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arely staircase

(12,482 posts)

124. logical fallicy #1: two wrongs make a right.

Reply to rhett o rick (Reply #46)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 11:05 PM

Jun 2013

Cheney broke the law and got away with, therefore so should Manning.

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If Bradley Manning is guilty, he doesn't deserve sympathy. [View all] NaturalHigh Jun 2013 OP

depends on whether the alleged crime is actually a crime. following orders is not a defense nt msongs Jun 2013 #1

Disclosure of classified information... Chan790 Jun 2013 #29

Sorta like those German criminals who tried to stop Hitler. Jackpine Radical Jun 2013 #129

Yes. Some people can't understand that there is a difference between law and morality. Zorra Jun 2013 #145

+1 idwiyo Jun 2013 #205

Whistleblowers, especially security whistleblowers have the current system working against them... cascadiance Jun 2013 #211

Releasing classified diplomatic cable is a crime. n/t pnwmom Jun 2013 #32

Riiight. blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #2

Daniel Ellsberg - got off on a technicality, american hero. Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #3

No chance. So many of us are like the five-year-old child that doesn't want to go to school. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #7

Official channels? atreides1 Jun 2013 #4

+1000 LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #11

Then he should have accepted that fact, rather than stoop to breaking the goddamn law. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #36

Your sense of morality is so admirable. /nt Marr Jun 2013 #193

There's other channels as well jeff47 Jun 2013 #68

By regulation, the Army IG must open an investigation into the allegations. Once that SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #107

A private foreign entity... Pelican Jun 2013 #151

Correct. I believe that Manning was *used* in many ways by Assange. That SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #181

And Manning could then find himself on the front lines being Tillman'nized. RC Jun 2013 #178

Pure conjecture on your part. We'll never know since he decided to release the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #179

Yeah, and? RC Jun 2013 #186

None of the documents contained any evidence of war crimes. This may be a SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #189

I have sympathy for him, but I think he is guilty OKNancy Jun 2013 #5

I don't remember the exact details... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #8

Update from this afternoon: NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #117

MLK also knew he was committing crimes, ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #6

What do you mean by harmed? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #10

In my view, locking someone in a cage against their will is harming them. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #14

So, you are opposed to ALL incarceration of criminals? brooklynite Jun 2013 #71

No, I am just being honest. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #158

"against their will"? Do you think any prisoner is "willingly" locked up? That doesn't make sense Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #78

Yes, prisoners are locked up agaisnt their will. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #106

So what is the takeaway here? Pelican Jun 2013 #152

I am not wise enough to know what people deserve. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #157

I think it is already fairly certain that he will get 20 years, JDPriestly Jun 2013 #159

It's so disgusting when people try to compare scum like Manning/Assange to MLK. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #38

I am not comparing the two, I am pointing out that being a ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #105

He was very naughty. He actually thought the people in a democracy should know what their Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #9

+1 xchrom Jun 2013 #12

Serious question: NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #16

Serious answer. Avoid wars and getting involved in other countries conflicts. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #21

And Nuremberg taught us that some laws should NOT be followed. tblue Jun 2013 #55

I have to agree with you about his pre-trial confinement. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #116

Agreed. And avoid lying us into war for personal profit. KansDem Jun 2013 #58

A lot of government agencies cannot operate without secrecy. Pragdem Jun 2013 #41

But when you lie us into war for personal profit... KansDem Jun 2013 #62

the secret is there is no secret olddots Jun 2013 #69

A serious question. Have you ever been in the military or held a security clearance of any kind? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #37

I hope no one that traitorous has any official rank of any kind. nt Pragdem Jun 2013 #42

^^^ This AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #160

He had plenty of legal options jeff47 Jun 2013 #79

but that is just it arely staircase Jun 2013 #144

+1000 RC Jun 2013 #185

Yet torturers get off free LittleBlue Jun 2013 #13

They shouldn't. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #18

If Manning is guilty - what about the Americans who murdered civilians, ran secret torture prisons.. OutNow Jun 2013 #15

