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In reply to the discussion: Where did the meme come from that civil disobedience requires you to sit in jail afterwards? [View all]msanthrope
(37,549 posts)57. I am sorry you missed this bit of seminal American History and a lesson on the law---
(Snip)There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an "I it" relationship for an "I thou" relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and sinful. Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness? Thus it is that I can urge men to obey the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court, for it is morally right; and I can urge them to disobey segregation ordinances, for they are morally wrong.
Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal. Let me give another explanation. A law is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law. Who can say that the legislature of Alabama which set up that state's segregation laws was democratically elected? Throughout Alabama all sorts of devious methods are used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters, and there are some counties in which, even though Negroes constitute a majority of the population, not a single Negro is registered. Can any law enacted under such circumstances be considered democratically structured?
Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First-Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest.
I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an "I it" relationship for an "I thou" relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and sinful. Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness? Thus it is that I can urge men to obey the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court, for it is morally right; and I can urge them to disobey segregation ordinances, for they are morally wrong.
Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal. Let me give another explanation. A law is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law. Who can say that the legislature of Alabama which set up that state's segregation laws was democratically elected? Throughout Alabama all sorts of devious methods are used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters, and there are some counties in which, even though Negroes constitute a majority of the population, not a single Negro is registered. Can any law enacted under such circumstances be considered democratically structured?
Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First-Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest.
I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
Indeed, can one really mount a moral argument that surmounts Dr. King's? Snowden had legal recourse available to him--he just didn't want to suffer consequences. The avoidance of suffering the natural consequences of one's actions marks him a coward in this situation.
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Where did the meme come from that civil disobedience requires you to sit in jail afterwards? [View all]
backscatter712
Aug 2013
OP
Just since the NSA apologist Democrat occupying the WH took over from his criminal
MotherPetrie
Aug 2013
#3
Agree, we really IMO see so little of what is really going on behind the scenes, the pressures, the
RKP5637
Aug 2013
#82
Yes, we do reject the fringe that has suddenly appeared over the past few years supporting
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#126
Yes, and they didn't control the party, otherwise we would never have had SS, Civil Rights
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#152
Please do at least consider the possibility that Cheney's NSA got the drop on him starting in, oh,
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#64
Having the courage of your convictions. Furthermore, standing for trial would enable much more info
KittyWampus
Aug 2013
#4
Someone who did exactly as you are suggesting Snowden do, Drake, who went through
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#172
Quite a bit. If you take a look at his sentencing hearing, Manning has benefitted
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#58
"Open testimony in court" didn't prevent Manning from being tortured while in pre-trial
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#66
So, his lawyer isn't using the word 'torture' in his legal filings? Being a lawyer myself, I know
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#119
I doubt it. The judge would probably agree to censoring what information comes out in the
totodeinhere
Aug 2013
#205
If a person decides to commit felonies they should man-up and take responsibility...
Tx4obama
Aug 2013
#6
Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment
Zorra
Aug 2013
#16
Okay, so everyone who has a noteworthy amount of weed should turn themselves in?
Scootaloo
Aug 2013
#25
Underground Railroad, big time illegal action. Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#81
Don't forget 'force feedings' (currently being used on Gitmo hunger strikers) - nt
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#69
Indeed they did! And they also weren't facing the likelihood of spending . . .
markpkessinger
Aug 2013
#105
Ghandi, King, and Lewis faced death. Death. Snowden faces due process. He's a coward. nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#139
I have no patience for cowards who flee the US legal system. And he is a coward. nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#180
Okay--so now, you are telling a female Obama supporter she's acting like a gorilla? nt
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#188
You need to make up your mind exactly what it is you're trying so hard to be offended by
Scootaloo
Aug 2013
#189
Let me see if I have this correctly--I called Edward Snowden a coward, and you, who are not
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#190
Why are you so offended by my calling Snowden a coward, and why would you think to call another DUer
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#199
Now you've called me a 'penis.' What is up with you? In your lecture to us on porn,
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#203
I find people who flee lawful indictments to be cowards. He isn't facing death--he's facing
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#207
apartheid & segregation were things the majority initially *knew* were going on, but believed
HiPointDem
Aug 2013
#49
It's a possible choice. But it's not "civil disobedience" unless you subject yourself to the
pnwmom
Aug 2013
#14
Snowden isn't in the military so he couldn't have been put in a military prison.
pnwmom
Aug 2013
#153
The Whistleblower Protection Act doesn't cover national security contractors
riderinthestorm
Aug 2013
#141
Au contraire. "Policy-based" civil disobedience occurs when a person breaks the law in order to
Zorra
Aug 2013
#149
"if you commit a crime you're subject to the punishment.." Apparently not war criminals.
AnotherMcIntosh
Aug 2013
#22
I see you are a relatively low-count poster here so far, but I do hope you will consider
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#77
Amen. I continue to be flabbergasted by how little so many people in this forum know about
Number23
Aug 2013
#42
You are deliberately misinterpreting the point about civil disobedience as a TACTIC
chimpymustgo
Aug 2013
#72
I remeber that there were lots of people who agreed with Timothy McVeigh also.
kelliekat44
Aug 2013
#54
I am sorry you missed this bit of seminal American History and a lesson on the law---
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#57
This is how a Patriot acts. I lament that 'civics' is so little taught. Snowden is a coward,
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#89
Classifying documents in order to conceal government misconduct is itself illegal n/t
markpkessinger
Aug 2013
#101
+1. They're PO'ed he escaped, and that's why they engage in the petty smears and insults.
reformist2
Aug 2013
#87
It's stomach-turning to watch them hide behind figures like MLK or Nelson Mandela
Marr
Aug 2013
#106
As someone who has been arrested for my civil disobedience, I don't hide behind
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#125
Well, neither you nor I did anything that merits life in prison. The point is don't do the
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#128
I don't think that's an apt comparison because the degree of potential harm to an individual
msanthrope
Aug 2013
#145
I have been detecting this weird undercurrent of sado-masochism in the posts of those
HardTimes99
Aug 2013
#108
To clarify: that is only Thoreau's opinion, not the commonly accepted modern definition.
Zorra
Aug 2013
#160
Especially inapplicable where laws (like the Espionage Act) are being abused.
DirkGently
Aug 2013
#171
Where did it come from?? Probably from a contract issued to one of our Private Security
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#173
Good possibility. And how could any reasonable person buy into this irrational meme
Zorra
Aug 2013
#176
Well, when the obvious sacrifices required when you decide that you will have to
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#177
But here's what I find really puzzling: People cite MLK as an example of a perpetrator
Zorra
Aug 2013
#191
You're looking for logic where there is none. You are correct though, it is insane to
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#200
Yep, back in the sixties we were struggling to bring in the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
Cleita
Aug 2013
#181
Gandhi, MLK - but what do they know? They aren't Edward The Great Man Snowden
arely staircase
Aug 2013
#192