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NNadir

(34,779 posts)
12. From a purely environmental perspective, ethical considerations about batteries aside, where you live matters.
Mon Oct 7, 2024, 05:54 PM
Oct 7

The paper from the primary scientific literature that I discussed in this post, A paper addressing the idea that electric cars are "green" reviews conveniently, the climate impact of cars on the grid on which I live, the PJM grid in the mid-Atlantic States.

It turns out that a hybrid car - no plug in - is slightly better on my grid than a plug in hybrid

Anyway, about the external costs, the costs to the environment, human health, and ecosystem sustainability of cars:



Figure 6. Consequential life cycle air emission externalities per vehicle in 2019, assuming 10% of the light-duty passenger car fleet in PJM’s service area is replaced with PEVs. “ICEV” denotes a conventional internal combustion engine vehicle, “HEV” denotes a standard gasoline hybrid electric vehicle (NiMH battery), “PHEV20” denotes a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with a battery range of 20 miles (Li-ion battery with NMC111 cathode chemistry), and “BEV300” denotes a battery electric with a battery range of 300 miles (Li-ion battery with NMC622 cathode chemistry). “CC” indicates that battery charge schedules are optimally controlled by PJM to minimize system operation costs, and “UC” indicates that battery charging is uncontrolled (i.e., initiated by the vehicle owner as soon as they complete their daily driving and arrive home. “Production” includes disposal and recycling; “Vehicle Use” includes tailpipe emissions and tire and brake wear).


It looks like on my grid, my type of car is the least obnoxious, although all cars are obnoxious, including mine.


From this graphic, on my grid, an electric car is actually worse than an internal combustion engine car - depending of course on gas mileage - because of the climate cost of making the batteries.

The climate intensity for the PJM grid was, in 2023, just under 400 grams CO2/kWh, and is dominated by the use of dangerous natural gas, with some coal, and some clean nuclear energy.

Electricity Map PJM Grid

I drive a hybrid Toyota Camry, my second one, the first having been destroyed in a major accident. (All the major safety systems functioned perfectly and I suffered only minor injuries from the air bag and seat belt.)

I often work from home, but sometimes go to the lab. I do not notice many changes in the gas mileage if I don't drive for a few days. The car is rated at 51 mpg; I got the LE model for its slightly better mileage rating. It has radar adjusted cruise control. If I use this, and do not exceed the speed limit by very much, I routinely get better than 60 mpg. On very cold days in the winter however, the mileage will be less than 51 mpg unless I take a relatively long trip, whereupon the battery heats from charging and discharging. The car's dash reports the overall mileage and average speed which I reset on tank filling, and also the mileage on individual trips. It has graphics that tell you how you're doing.

Lithium batteries have a moral cost associated with cobalt slavery in Africa. The moral cost of my car is lower than with an electric car, but is certainly not devoid of moral cost.

I thus cannot be considered to be beyond reproach, but I may claim to be slightly less odious than I might be with, say, a Tesla.




Recommendations

2 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

We have a Prius and a Leaf Lulu KC Oct 6 #1
That's good to know. iemanja Oct 7 #4
Something to consider is that one hybrid uses a fraction of the materials RockRaven Oct 7 #2
Thanks! Good info. iemanja Oct 7 #6
Recently bought a used 2022 Rav 4 Hybrid. 1WorldHope Oct 7 #3
How long have you had it? iemanja Oct 7 #5
Only a few weeks. We did drive it on the interstate for a day trip 3 hours each way and it was a joy to drive. 1WorldHope Oct 7 #10
We have a 2013 Prius and love it PuppyBismark Oct 7 #7
20/80 Rule Caribbeans Oct 7 #8
Great info! iemanja Oct 7 #9
we have an electric hybrid WhiteTara Oct 7 #11
From a purely environmental perspective, ethical considerations about batteries aside, where you live matters. NNadir Oct 7 #12
It sounds like you don't put in a lot of miles iemanja Oct 7 #13
My round trip to the lab is just about 50 miles; I typically go 3-4 days/week. I also drive on business trips to... NNadir Oct 7 #14
That's a lot then iemanja Oct 7 #15
Not using your car is the best choice environmentally NNadir Oct 7 #16
A couple of points Finishline42 Oct 8 #17
Maybe you can write to the authors of the paper to tell them that Elon Musk's marketing department... NNadir Oct 8 #18
Their study reminds me of this nonsense from 2008... Finishline42 Oct 8 #19
I have cited a scientific paper in a well respected and widely read scientific journal, not tripe from some... NNadir Oct 8 #20
Finally had some time to browse your referenced scientific article... Finishline42 Oct 11 #21
I'm not generally amused when people tell me that their personal experience defines the whole world. The paper,... NNadir Oct 11 #22
Doesn't matter where the electricity is being made Finishline42 Oct 12 #23
Once again, I cited a scientific source from a well respected SCIENTIST. NNadir Oct 12 #24
Brilliant timing... Finishline42 Oct 13 #25
I have a Lexus hybris, so essentially a toyota. Scrivener7 Oct 13 #26
We had a plug-in hybrid and traded it in for an all electric. Love the all electric so much more. Native Oct 13 #27
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