I agree with almost everything in your post. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #19

Ask all the raped military women & men about "official channels". lob1 Jun 2013 #17

+1 idwiyo Jun 2013 #166

You are a good and loyal Citizen! n/t n2doc Jun 2013 #20

How sad to see such sentiments posted in a "politically liberal" blog. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #22

I spent six years in the Air Force... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #23

four years here Skittles Jun 2013 #27

No one can argue that information relating to national security doesnt need to be protected. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #28

He released the names of both foreign and military sources. Is that sensitive enough for you? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #40

And Cheney exposed dozens of clandestine operatives and he walks free. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #46

So Manning should get a pass? Based on what exactly? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #47

Would you sleep better if they hang him? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #50

He should be punished according to the UCMJ. That would not include hanging. But your over the top SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #53

Over the top??? The posse has arrived and they have a rope. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #57

Manning released the names of both foreign and military sources. Some were open others SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #95

Blah, blah, blah. Cheney is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent children rhett o rick Jun 2013 #123

logical fallacies 2 & 3, strawman and appeal to emotion arely staircase Jun 2013 #131

Nice try. Some here want the worst for Manning because they rhett o rick Jun 2013 #136

again, i agree with you on the double standard - that is a legit point arely staircase Jun 2013 #141

Let's put it this way - As long as Cheney walks free, Manning should be able to also. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #54

Is there a poll showing "99%" support for Manning, or is this just more of the usual "rhettorick"? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #83

I'd like to see that poll too. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #88

This is the problem with being an internet liberal today, you have to believe that..... Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #92

You clearly don't understand military law. (nt) SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #93

"Military Law", ah yes, the ultimate in authoritarian rule. I can see why some worship at it's rhett o rick Jun 2013 #120

What 99%? Is there a poll somewhere that shows that. (nt) SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #97

Sooner or later you will have to choose a side. And if you continue to choose the side of the rhett o rick Jun 2013 #125

That's right. Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #173

I guess during a war you can be neutral. If that's what you choose. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #174

"hating the left" Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #177

There are those here in DU city that are openly against the left. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #191

Who does this? Bobbie Jo Jun 2013 #194

Thanks for the heads up. You have completely mis-characterized my position, but SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #190

Maybe I made a mistake. Isnt your position on Manning the same as Sean Hannity? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #192

My position on Manning is the same as half the people on DU and ove half the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #195

Your post is blatant example of what R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2013 #115

My fear is that most Americans will go easily into the darkness of fascism. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #121

As long as they are kept fat, happy and entertained/anesthetized they may do exactly that. R. Daneel Olivaw Jun 2013 #128

As contemptuous as I find Bradley Manning to be... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #52

I wouldn't label him as evil either. But what he did was incredibly stupid, and criminal. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #96

Yes, and yes. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #98

please tell me that you consider Cheney as evil. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #122

No. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #126

Cheney had children tortured in front of their fathers. That's evil. nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #130

You either didn't read my post, or you didn't understand it. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #135

logical fallicy #1: two wrongs make a right. arely staircase Jun 2013 #124

The point is that there are two standards. One for the 1%, which apparently you subscribe, and rhett o rick Jun 2013 #127

cheney's guilt or innocence in no way determines manning's. arely staircase Jun 2013 #134

Do you recognize that we are at war? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #138

against whom am i at war? arely staircase Jun 2013 #142

If you dont know, then I assume you think everything is fine. The poverty level is a-ok. rhett o rick Jun 2013 #146

what i am drinking is a shitty merlot arely staircase Jun 2013 #148

The 99% cant prosecute Cheney for murdering tens of thousands, yet you support the prosecution of rhett o rick Jun 2013 #149

one farce does not justify another arely staircase Jun 2013 #150

If that rationalization makes you feel better, more power to you. Manning in prison and Cheney free rhett o rick Jun 2013 #153

