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Men's Group
In reply to the discussion: Let's talk about "Coercive Sex". [View all]Bonobo
(29,257 posts)78. Here is how Smith college defines sexual assault and consent
http://www.smith.edu/sao/sexualassaultresources/definition.php
The above warning that an implied threat of violence naturally invalidates the "yes" of consent. No one would argue with this. However, I do not think even Smith college would argue that pleading, begging or romancing would fall under the category of coercion.
NOW CONTRAST WITH THIS:
"Yes means maybe, and maybe means no"
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-two-yes/
What constitutes as consent?
You can't have sex with someone if they say "No." That is easy to understand. But the fact is that you cannot have sex with someone unless you have consent. So how do you know exactly what consent is? Generally defined, consent is an explicitly communicated, reversible, mutual agreement in which both parties are capable of making a decision. But sometimes it is more complicated than this.
Is it a simple "Yes"?
Does it have to be verbalized?
What if the person is drunk or high?
What if they don't say anything at all?
Can consent be implied?
This combination of cultural messages about sex and consent creates confusion over what exactly constitutes consent. To clarify:
Consent is a "Yes" in response to requests for sexual acts.
Silence is not consent.
"No" is not consent.
In Massachusetts, consent cannot be given by someone who is not of sound mind and body. Someone who is drunk, high, unconscious or mentally incompetent may not be able to give consent to a sexual act.
Submission is not necessarily consent. There is a fine line between persuasion and coercion. Having sex with someone who reasonably believes that there is a threat of force meets the legal definition of rape in Massachusetts.
The above warning that an implied threat of violence naturally invalidates the "yes" of consent. No one would argue with this. However, I do not think even Smith college would argue that pleading, begging or romancing would fall under the category of coercion.
NOW CONTRAST WITH THIS:
"Yes means maybe, and maybe means no"
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-two-yes/
Radical feminists argue that the concept of a straightforward yes is unique to those groups who dont experience pressure on their consent. A yes under pressure cant be unequivocally understood as yes because it may mean maybe or indeed no. The act of a man taking a womans yes as a yes is an act which directly denies conditions of sex inequality between men and women under patriarchy.
Properly, the radical feminist understanding of consent cant be summed-up as an x means y statement. When under duress, theres no such thing as a simple yes or no; the very idea of a statement meaning one of those things becomes questionable when an answer may have as much (or more) to do with the power factors at play than with what a person really wants to communicate.
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Yesterday I read on DU that preschool boys who knock down block towers are being trained to rape.
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#1
If they built the blocks to look like girls and fucked the structure first, maybe.
Gore1FL
May 2013
#6
What it was was taking an example of shitty parenting and trying to sketch some
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#7
I'm not sure that building and knocking over block buildings qualifies as shitty parenting, either.
Gore1FL
May 2013
#11
No, it was that the parents excused it by saying "boys will be boys", supposedly.
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#12
additional clarification: yes, the point of block towers is to build and knock them down.
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#13
They will continue to engage in it because they know it succeeds occassionally
Major Nikon
May 2013
#18
Very telling how some believe in the validity of guilt-by-association fallacies
Major Nikon
May 2013
#24
If you think about it, the only thing stopping you is a $15 domain registration
Major Nikon
May 2013
#26
Yeah, I really got a kick out of it at the time. It hit exactly the right spot for where I was in my
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#40
"the no means no meme is bullshit" - followed by quoting a nearly *30* year old study...
redqueen
May 2013
#45
You're still not answering the question. Why do you repeatedly quote a 25 year old study, alongside
redqueen
May 2013
#51
Are you seriously ignoring the subject being discussed (that "the no means no meme is bullshit")?
redqueen
May 2013
#42
Explain why you quote it along with your defense of Farrell being 'quoted out of context'. nt
redqueen
May 2013
#47
First try reading what was posted with and without context and see if you derive the same meaning
Major Nikon
May 2013
#48
ROFL, ... unfuckingreal. No, opiate69, THAT thread inspired THIS one. AS USUAL!
redqueen
May 2013
#57
Right.. because 3:50 pm today is before yesterday, which was when bonobo started this thread..
opiate69
May 2013
#61
Consent should be a bright line, clearly communicated and understood.
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#43
Yeah, like when they're married to someone they don't love, but don't want to cheat,
redqueen
May 2013
#60
I've said over and over that I don't give a flying philadelphia fuck about Warren Farrell.
Warren DeMontague
May 2013
#74
In no other realm would you expect me to substitute my judgement for hers.
lumberjack_jeff
May 2013
#80
For me, it's simply being conscientious of what the other person wants or doesn't want.
nomorenomore08
May 2013
#89
In general, I think I agree with you. And I think splitting hairs over someone's "real intentions"
nomorenomore08
May 2013
#91