thread (and the broader "debate") has gone, I think the distinction is huge
OnTheOtherHand
Jan 2012
#127
I still don't see the distinction between would and did, but let me not use that word.
eomer
Jan 2012
#128
Engineers were pressured "to take off [their] engineering hat and put on [their] management hat".
eomer
Jan 2012
#126
But those column temperatures did not play any part in collapse initiation
William Seger
Dec 2011
#66
That is one aspect of the model. Do you seriously propose that you can choose parts of the model
eomer
Dec 2011
#74
I'm "proposing" that the temperature of the columns did not affect the floor sagging
William Seger
Dec 2011
#80
Those temperatures are an integral part of the model and one that NIST spent several pages on.
eomer
Jan 2012
#82
Well, actually, he only proved that he could cut a little way through a small steel beam
William Seger
Dec 2011
#62
That was just a weld that he managed to unweld, not cutting through a column.
William Seger
Dec 2011
#67
"didn't even bother to look for evidence of explosives and/or incendiaries"
William Seger
Jan 2012
#104
Nonsense. The only reason to test for explosives in any of those cases...
William Seger
Jan 2012
#117
Far from being insane, it was proposed by experts immediately after the collapses,
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#146
If you're citing Downey as your expert, shouldn't you be the one quoting him?
William Seger
Dec 2013
#161
I cited Romero to the effect that a few charges in key places could have brought the buildings down.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#163
I'm not a metallurgist. You seemed to be dismissive of the test results that were available,
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#238
So you're suggesting that there were not other, more edifying tests that could have been done
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#247
It was the one that showed heating to only 480 F. The other tests did not counterindicate that. nt
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#259
The Saudet video shows that the antenna fell 18 feet before the building started falling.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#265
No it doesn't. The top of the N. wall would be moving if the building were tilting.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#270
Since your gif begins at the moment the tilt begins, we have no way of knowing
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#278
Who cares what an anonymous internet poster thinks? We need new investigations.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#228
So the anonymous internet poster who says we shouldn't listen to anonymous internet posters...
AZCat
Dec 2013
#230
I expect reasonable people to look at the facts, to look at the demonstrably incomplete and corrupt
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#239
Any kind of job that demands conformity, obedience, and avoidance of controversy.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#251
If you had bothered to read Appendix C you would know that the sulfidated steel does melt at 1000 C.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#266
The eutectic mixture liquefies the steel at a temperature below its normal melting point.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#276
The eutectic mixture includes the iron from the steel. That's why the steel liquefies.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#282
If the eutectic melting happened at 1000C you still have to explain where the sulfur came from,
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#285
Calcium Sulfate is not a possible source. It's already fully oxidized. It's inert.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#289
The steel was subject to a high-temperature sulfidation attack causing intergranular melting.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#255
So with Mr. Cole's report you discount what he did say and deny the evidence on specious grounds.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#264
So run some thermate on some steel and show that it's not the same as the FEMA samples. nt
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#286
You're the one claiming that Mr. Cole's sulfidation attack on the steel is not the same as WPI's
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#290
"I try to avoid having conclusive opinions and instead stick to established facts"
zappaman
Dec 2013
#189
Sorry, you can't build a case based on an expectation of government competence
BlueStreak
Dec 2013
#200
How do you know FBI protocols abot ignoring warnings? You must be highly placed.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#204
You don't need charges on the fire floors. WTC1 came apart in floors above the fire floors.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#187
If there's reprogramable det sequences, that can all be adjusted after the fact
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#193
Radio control needn't interfere with other equipment if the frequency was chosen carefully,
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#206
I could make microprocessor-based detonators. Probably 400,000 people in the USA could.
Ace Acme
Dec 2013
#208