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In reply to the discussion: Where did the meme come from that civil disobedience requires you to sit in jail afterwards? [View all]markpkessinger
(8,871 posts)100. This really, really needed to be said -- thank you!
A couple of weeks ago, in response to an article that appeared in The Nation titled, "A Letter to Edward Snowden," I tried to make a similar point (albeit not as eloquently as you have done here) in response to a commenter who took issue with the article's comparison of Snowden to the likes of King and Mandela. That person commented:
This letter is offensive to real heroes like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, who were willing to go to prison for what they stood for, by comparing Edward Snowden to them. Hell, Martin Luther King gave his own life.
To support his argument about Mandela, he relied on the following quote of Mandela:
"In a way I had never quite comprehended before, I realized the role I could play in court and the possibilities before me as a defendant. I was the symbol of justice in the court of the oppressor, the representative of the great ideals of freedom, fairness and democracy in a society that dishonored those virtues. I realized then and there that I could carry on the fight even in the fortress of the enemy."
In response, I pointed out that Mandela did not willingly submit to South African authorities. When Mandela was arrested, he had recently been in another part of Africa receiving military training. He sneaked back into South Africa to lead a band of saboteurs, having grown frustrated with the lack of positive results from the ANC's previous, peaceful efforts. On the day he was arrested, he and an associate were driving from Johannesburg to Durban, when a police car swerved in front of them, stopping the car. Mandela initially tried to pose as a chauffeur, using the alias David Motsamayi, but the police did not believe him. The only thing Mandela willingly did in all of this was choose not to use the revolver in the glove compartment of the car he was in (which probably would have been suicidal). None of this takes away from the greatness of the man, but the suggestion that he willingly submitted to arrest is pure fiction. The realization that he could be effective even while imprisoned, which the quote refers to, was one he came to after he was arrested and imprisoned, not before.
Likewise the suggestion that Dr. King "willingly" gave his life is utter nonsense. Dr. King's life was taken away from him by a murderer. Yes, he was willing (as was John Lewis) to go to jail on several occasions, but the fact is neither he nor any other civil rights activist was facing the likelihood of a life sentence, nor even a terribly long sentence, such as Snowden certainly faces if he returns.
Whether or not one believes Snowden is on par with the likes of King or Mandela, the U.S. government is seeking to make an example of him (indeed, much as they are doing with Bradley Manning). The suggestion that anybody who has -- as you concede Snowden has -- done the right thing should willingly submit to that is simply insane.
Here's a link to my original comment on the article in The Nation.
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Where did the meme come from that civil disobedience requires you to sit in jail afterwards? [View all]
backscatter712
Aug 2013
OP
Just since the NSA apologist Democrat occupying the WH took over from his criminal
MotherPetrie
Aug 2013
#3
Agree, we really IMO see so little of what is really going on behind the scenes, the pressures, the
RKP5637
Aug 2013
#82
Yes, we do reject the fringe that has suddenly appeared over the past few years supporting
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#126
Yes, and they didn't control the party, otherwise we would never have had SS, Civil Rights
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#152
Please do at least consider the possibility that Cheney's NSA got the drop on him starting in, oh,
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#64
Having the courage of your convictions. Furthermore, standing for trial would enable much more info
KittyWampus
Aug 2013
#4
Someone who did exactly as you are suggesting Snowden do, Drake, who went through
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#172
Quite a bit. If you take a look at his sentencing hearing, Manning has benefitted
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#58
"Open testimony in court" didn't prevent Manning from being tortured while in pre-trial
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#66
So, his lawyer isn't using the word 'torture' in his legal filings? Being a lawyer myself, I know
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#119
I doubt it. The judge would probably agree to censoring what information comes out in the
totodeinhere
Aug 2013
#205
If a person decides to commit felonies they should man-up and take responsibility...
Tx4obama
Aug 2013
#6
Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment
Zorra
Aug 2013
#16
Okay, so everyone who has a noteworthy amount of weed should turn themselves in?
