General Discussion

kwassa

(23,340 posts)

198. You keep stating principles while I am talking history.

Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:40 PM

Jan 2015

I understand you feel you have no sense of responsibility. To me, it displays a remarkable lack of empathy towards less-fortunate people on your part, and to me that is a mindset I find common among conservative Americans. That is why I use the term with you. You think changing laws is enough to redress hundreds of years of abuse, which I see as completely inadequate. You also feel no collective responsibility as an American towards others in our society, which is libertarian, in my mind, also a conservative mindset.

You also apparently believe that discrimination against African-American ended with the end of slavery, which is simply ahistorical. I have yet to see any acknowledgement from you of post-Civil War discrimination that has continued through Jim Crow (do you know what that is?) and whose effects EXIST TODAY. People who are alive right now suffer from the historical and current effects of racism, and it is a continuum that hasn't ended. This isn't rewarding descendents of those who suffered from slavery, it is about compensating those who have suffered and are alive now.

Do you believe in the concept of white privilege, or do you also believe that to be a myth?

You also seem fixated on the idea of reparations. This is, at best, an academic argument as the possibility of reparations in this country ever happening is less likely than all Americans giving up their guns. There is no possibility of reparations happening.

But an excellent case could be made for reparations, and has.

This article, as I pointed out earlier, is that case, though despite it's title is not about reparations at all, but about the current effects of historical discrimination. It is a brilliant piece of writing by an editor of The Atlantic Monthly, who is the best current writer on race in America. Ta-nehisi Coates. This article had a huge impact when is was first published last June. I strongly recommend that you read it. Then we could have a more informed discussion on this topic.

The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.

Ta-Nehisi Coates
June 2014

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

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George W. Bush’s Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandfather Was a Slave Trader [View all] NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 OP

Mine mighta been too and I'm black. bravenak Jan 2015 #1

And your possible slave-trading ancestor? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #2

Who knows? bravenak Jan 2015 #3

there are many black people in the US who have some white ancestry JI7 Jan 2015 #14

understood. I just failed to see the significance, since the white children of slavers tended to NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #25

that's one of the reasons there should be reparations , but none of that means JI7 Jan 2015 #26

You cannot punish people Boreal Jan 2015 #30

But should they be rewarded? nichomachus Jan 2015 #47

People can and should be held accountable Boreal Jan 2015 #70

How are they going to be punished? former9thward Jan 2015 #166

nobody is being punished, reparations were given to Japanese, my family didn't immigrate here JI7 Jan 2015 #66

Japanese Boreal Jan 2015 #78

If I understand correctly, only those people who were actually interred received hughee99 Jan 2015 #157

How does one give money to people that have been interred? n/t Mugu Jan 2015 #202

Whoops, sorry. Interned. n/t hughee99 Jan 2015 #203

I knew that you meant interned. Mugu Jan 2015 #204

FedEx Ground. dawg Jan 2015 #207

Well done!!! n/t Mugu Jan 2015 #209

No one is blaming George Bush for slavery. I am saying George is a direct beneficiary of the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #41

do you support reparations for african americans ? JI7 Jan 2015 #65

AA's deserve reparations. Whether they would ultimately change people's situation much is open NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #93

i am the working class, and i class and race are not always the same, NYPD aren't not wealthy upper JI7 Jan 2015 #94

there's a lot of racism and so what? it serves the interests of rich new yorkers and politicians NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #102

no, i lay it at the feet of the racists, just because NYPD may not be wealthy upper class doesn't JI7 Jan 2015 #103

this is what is so sick and duplicitious about the conversation about race in america. racism is NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #126

i'm working class and make less money than nypd yet i'm not racist or support the choking of Garner JI7 Jan 2015 #133

His personal talents, intelligence have everything to do with his education loyalsister Jan 2015 #83

A lot of families benefited directly from slavery and some would say merrily Jan 2015 #143

Sorry, I don't see that getting lettuce for .5 cents cheaper equals the benefit the big shareholders NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #167

I apparently put all people on a par with the family that owns WalMart? Really? merrily Jan 2015 #169

What you said: NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #170

Also Africans Boreal Jan 2015 #29

Africans, however, didn't benefit from the trade for millenia. Not Africans living in Africa, nor NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #42

Newport Boreal Jan 2015 #139

Ain't that an inconvenient truth! MADem Jan 2015 #177

So true! bravenak Jan 2015 #179

Well, in that case ... hfojvt Jan 2015 #181

Behind every great fortune is a Sanity Claws Jan 2015 #4

Wasnt their first, I am sure and certainly was not their last randys1 Jan 2015 #5

OK. JK Rowling is richer than the Queen of England. Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #84

Her writing? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #171

Me neither. bravenak Jan 2015 #180

Did you ever read her Cormoran Strike books? Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #188

Nope. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #189

Yes, these are books for adults (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #196

