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KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)

175. Then He Is And Will Remain A Fugitive...

Sat Aug 10, 2013, 01:54 PM

Aug 2013

...not all cases are the same. Once again...like a broken record...Manning was tried under military rules where Snowden has been indicted by a federal court. It will not be a jury of military judges that decide his fate but a jury of 12 American citizens...not "political tools". I guess you have very little faith in your fellow citizens to know if someone is guilty or not...and seem to condone lawbreaking if it suits your agenda. Sorry...that's not how a functioning civil society works. Again, Snowden has more to offer by coming here and exposing the corruption and lawbreaking he claims to have witnessed than hiding away in some foreign country whose record on civil liberties (especially if you're GLBT) is far worse than anything anyone faces in this country.

For someone who supposedly is for openess and exposing corruption, his running away and hiding reeks of rank hypocrisy...

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Where did the meme come from that civil disobedience requires you to sit in jail afterwards? [View all] backscatter712 Aug 2013 OP

Exactly. The downsides of the civil rights era can't compare. dkf Aug 2013 #1

Only because you did not face them. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #134

+1 Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #143

The risks were higher from the public than from the government. dkf Aug 2013 #151

you have no fucking clue what you are talking about Californeeway Aug 2013 #208

Was that the Government who did that? dkf Aug 2013 #209

I disagree with the dismissive wording of the post you are responding to. antigone382 Aug 2013 #210

You're absolutely right. Th1onein Aug 2013 #2

Just since the NSA apologist Democrat occupying the WH took over from his criminal MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #3

Post removed Post removed Aug 2013 #5

I'm willing to believe agent46 Aug 2013 #23

Agree, we really IMO see so little of what is really going on behind the scenes, the pressures, the RKP5637 Aug 2013 #82

He is the head of the Democratic Party, so as a factual matter geek tragedy Aug 2013 #26

"The vast majority of Democratd" HangOnKids Aug 2013 #46

It's bad form to make fun of someone just because of a simple typo. n/t totodeinhere Aug 2013 #204

Yes, we do reject the fringe that has suddenly appeared over the past few years supporting sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #126

The Democrats have always had a Conservadem fringe. geek tragedy Aug 2013 #140

Yes, and they didn't control the party, otherwise we would never have had SS, Civil Rights sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #152

+ a gazillion. nt Mojorabbit Aug 2013 #170

President Obama is a Trojan Horse? Care to expand on that meme? nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #60

Please do at least consider the possibility that Cheney's NSA got the drop on him starting in, oh, HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #64

I'll say it again: Bill Hicks called it! backscatter712 Aug 2013 #166

Yup. progressoid Aug 2013 #27

Having the courage of your convictions. Furthermore, standing for trial would enable much more info KittyWampus Aug 2013 #4

"standing for trial would enable much more info to come out" cthulu2016 Aug 2013 #8

Plenty... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #94

Yeah right! mazzarro Aug 2013 #144

Once Again... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #150

Someone who did exactly as you are suggesting Snowden do, Drake, who went through sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #172

Then He Is And Will Remain A Fugitive... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #175

BS MattSh Aug 2013 #43

Did Manning's trial enable much more info to come out? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #50

Quite a bit. If you take a look at his sentencing hearing, Manning has benefitted msanthrope Aug 2013 #58

"Open testimony in court" didn't prevent Manning from being tortured while in pre-trial HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #66

Kindly show me where his lawyer claims 'torture?' nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #70

The Article 13 Motion filed in 2012 . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #110

So, his lawyer isn't using the word 'torture' in his legal filings? Being a lawyer myself, I know msanthrope Aug 2013 #119

Not a word of what you wrote is true. morningfog Aug 2013 #56

+1...nt SidDithers Aug 2013 #74

The man had courage of his convictions enough to be willing . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #103

I doubt it. The judge would probably agree to censoring what information comes out in the totodeinhere Aug 2013 #205

If a person decides to commit felonies they should man-up and take responsibility... Tx4obama Aug 2013 #6