Scootaloo
Aug 2013
#25
Underground Railroad, big time illegal action. Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#81
Don't forget 'force feedings' (currently being used on Gitmo hunger strikers) - nt
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#69
Indeed they did! And they also weren't facing the likelihood of spending . . .
markpkessinger
Aug 2013
#105
Ghandi, King, and Lewis faced death. Death. Snowden faces due process. He's a coward. nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#139
I have no patience for cowards who flee the US legal system. And he is a coward. nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#180
Okay--so now, you are telling a female Obama supporter she's acting like a gorilla? nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#188
You need to make up your mind exactly what it is you're trying so hard to be offended by
Scootaloo
Aug 2013
#189
Let me see if I have this correctly--I called Edward Snowden a coward, and you, who are not
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#190
Why are you so offended by my calling Snowden a coward, and why would you think to call another DUer
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#199
Now you've called me a 'penis.' What is up with you? In your lecture to us on porn,
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#203
I find people who flee lawful indictments to be cowards. He isn't facing death--he's facing
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#207
apartheid & segregation were things the majority initially *knew* were going on, but believed
HiPointDem
Aug 2013
#49
It's a possible choice. But it's not "civil disobedience" unless you subject yourself to the
pnwmom
Aug 2013
#14
Snowden isn't in the military so he couldn't have been put in a military prison.
pnwmom
Aug 2013
#153
The Whistleblower Protection Act doesn't cover national security contractors
riderinthestorm
Aug 2013
#141
Au contraire. "Policy-based" civil disobedience occurs when a person breaks the law in order to
Zorra
Aug 2013
#149
"if you commit a crime you're subject to the punishment.." Apparently not war criminals.
AnotherMcIntosh
Aug 2013
#22
I see you are a relatively low-count poster here so far, but I do hope you will consider
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#77
Amen. I continue to be flabbergasted by how little so many people in this forum know about
Number23
Aug 2013
#42
You are deliberately misinterpreting the point about civil disobedience as a TACTIC
chimpymustgo
Aug 2013
#72
I remeber that there were lots of people who agreed with Timothy McVeigh also.
kelliekat44
Aug 2013
#54
I am sorry you missed this bit of seminal American History and a lesson on the law---
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#57
This is how a Patriot acts. I lament that 'civics' is so little taught. Snowden is a coward,
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#89
Classifying documents in order to conceal government misconduct is itself illegal n/t
markpkessinger
Aug 2013
#101
+1. They're PO'ed he escaped, and that's why they engage in the petty smears and insults.
reformist2
Aug 2013
#87
It's stomach-turning to watch them hide behind figures like MLK or Nelson Mandela
Marr
Aug 2013
#106
As someone who has been arrested for my civil disobedience, I don't hide behind
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#125
Well, neither you nor I did anything that merits life in prison. The point is don't do the
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#128
I don't think that's an apt comparison because the degree of potential harm to an individual
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#145
I have been detecting this weird undercurrent of sado-masochism in the posts of those
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#108
To clarify: that is only Thoreau's opinion, not the commonly accepted modern definition.
Zorra
Aug 2013
#160
Especially inapplicable where laws (like the Espionage Act) are being abused.
DirkGently
Aug 2013
#171
Where did it come from?? Probably from a contract issued to one of our Private Security
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#173
Good possibility. And how could any reasonable person buy into this irrational meme
Zorra
Aug 2013
#176
Well, when the obvious sacrifices required when you decide that you will have to
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#177
But here's what I find really puzzling: People cite MLK as an example of a perpetrator
Zorra
Aug 2013
#191
You're looking for logic where there is none. You are correct though, it is insane to
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#200
Yep, back in the sixties we were struggling to bring in the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
Cleita
Aug 2013
#181
Gandhi, MLK - but what do they know? They aren't Edward The Great Man Snowden
arely staircase
Aug 2013
#192