Damn that Oprah! n/t hughee99 Jan 2015 #159

George W. Bush can be blamed for a lot of bad things bluestateguy Jan 2015 #6

The capital that originated in the slave trade was used to fund further capital accumulation. One NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #8

that's why many of us support reparations, but it doesn't mean bush and others are personally to JI7 Jan 2015 #12

You, j17, would make a great jeb supporter RobertEarl Jan 2015 #23

Who said they were? But they benefited, quite directly and personally. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #27

and that's why i support reparations JI7 Jan 2015 #28

But they continue the family tradition of practicing and promoting racism. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #37

that would be true regardless JI7 Jan 2015 #67

+ 100 JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #146

I understand this and I can relate to the whole idea of letting those people know CTyankee Jan 2015 #15

It's not a grudge; it's a crime. And I very much resent the line, which I see in this discussion NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #31

+1,000,000 Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #43

BS, many Blacks didn't benefit from New Deal and other Programs because of Racism JI7 Jan 2015 #75

you're the only person who brought up the effect of the new deal on black people. and you seem NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #90

thank you for these contributions.. grasswire Jan 2015 #104

We have all benefitted from slave trade Matrosov Jan 2015 #184

and, to paraphrase orwell, some have benefited way more than others. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #187

And Sherman A1 Jan 2015 #7

Yeah. You really can't help what people in your family line did in the past. alphafemale Jan 2015 #9

No but you can benifit from it via accumulation of power and weath and be d*ck... JanMichael Jan 2015 #11

Well nearly ALL white people have that benefit. alphafemale Jan 2015 #17

Why yes it does and it is still wrong. nt. JanMichael Jan 2015 #19

No, we nearly all -don't- have the same benefit that people like the Bushes had. Because most NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #32

just because you aren't as wealthy as the BUsh Family doesn't mean you didn't Benefit JI7 Jan 2015 #71

Doubtful. First, my family lines are mostly post Civil War & post-Jim Crow immigrants. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #89

because white skin privilege is real, look at the NYPD , they sure aren't wealthy but a big problem JI7 Jan 2015 #92

NYPD takes orders from people like Bloomberg and defends the interests of that class. Same as NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #95

you think Racism in the NYPD didn't exist before Bloomberg became Mayor and he is no longer mayor JI7 Jan 2015 #96

I'm sure racism existed before bloomberg and will exist after. But the police have always served NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #105

no, there actually ARE racists because they are racist , but you insist on making racists out to be JI7 Jan 2015 #108

really ? so you think the NYPD that choked Eric Garner and shot Michael Brown are victims like JI7 Jan 2015 #98

yeah, thats exactly what i said, j17. i also wonder why you're so vested in defending the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #107

nope, Jimmy Carter is wealthy and had slave owning ancestors and i don't see him as a problem JI7 Jan 2015 #110

The same is true of the carter and bush families: profit from the institution of slavery gave them NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #113

DeBlasio is Mayor of NYC , and Jimmy Carter is not the problem and not comparable to W Bush, the JI7 Jan 2015 #114

bloomberg is the symbol of the 'reconquista' of nyc for the wealthy and powerful. despite NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #116

you think cops only do what is policy ? chokeholds are banned by policy yet we saw JI7 Jan 2015 #117

yes and we see how often people get shitcanned for violating those fancy policies. that's the fault NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #120

there is no we . you lump racist cops in with eric garner as if they are all victims which is fucked JI7 Jan 2015 #121

What do you think about the whites who helped slaves cross from Kentucky into say Ohio? JDPriestly Jan 2015 #109

i don't have to explain that sentence to you, i didn't write it. it's a bad sentence, though i NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #115

The word ancestor in the sense used in the article is defined as follows: JDPriestly Jan 2015 #134

the slave trader was the ancestor of jefferson's wife and the source of some of jefferson's NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #137

Genetics. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #38

Precisely Sherman A1 Jan 2015 #129

there are enough horrible things about Bush , i'm sure many of us would have some shitty JI7 Jan 2015 #10

what don't you get about 'the bush family's position in life was built on wealth from the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #33

Not just slavery. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #172

yes. they seem to have more than their share of dubious business dealings, including those of NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #173

His grandfather edhopper Jan 2015 #13

or how about just blaming him for his own fuck ups JI7 Jan 2015 #16

True edhopper Jan 2015 #18

The apologies here are simply amazing RobertEarl Jan 2015 #20

I'm quite flabbergasted to see how deep the apologism goes. Yet the same people i think NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #34

what would you have us do or say about this information? uppityperson Jan 2015 #36

Do you heap the same kind of scorn on Katrina Browne Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #39

I imagine that Browne and Perry, even today, command more resources than the descendants NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #44

How about you read the post I was replying to Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #56