Oh jezuz... Like draft dodging? Smoking pot? cthulu2016 Aug 2013 #9

Excellent response to this meme! nt Pholus Aug 2013 #52

+Infinity! - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #67

+1000000 nt Tien1985 Aug 2013 #92

Letter from Birmingham Jail is pretty instructive-- msanthrope Aug 2013 #146

Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment Zorra Aug 2013 #16

"Man-up" Hissyspit Aug 2013 #18

Okay, so everyone who has a noteworthy amount of weed should turn themselves in? Scootaloo Aug 2013 #25

There is a huge difference between treestar Aug 2013 #59

Nope. Felony is felony. Scootaloo Aug 2013 #179

Why? dairydog91 Aug 2013 #79

Underground Railroad, big time illegal action. Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Bluenorthwest Aug 2013 #81

I'm handling the amorality of what they are saying with the ignore function. Zorra Aug 2013 #124

Especially ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #142

Well, ProSense Aug 2013 #7

My impression was that Snowden wasn't trying to be like MLK or Gandhi. gtar100 Aug 2013 #41

Whether or not John Lewis approves of Snowden's actions... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #130

Daniel Ellsberg seems to agree: backscatter712 Aug 2013 #10

"The country...was a different America". With far different Democrats. n/t jtuck004 Aug 2013 #11

Good point. nt MannyGoldstein Aug 2013 #12

I do believe it's part of what gives moral authority mythology Aug 2013 #13

Snowden is paying a price. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #15

Don't forget 'force feedings' (currently being used on Gitmo hunger strikers) - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #69

Gandhi and King and Lewis had millions at their backs Scootaloo Aug 2013 #36

Indeed they did! And they also weren't facing the likelihood of spending . . . markpkessinger Aug 2013 #105

They were facing death. Snowden merely faces prison. He's a coward. nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #132

Ghandi, King, and Lewis faced death. Death. Snowden faces due process. He's a coward. nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #139

What an odd standard you hold Scootaloo Aug 2013 #178

I have no patience for cowards who flee the US legal system. And he is a coward. nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #180

I'm so glad for you that you're such a tough, principled person Scootaloo Aug 2013 #182

Likening an Obama supporter to a gorilla is principled? That's awesome. nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #184

Well, you're the one grunting and thumping your chest Scootaloo Aug 2013 #187

Okay--so now, you are telling a female Obama supporter she's acting like a gorilla? nt msanthrope Aug 2013 #188

You need to make up your mind exactly what it is you're trying so hard to be offended by Scootaloo Aug 2013 #189

Let me see if I have this correctly--I called Edward Snowden a coward, and you, who are not msanthrope Aug 2013 #190

I'm trying to figure out what your argument is Scootaloo Aug 2013 #198

Why are you so offended by my calling Snowden a coward, and why would you think to call another DUer msanthrope Aug 2013 #199

I'm not offended. Bemused, sure. Amused, definitely Scootaloo Aug 2013 #202

Now you've called me a 'penis.' What is up with you? In your lecture to us on porn, msanthrope Aug 2013 #203

Now you're just getting desperate Scootaloo Aug 2013 #206

I find people who flee lawful indictments to be cowards. He isn't facing death--he's facing msanthrope Aug 2013 #207

apartheid & segregation were things the majority initially *knew* were going on, but believed HiPointDem Aug 2013 #49

This ^^^^ treestar Aug 2013 #63

It's a possible choice. But it's not "civil disobedience" unless you subject yourself to the pnwmom Aug 2013 #14

Well what Snowden did was not civil disobedience. zeemike Aug 2013 #17

He didn't just blow the whistle on something that was unconstitutional. pnwmom Aug 2013 #19

Oh, no one is suppose to mention that.. that's not part of the St snowden bio.. Cha Aug 2013 #21

What information did he leak about Russia? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #51

It is not his call treestar Aug 2013 #65

Yes it is his call. zeemike Aug 2013 #102

Snowden isn't in the military so he couldn't have been put in a military prison. pnwmom Aug 2013 #153

It is his call... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #135

The Whistleblower Protection Act doesn't cover national security contractors riderinthestorm Aug 2013 #141

Au contraire. "Policy-based" civil disobedience occurs when a person breaks the law in order to Zorra Aug 2013 #149

