Israel/Palestine

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)

10. I put up the OP because it reflects my own beliefs on anti-Semitism to a great degree.

Thu May 5, 2016, 01:04 AM

May 2016

I think the debate about what's legitimate criticism of Israel and what's anti-Semitism is important. I'm opposed to anti-Semitism and I think it's wrong to justify discrimination of one ethnic group in the pursuit of rights for another, which I believe is Labour's problem in a nutshell. Labour should kick out the trash - up to 20 members have already been suspended, (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.717539) but I'm sure there will be more. I agree with you that Labour has a problem, but I think it can be fixed.

I think the current situation in Israel warrants criticism, and a lot of it too. Israel's democratic character is diminishing, and it seems as things are only getting worse. Hopefully, Israel can turn things around, but it won't happen on its own.

Anyway, I disagree with you on a few points. I don't think that accusing Israel of being a Nazi state is necessarily anti-Semitic, but it can be. Sometimes the Nazi comparison can be legit, like here:

Haaretz: IDF Deputy Chief Likens 'Revolting Trends' in Israeli Society to pre-Holocaust Germany

'On Holocaust Remembrance Day, we ought to discuss our ability to uproot the seeds of intolerance, violence, self-destruction and moral deterioration,' says Maj. Gen. Yair Golan.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.717948

Also, accusing Israel of targeting civilians isn't slanderous hate speech if it's based on facts:

Israeli forces displayed ‘callous indifference’ in deadly attacks on family homes in Gaza
Source: Amnesty International, 5 November 2014

Israeli forces have killed scores of Palestinian civilians in attacks targeting houses full of families which in some cases have amounted to war crimes, Amnesty International has disclosed in a new report on the latest Israeli operation in the Gaza Strip

.
Read more: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/11/israeli-forces-displayed-callous-indifference-deadly-attacks-family-homes-gaza/

For reasons unknown, I couldn't access your clip, which is unfortunate, because Alan johnson seems to be fairly intelligent. I found a transcript of him responding to Normal Finkelstein here: http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/131475/how-alan-johnson-responded-norman-finkelstein-kings-college-israel-debate

I don't think that Ken Livingstone's remarks were anti-Semitic, simply because he seems to be unable to grasp the significance of bringing up historical events in a current political discussion. I wouldn't do it, regardless of whether the events actually occured or not. But bad judgement isn't anti-Semitism.

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Legitimate criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism [View all] Little Tich May 2016 OP

Some of this I agree with aranthus May 2016 #1

For the record aranthus May 2016 #2

I believe that Israel doesn't have the right to exist as a Jewish state, Little Tich May 2016 #7

This message was self-deleted by its author 6chars May 2016 #8

I believe that no ethnic group should be allowed to create a state and discriminate against other Little Tich May 2016 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author 6chars May 2016 #11

Frankly, I think that liberal democracy is the only viable form of government. Little Tich May 2016 #12

Really? So what is your side doing to promote Palestinian liberal democratic values? shira May 2016 #14

You're really barking up the wrong tree. n/t Little Tich May 2016 #25

Not at all. If you truly want a liberal democratic 1-state solution, prove it... shira May 2016 #33

Wrong tree. Little Tich May 2016 #41

Without a state and strong Jewish army King_David May 2016 #20

It's this indifference to the safety of Jews worldwide that's telling... shira May 2016 #34

Israel already guarantees equal rights for all its citizens despite the fiction you're selling. n/t shira May 2016 #15

Read this OP and comment on it please... shira May 2016 #13

Of course it isn't FBaggins May 2016 #3

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is pure antisemitism. shira May 2016 #5

The quote that really gets me: FBaggins May 2016 #6

It's an irrational hatred so the lie that he's never once heard anyone say anything antisemitic.... shira May 2016 #52

Typical anti-Zionist trash. The OP writer is part of the problem... shira May 2016 #4

I put up the OP because it reflects my own beliefs on anti-Semitism to a great degree. Little Tich May 2016 #10

Yes, you believe you know better what antisemitism & zionism is than Jews. shira May 2016 #16

Ah, so Alan Johnson was just another pro-Israel shill after all... Little Tich May 2016 #19

See, it's hard to argue Alan Johnson is wrong when he distinguishes.... shira May 2016 #22

I've realized that Alan Johnson never mentions what he believes constitutes legitimate criticism of Little Tich May 2016 #27

In post #4, I wrote before the video that at 1:08 into it Johnson distinguishes... shira May 2016 #32

Did you watch the video? Still don't know the difference b/w legit criticism & demonisation? n/t shira May 2016 #43

I seem to struggle with that particular clip, but why don't you enlighten me? Little Tich May 2016 #44

I thought you saw it. Here's another link... shira May 2016 #45

So there's no illegitimate criticism of Israel whatsoever on DU then? Little Tich May 2016 #46

Calling Israel a Nazi, Apartheid state or calling for the forced transfer of Israel's Jews... shira May 2016 #47

I think that there is a difference in how we define the motivations for the examples you mentioned. Little Tich May 2016 #48

The worst critics of Israel spew out most or all of those examples constantly.... shira May 2016 #50

I'm going to jump this thread. Little Tich May 2016 #53

Wait - you didn't answer my last question. Let's see if what you're saying is legitimate.... shira May 2016 #54

I thought this thread was exhausted, but your question deserves an answer. Little Tich May 2016 #56

Where have you ever seen Israel's record on gay rights used to deflect criticism? shira May 2016 #57

You're exhausted because u don't want to distinguish b/w legit criticism & Jew hate? shira May 2016 #58

As to the Nazi comparison, that's Holocaust Inversion....a form of Holocaust Denial shira May 2016 #17

"Holocaust Inversion" - that's a real fancy name for a limited instance of a very common mistake in Little Tich May 2016 #21

You're giving Holocaust minimizers (deniers) a free pass to bash Jews. shira May 2016 #23

I'm not giving Livingstone a free pass - it's just that I can't go from his statement being possibly Little Tich May 2016 #24

Then perhaps you're more alike then you realize FBaggins May 2016 #26

It would of course clinch it if Livingstone would make comments that revealed that he really doesn't Little Tich May 2016 #28

You must no have read the entire interview FBaggins May 2016 #29

Source, please. n/t Little Tich May 2016 #30

“A real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel”: Ken Livingstone’s extraordinary definition FBaggins May 2016 #31

I'm not sure our friend agrees with what classical antisemitism.... shira May 2016 #35

Crickets. They won't admit there's a problem, ever. n/t shira May 2016 #38

Yet another bizarre statement made by a former Mayor of London. Little Tich May 2016 #40

It's all his bizarre statements & lies that prove w/o question he's a Jew hater. n/t shira May 2016 #51

You didn't answer what proof of being an antisemite would look like. shira May 2016 #36

It's actually simple - the proof must prove that a person is an anti-Semite. Little Tich May 2016 #39

How about lies that incite hatred & violence? Is that proof? n/t shira May 2016 #42

Sigh FBaggins May 2016 #18

Legitimate criticism of the PLO & Hamas is considered racist by Israel haters.... shira May 2016 #37

This message was self-deleted by its author 6chars May 2016 #49

Chilling but typical silence from the Israel hating Left. No time for reflection.... shira May 2016 #55