Understood, and ITA. nt Ilsa Jan 2015 #61

Damn you Fukushima! NuclearDem Jan 2015 #81

I could understand saying that this has Euphoria Jan 2015 #21

Who would pay them? Boreal Jan 2015 #35

Things could get pretty interesting pipi_k Jan 2015 #64

And what about Boreal Jan 2015 #77

But you see, that's the reason the rich talk up collective white guilt (even though most white NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #160

Yep. I have no guilt regarding slavery. TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2015 #185

Excellent points Boreal Jan 2015 #186

I knew it!!! ileus Jan 2015 #22

I just have one question... GummyBearz Jan 2015 #59

Barbara 'Pierce' Bush is related to... Blanks Jan 2015 #24

Reparations jeepers Jan 2015 #45

I support casting the high down from the mountains built with their ill-gotten wealth, personally. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #51

there will be racism and resentment regardless , there is resentment because the President is Black JI7 Jan 2015 #72

I have no objection to complaints about Bush concerning his own actions. branford Jan 2015 #40

I think every american should know who -really- benefited, and continues to benefit, from slavery. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #46

If you want to show the Bush family tree, go right ahead. branford Jan 2015 #53

so, you speak for most people? and what is your source for this knowledge? kwassa Jan 2015 #79

Yes, I have authority. branford Jan 2015 #87

No, you don't. kwassa Jan 2015 #193

You challenged my specific claim that most Americans do not support reparations branford Jan 2015 #194

I disagree kwassa Jan 2015 #195

This discussion is futile. branford Jan 2015 #197

You keep stating principles while I am talking history. kwassa Jan 2015 #198

Hold on . . . I most certainly never stated people today do not suffer from racism branford Jan 2015 #199

I am bothered by several things kwassa Jan 2015 #200

We are having a discussion on "Democratic Underground," branford Jan 2015 #201

We finally get down to the key of our disagreement: White privilege. kwassa Jan 2015 #205

The "abstract world of legal principle" is equal protection under the law branford Jan 2015 #206

Asian americans already make more money than whites and have more net worth, and have NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #211

The question is, branford Jan 2015 #212

I think the whole concept of 'white privilege' is muddle-headed. But i don't think asians would NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #229

I happen to think the situation of Asian-Americans particularly interesting. branford Jan 2015 #231

As I recall, affirmative action hasn't existed for years in california. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #232

I happen to agree with you. branford Jan 2015 #233

many can claim what they like. i think the fact that black admissions have dropped while asian NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #235

i didn't claim gwb owed anyone anything. i didnt claim gwb was responsible for slavery. i claimed NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #88

You said far more than that. branford Jan 2015 #99

I support taxing the wealthy very heavily to pay for reparations. I suppose that's a terrible NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #111

I'm a little confused. branford Jan 2015 #122

I support heavy taxation of the rich generally. It helps keep them honest. Black or white. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #123

This, I can agree with. bravenak Jan 2015 #149

I would venture 840high Jan 2015 #82

Ugh. Unrec. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #48

If you had ancestors who did despicable things and you're part of one of the most powerful NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #50

George W Bush is responsible for the actions of George W Bush. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #54

how powerful were the ones responsible for death of Emmett Till ? JI7 Jan 2015 #68

less powerful than the ones who instituted and ran the whole jim crow system in the interest NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #118

it's really disgusting how you keep excusing racists just because they don't own a mansion JI7 Jan 2015 #119

your apologism for power is equally disgusting in my eyes especially as you deflect their crimes NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #124

Cops in the NYPD have little power ? HAHAHAHA JI7 Jan 2015 #125

Not without the backing of their masters. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #127

Bush is a piece of shit , but i'm not going to blame him for racists in the NYPD or elsewhere JI7 Jan 2015 #132

You sure hooked a few, eh? RobertEarl Jan 2015 #130

now this thread is starting to make sense eShirl Jan 2015 #140

George W. Bush hfojvt Jan 2015 #178

...^ that 840high Jan 2015 #80

It's the principle of the old boys' club at work starroute Jan 2015 #49

It's excellent replies like this that keep me Ilsa Jan 2015 #58

very interesting history. and yes, i think these people are highly aware of where they came from. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #101

Great information, but I wonder about an overdose Jamastiene Jan 2015 #145

No typo starroute Jan 2015 #147

Thank you. Jamastiene Jan 2015 #191

What a surprise. RandySF Jan 2015 #52

My family is originally from Mississippi and I suspect they were too. That was many generations ago OregonBlue Jan 2015 #55

I'm not here to judge your family. But I know the Bush history, and it's clear that capital amassed NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #57

That may be true but George and Jeb didn't do that. Nor would they do it today. OregonBlue Jan 2015 #210

Did your family get rich off it and are you still benefiting by it? starroute Jan 2015 #73

There are so many good reasons to criticize W, Jeb and Poppy . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #60