Actually, it does. RC Jun 2013 #196

it means they are related but in no way helps manning's case arely staircase Jun 2013 #202

So now you're are a prosecution lawyer, are ya? RC Jun 2013 #206

no just commenting on current events arely staircase Jun 2013 #209

I spent 4 years in the Marines and I disagree. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #31

In that case disregard my question in another reply. Since you were in the Marine Corps, SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #44

Cheney exposed a hundred undercover operatives and no one cared. Now you care because a Pfc rhett o rick Jun 2013 #147

Dude AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #163

If it was just Cheney maybe I could agree. But a good share of the Ruling Elite rhett o rick Jun 2013 #175

"Cheney got away with crimes similar to Manning" Matariki Jun 2013 #212

Brainwashed maybe? They want you to believe it. n-t Logical Jun 2013 #139

20 years MI retired in 2011 here AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #161

Be careful. According to some here, you are spouting RW talking points and SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #197

There are plenty of authoritarians on the left. alarimer Jun 2013 #91

Please tell me that you dont consider Obama as "on the left". nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #132

Whether he's guilty or not, he acted out of principle. One can be sympathetic leveymg Jun 2013 #24

"His motivations are essential to whether he is a whistleblower." NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #26

The UCMJ does not determine whether he was a whistleblower. I don't think he expects leniency. leveymg Jun 2013 #61

He would have been a whistle blower if he had followed the proper protocol to report the SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #109

I disagree. Whistle blowers and proper protocol don't coexist comfortably. leveymg Jun 2013 #111

Except that these principles were only mentioned after he was arrested. jeff47 Jun 2013 #72

If it is ever proved that anyone died as the result of his releases... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #76

One can simulatenously be sympathetic and also conclude geek tragedy Jun 2013 #25

"Most likely, his name would never have been known to the public. " Scuba Jun 2013 #30

Considering the fact that most of the information... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #34

The chain of command doesn't stop at one's immediate superior officer. Scuba Jun 2013 #39

I'm aware of that. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #43

You think Rummy didn't know? Scuba Jun 2013 #49

Minor problem with that jeff47 Jun 2013 #74

+1 NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #80

"The reason we should oppose war is these acts are legal in war" loyalsister Jun 2013 #94

Whatever Manning is... ljm2002 Jun 2013 #33

When someone tells me without qualifier who does or does not deserve sympathy LanternWaste Jun 2013 #35

I think he's guilty, I have sympathy for him, I think he's a hero. Iggo Jun 2013 #45

ugh, good example of authoritarianism quinnox Jun 2013 #48

He's already plead guilty to 10 of the charges... SidDithers Jun 2013 #51

EVERYONE deserves sympathy. Th1onein Jun 2013 #56

I hope he gets a reduced sentence simply because he was very confused emotionally. randome Jun 2013 #85

Personally, I find what he has done to be pretty bad. Yes, criminal. NCTraveler Jun 2013 #59

I have the impression he was immature and thoughtless BainsBane Jun 2013 #60

I agree with you that Assange is the one most morally culpable. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #64

I suspect he isn't legally culpable for publishing the documents BainsBane Jun 2013 #67

He isn't culpable. jeff47 Jun 2013 #75

Under current federal law, he had the obligation to not publish any document that he knew might SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #110

Even if he is not a U.S. citizen and didn't publish it on an American server? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #112

"Classified" because if effed up the narrative tblue Jun 2013 #63

If Bradley Manning believes that what he did was just... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #65

And I don't understand your drive to make sure nobody sympathizes with him. bemildred Jun 2013 #66

I'm all for genuine political disagreement. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #73

Kind of like AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #165

But Manning is not trying to get away, he is not trying to avoid accountability. bemildred Jun 2013 #168