It's not a "meme".. it's the law.. if you commit a crime you're subject to the Cha Aug 2013 #20

"if you commit a crime you're subject to the punishment.." Apparently not war criminals. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #22

+1 Or banks. nt woo me with science Aug 2013 #29

Or banksters nxylas Aug 2013 #32

Hot Water Ichingcarpenter Aug 2013 #45

+Infinity! - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #71

Right Cha treestar Aug 2013 #68

So true Cha. great white snark Aug 2013 #95

"Reporting his hacking through the proper channels"... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #137

More "proper channels" bullshit wtmusic Aug 2013 #154

I think the problem many people have ecstatic Aug 2013 #24

There's not agreement on that in the definition of civil disobedience. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #28

It's a tactic developed by American civil rights activists. Deep13 Aug 2013 #30

It's about a century older than the Civil Rights Movement Recursion Aug 2013 #98

I see. nt Deep13 Aug 2013 #148

Henry David Thoreau jberryhill Aug 2013 #31

You know Mandela operated underground until he was captured, right? Scootaloo Aug 2013 #39

Mandela was also a violent militant at first Recursion Aug 2013 #120

Thoreau hedgehog Aug 2013 #131

You forgot the "ur" example: Jesus. baldguy Aug 2013 #211

You base your entire argument as if Snowden was military, like Manning. Amonester Aug 2013 #33

Really great post. And I'm glad woo me with science Aug 2013 #34

Depends upon what you're protesting. Fire Walk With Me Aug 2013 #35

Nice...............nt Enthusiast Aug 2013 #116

It came from people who have two issues.. PorridgeGun Aug 2013 #37

wow. limpyhobbler Aug 2013 #76

I see you are a relatively low-count poster here so far, but I do hope you will consider HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #77

Thank you. I attempted to report everything to anyone who would listen PorridgeGun Aug 2013 #183

Incredible post. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #117

Thanks a bunch! PorridgeGun Aug 2013 #185

Another +1 to this post. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #136

Indeed! Thanks for the bump :) PorridgeGun Aug 2013 #186

Facing the consequences of one's actions, Summer Hathaway Aug 2013 #38

Amen. I continue to be flabbergasted by how little so many people in this forum know about Number23 Aug 2013 #42

I share your astonishment Summer Hathaway Aug 2013 #44

You are deliberately misinterpreting the point about civil disobedience as a TACTIC chimpymustgo Aug 2013 #72

Pretending that this is all about civil disobedience is laughable. n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #85

Way to go! Burn that strawman! dairydog91 Aug 2013 #91

You suggest that we "Think about black men in the south"... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #157

The "Snowden's cowardice" cheap shot. Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #167

Value of publicity shanen Aug 2013 #40

Excellent points! n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #174

kr. and the us has a death penalty. HiPointDem Aug 2013 #47

du rec. xchrom Aug 2013 #48

Agreed JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #53

I remeber that there were lots of people who agreed with Timothy McVeigh also. kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #54

Psst...it's been a secret truebluegreen Aug 2013 #86

The longer this drags on JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #111

From the government, of course. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #55

I am sorry you missed this bit of seminal American History and a lesson on the law--- msanthrope Aug 2013 #57

Exactly. The 'civil' part of 'civil disobedience' versus 'anarchy'. randome Aug 2013 #88

This is how a Patriot acts. I lament that 'civics' is so little taught. Snowden is a coward, msanthrope Aug 2013 #89

He committed a crime treestar Aug 2013 #61

The government violated the Constitution... davidn3600 Aug 2013 #73

The government does not treestar Aug 2013 #80

The government cannot enforce laws that violate the constitution davidn3600 Aug 2013 #83

Classifying documents in order to conceal government misconduct is itself illegal n/t markpkessinger Aug 2013 #101

K&R - nt HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #62

As Snowden has made clear, you only have to go to jail if they catch you. bemildred Aug 2013 #75

Simply put... 99Forever Aug 2013 #78

+1. They're PO'ed he escaped, and that's why they engage in the petty smears and insults. reformist2 Aug 2013 #87