+1 840high Jan 2015 #85

Everyone has 64 great-great-great-great-grandparents. Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #86

The slavetrader's grandson, and great grandfather of GHWB. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #131

Great post YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #213

Lotta people in this thread confident of the purity of their ancestry back then.. (nt) Posteritatis Jan 2015 #62

so what? wildbilln864 Jan 2015 #63

Dear OP, WHy don't you answer my question about Reparations ? JI7 Jan 2015 #69

Since you want an answer, I'll give you a couple starroute Jan 2015 #74

"people of color are poor, often in debt, poorly educated, and without any experience in managing JI7 Jan 2015 #76

WTF is that? Offensive. Igel Jan 2015 #97

much of that is due to racism, not incompetence on the part of african americans JI7 Jan 2015 #100

actually, much of it is due to law & policing, put in place by rich people. not some generalized NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #162

If that's your model of reparations, it's clearly misplaced starroute Jan 2015 #106

of course the system has to change, doesn't mean there can't be reparations JI7 Jan 2015 #112

Would you be willing to let the next generation upaloopa Jan 2015 #182

Would you favor reparations only for those who could prove they were descended from slaves, Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #91

There were mixed race slaves. bravenak Jan 2015 #150

Big time prison slave labor, to rival any other country in the world. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #183

Wow, just wow! I had no idea that the Bush family was so steeped in racism/slavery! Major Hogwash Jan 2015 #128

fascinating Niceguy1 Jan 2015 #135

"we" don't? when the son is beneficiary of the sins of the father, i'm for publicizing the fact. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #136

it is time to move on Niceguy1 Jan 2015 #141

I see no reason for the public not to know that the Bushes ancestors built the family fortunes on NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #168

The article refers to Jefferson's father-in-law as Jefferson's ancestor. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #138

According to wiki, the father of Sen. Prescott Bush was Samuel Prescott Bush, which seems to make merrily Jan 2015 #142

I think you may be confused about the geneaology posted in the OP: NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #151

Yes, I did miss that it was only the side of the Senator's wife. Thank you for merrily Jan 2015 #153

The Bush side has its slavery-related history as well. For example, NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #155

I will gladly take info on factual matters. merrily Jan 2015 #156

as i've not said anything about that, i'm happy you "don't agree" with my non-existent comments. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #158

I read the thread before making my original post and think my reply 156 was very fair, given merrily Jan 2015 #161

I'm sorry you think so. The fact is, I have consistently and explicitly said that the origins of NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #165

PS: Senator Bush wasn't Samuel Prescott Bush. Sam Prescott was an armaments manufacturer, NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #174

I know. I didn't say the Senator's name was Samuel. I said his father's was. I linked to both wikis. merrily Jan 2015 #175

Any idea what his other 63 great-great-great-great grandparents did? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #144

Explains the attitude toward Social Security, let alone raising minimum wage, today... Octafish Jan 2015 #148

+100 NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #163

Cap'n Tom didn't even make it to 40. Murdered at sea in a mutiny KentuckyWoman Jan 2015 #152

So what. People today not responsible for ancestors. on point Jan 2015 #154

good thing nobody said that, then. however, it's good for people to know that many of the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #164

Ahh, corruption of blood... n/t bobclark86 Jan 2015 #176

Um, so? MohRokTah Jan 2015 #190

George W. Bush is a torturer and war criminal. undeterred Jan 2015 #192

We have to realize that many great-great-great-great grandfathers were mfcorey1 Jan 2015 #208

My great-grandfather was a Freemason who married a Catholic and converted YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #214

I know that. But 'a lot of people' don't owe their present fortune and status to them. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #234

And Jimmy Carter's owned about 80 of them. Glassunion Jan 2015 #215

Do you have a link for that? I don't doubt you, but it's hard to pin numbers down. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #216

Here is an old news article. My recollection was from an old project I did back in HS. Glassunion Jan 2015 #217

ok, maybe i didn't missed it in reading it, but i didn't see anything about the number of slaves NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #218

2nd column, 4th paragraph. Glassunion Jan 2015 #219

thanks. but what i read is: NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #220

Welcome back! zappaman Jan 2015 #221

This was simply a point of contention that hits home. Glassunion Jan 2015 #222

i disagree with you (and the many others who've said more or less the same). if slavery was the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #226

I understand where you are coming from. Glassunion Jan 2015 #228

is your family in the top 1%? did their present power originate in slave-gotten wealth? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #230

We should be aware of history. I agree 100% Glassunion Jan 2015 #237

They were brothers. Glassunion Jan 2015 #223

yes, but james was the jimmy carter ancestor, correct? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #224

Yes. Glassunion Jan 2015 #225

so if you have a reference for the '80 slaves'. i'm quite sure the carters owned slaves, in NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #227

Back in my day there were many micro films, index cards, etc... pre internet and all... Glassunion Jan 2015 #236