Then why do you care AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #169

I don't, I'm awake at 3:30 in the morning, expecting to get a root canal at 9:00 AM bemildred Jun 2013 #172

pv1 Manning chose not to Niceguy1 Jun 2013 #70

Because of his position, he knew the information would get nowhere, if he followed the rules. RC Jun 2013 #200

he never even tried Niceguy1 Jun 2013 #215

Manning knew that before the fact, that nothing would come of it, if he went through channels. RC Jun 2013 #216

Since he's already plead guilty to 10 of the charges, I think he may agree with you, I certainly do. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #77

I think his lawyers were hoping... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #81

Good luck with that! I think the consensus is that he won't get life, but he'll surely do 20. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #82

No, I'm pretty sure he won't get life... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #84

Ya got me. I'm not familiar with military sentencing, but NPR did a segment today with a journalist Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #86

So what procedure is in place felix_numinous Jun 2013 #87

Felix, as I understand it, something like 77,000 files were turned over by Manning. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #90

So what would you do if you witnessed Abu Graib felix_numinous Jun 2013 #99

The difference is... NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #100

Maybe if he went through felix_numinous Jun 2013 #101

Thank you likewise. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #103

Just a slight correction, it was over 700k files. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #108

Wow...even worse. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #114

"The Pentagon Papers": WinkyDink Jun 2013 #89

Sieg Heil! Just following orders sir! boomer55 Jun 2013 #102

I have no sympathy for Manning tammywammy Jun 2013 #104

Exactly. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #113

It's not that simple. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2013 #118

He disclosed 700,000 files. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #119

"Heroes don't commit crimes that they believe to be for just causes..." etc, what meaningless drivel sibelian Jun 2013 #180

Emo-wrangling? NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #219

^^^This^^^. Wish I could rec your post to infinity - n/t CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #164

many people commit crimes willingly and still deserve sympathy La Lioness Priyanka Jun 2013 #133

Sure he deserves some sympathy. But he also deserves to go to jail. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #137

Whatever else Bradley sulphurdunn Jun 2013 #140

I agree with almost everything you posted. NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #143

I am Bradley Manning - Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #154

I agree 100% for what it is worth Riftaxe Jun 2013 #155

I don't think he's innocent, or a hero bhikkhu Jun 2013 #156

What a steaming pile of unadulterated horseshit. See how all the CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #162

Do you consider a Brigadier General to be a grunt? SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #198

Oh, man, pin it all on Karpinski, why don't we? Forget about CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #201

I guess you answered my question. Thanks. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #203

He should have complained to the very people who committed the crimes. Makes sense. idwiyo Jun 2013 #167

No crimes were committed AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #171

No crimes were committed, if you don't count the Geneva Conventions CharlesInCharge Jun 2013 #182

No matter how you frame it, some here will cling to the notion that what he did was SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #187

Torture is a crime. War of agression is a crime. I would have done exactly the same thing Bradley idwiyo Jun 2013 #199

Thanks for saying that customerserviceguy Jun 2013 #170

Official channels for exposing war crimes? You mean those same official channels for reporting rape? Dash87 Jun 2013 #176

The whole "Manning is X", "Manning is Y" narrative is sleight of hand. sibelian Jun 2013 #183

My sympathy he gets, but no way does he deserve a pardon. ucrdem Jun 2013 #184

........ marmar Jun 2013 #188

Manning deserves FREEDOM, not sympathy. RoccoR5955 Jun 2013 #204

legalize Lonnie Anderson's hair H2O Man Jun 2013 #207

Marjorie Cohn: "Manning had a legal duty to reveal the commission of war crimes.... Trillo Jun 2013 #208

He could have done that by informing the Army IG or Congress as required by regulation. SlimJimmy Jun 2013 #214

Those 'official channels' were the ones committing the crimes Matariki Jun 2013 #210

Commit a crime for exposing crimes. What could be wrong with that? L0oniX Jun 2013 #213

That's your opinion. 99Forever Jun 2013 #217

Chain of command.. official channels.. RedCappedBandit Jun 2013 #218