It's stomach-turning to watch them hide behind figures like MLK or Nelson Mandela Marr Aug 2013 #106

As someone who has been arrested for my civil disobedience, I don't hide behind msanthrope Aug 2013 #125

Well, congratulations. Marr Aug 2013 #127

Well, neither you nor I did anything that merits life in prison. The point is don't do the msanthrope Aug 2013 #128

That's awfully glib. Marr Aug 2013 #138

I don't think that's an apt comparison because the degree of potential harm to an individual msanthrope Aug 2013 #145

The next time there are ProSense Aug 2013 #84

Civil disobediance does require courage though. hack89 Aug 2013 #90

It's a silly idea that comes from nowhere, simply made up Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #93

Except for, you know, Thoreau, who coined the term (nt) Recursion Aug 2013 #97

So what? Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #99

Just to answer your direct question: Thoreau is where it comes from Recursion Aug 2013 #96

This really, really needed to be said -- thank you! markpkessinger Aug 2013 #100

Anyone else find it interesting that the people who say Snowden needs to Marr Aug 2013 #104

I have been detecting this weird undercurrent of sado-masochism in the posts of those HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #108

I've noticed the same thing. Marr Aug 2013 #113

Very interesting indeed. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #147

he still wouldn't get their 'respect' KG Aug 2013 #158

Exactly. It's their talking point... backscatter712 Aug 2013 #161

From people that are opposed to the goals of civil disobedience. JoeyT Aug 2013 #107

No kidding. These are the same people who so assiduously told everyone that OWS Marr Aug 2013 #114

I remember that. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #159

It came from Henry David Thoreau's 1849 Essay, MineralMan Aug 2013 #109

Interestingly, though, Thoreau also highly approved of John Brown who HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #115

He did, yes. He also wrote the essay in question. MineralMan Aug 2013 #118

Oh, I know. I mentioned Brown only b/c Gandhi and MLK, Jr. are synonymous HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #121

Yes, the concept of non-violence came much later. MineralMan Aug 2013 #122

Not sure Brown would have agreed with Gandhi or MLK, Jr. But I think your HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #123

To clarify: that is only Thoreau's opinion, not the commonly accepted modern definition. Zorra Aug 2013 #160

Kicked and Recommended. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #112

Probably the private prison corporations. malthaussen Aug 2013 #129

From the folks that actually practiced ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #133

Ouch Recursion Aug 2013 #155

Sorry, that is absolutely subjective, illogical, and ludicrous. Zorra Aug 2013 #164

Okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #212

awesome post Vattel Aug 2013 #156

Espionage becomes civil disobedience so Progressive dog Aug 2013 #162

It came from a system that would prefer that dissidents turn themselves in cthulu2016 Aug 2013 #163

I think you're right! "You must submit as you disobey!" backscatter712 Aug 2013 #165

as if civil disobedience should be codified. like the Marquise of Queensbury. KG Aug 2013 #168

I couldn't have said it better myself. n/t backscatter712 Aug 2013 #169

Especially inapplicable where laws (like the Espionage Act) are being abused. DirkGently Aug 2013 #171

Where did it come from?? Probably from a contract issued to one of our Private Security sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #173

Good possibility. And how could any reasonable person buy into this irrational meme Zorra Aug 2013 #176

Well, when the obvious sacrifices required when you decide that you will have to sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #177

But here's what I find really puzzling: People cite MLK as an example of a perpetrator Zorra Aug 2013 #191

Yep. Stratfor, or Booz Allen. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #194

You're looking for logic where there is none. You are correct though, it is insane to sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #200

Yep, back in the sixties we were struggling to bring in the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. Cleita Aug 2013 #181

Gandhi, MLK - but what do they know? They aren't Edward The Great Man Snowden arely staircase Aug 2013 #192

So the tens of thousands who acted with King and Gandhi who weren't jailed for it Zorra Aug 2013 #195

just the ones who ran off to russia nt arely staircase Aug 2013 #196

Like many bad ideas, it originated with Henry David Thoreau Tom Ripley Aug 2013 #193

I didn't say it was a bad idea. backscatter712 Aug 2013 #197

K & R !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #201