General Discussion

hunter

(40,314 posts)

70. All democracies are a "hot mess."

Tue Dec 13, 2022, 09:43 AM

Dec 2022

The alternatives are frequently worse.

You know, of course, that senators weren't popularly elected until the seventeenth amendment which was ratified in 1913. Before that they were selected by state legislators, supposedly on the basis of these senators being superior men... of some sort.

As the Constitution was being debated the "pastoral" slave states really did see the writing on the wall that they would soon be overtaken in population and economic power by the increasingly abolitionist industrial and mercantile states.

In modern times it becomes clear that a sluggish but honest bureaucracy is a better ballast against the excesses of populism than a senate. Career civil servants and specialists counterbalance populism. That's why the fascists want to sweep these bureaucracies away and run government "like a business."

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California has 39 million people and two senators. Wyoming has a few dozen people and two senators. [View all] Cyrano Dec 2022 OP

The House of Representatives is where you find politicians representing the people. jimfields33 Dec 2022 #1

Not perfect at all with the filibuster rule in the Senate. brush Dec 2022 #7

And more populous states are Bettie Dec 2022 #27

But not proportionally dpibel Dec 2022 #31

Good point - it may have meant something treestar Dec 2022 #34

The Senate was originally set up to represent the states interests DetroitLegalBeagle Dec 2022 #46

I ask again dpibel Dec 2022 #56

The same way Country's are represented in international organizations like the UN Zeitghost Dec 2022 #59

But states are not countries dpibel Dec 2022 #60

Sorry Zeitghost Dec 2022 #71

The senate is undemocratic. Mosby Dec 2022 #74

it would be closer to "perfect" if they lifted the cap on the number of house members. Orangepeel Dec 2022 #52

So you support a massively undemocratic institution? Voltaire2 Dec 2022 #80

Each state is treated equal in the senate whether you have one person or a billion. jimfields33 Dec 2022 #90

but WY has 1.27 million cattle (basically 2 cows/person) hlthe2b Dec 2022 #2

moo Cyrano Dec 2022 #17

It's, Specifically, Designed That Way To Avoid A "Tyranny of the Majority". ruet Dec 2022 #3

Tyranny of the majority? What kind of disinformation phrase is that? brush Dec 2022 #9

If a majority said blacks and Jews should be gassed, that would... Lucky Luciano Dec 2022 #13

The history of the country shows that that sentiment... brush Dec 2022 #19

But that doesn't HAVE to be the case just because it might be at the moment. In our own ... Whiskeytide Dec 2022 #37

That's what the bill of rights treestar Dec 2022 #36

Mob rule is dangerous and does need to be checked. Lucky Luciano Dec 2022 #38

I take it you have not studied the philosophy of liberalism and the founding principles of Just A Box Of Rain Dec 2022 #14

It's historic term all right, but it's misinformation bullshit. brush Dec 2022 #22

You are deeply misguided on this point. Just A Box Of Rain Dec 2022 #23

Cite an example in American history. No bs imagined scenarios... brush Dec 2022 #24

You should do your own homework, however I'd suggest reading Federalist 10 (and if you Just A Box Of Rain Dec 2022 #28

Is it an example of actual tyranny of the majority in Congress? brush Dec 2022 #30

I should know better Just A Box Of Rain Dec 2022 #32

Is it? brush Dec 2022 #33

You tried dumbcat Dec 2022 #48

And probably won't Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #95

Ok. I'll jump in. For almost 100 years a ... Whiskeytide Dec 2022 #49

And in no case did the Senate protect the minority dpibel Dec 2022 #57

Yeah... Ummmm... No. ruet Dec 2022 #16

See post 23. brush Dec 2022 #25

agreed, this is how the constitution functions treestar Dec 2022 #35

The Supreme Court found slavery to be perfectly constitutional, and that ... Whiskeytide Dec 2022 #50

Nothing is perfect treestar Dec 2022 #51

But we don't actually have "minority ... Whiskeytide Dec 2022 #55

When did a majority elect Trump? dpibel Dec 2022 #58

Yes. You're right. I used a bad example. Perhaps a better one ... Whiskeytide Dec 2022 #65

Interesting question! dpibel Dec 2022 #67

A majority of voters didn't vote for that...thing Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #94

The United States is not a democracy, it is a Constitutional Democratic Republic. Dysfunctional Dec 2022 #72

Newsflash: A republic is a representative DEMOCRACY. brush Dec 2022 #73

It was explicitly designed that way to appease slave states... hunter Dec 2022 #18

Our bicameral system was not there to appease slave states. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2022 #29

Oh, please. Our Senate was modeled after the House of Lords... hunter Dec 2022 #62

Are you aware sarisataka Dec 2022 #63

Virginia had the largest population of the 13 colonies. hunter Dec 2022 #66

Right, so having a house of Congress based on state representation hurt the slave states. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2022 #77

Ironically those "Lords" and sarisataka Dec 2022 #85

I was thinking people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. hunter Dec 2022 #91

That's an interesting theory. It has no basis in the actual deliberation of the country founding, Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2022 #69

All democracies are a "hot mess." hunter Dec 2022 #70

The Senate was that way to put a balance between state and national governments. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2022 #76

You seem to think I respect the "founding fathers." I don't. hunter Dec 2022 #78

well no it was specifically designed to ensure that the slave states would Voltaire2 Dec 2022 #81

That makes precisely zero sense. Imperialism Inc. Dec 2022 #87

The Senate should go the way of the House of Lords in the UK CloudWatcher Dec 2022 #4

That is fairly obvious Johonny Dec 2022 #82

YES!!! And sooner than later!!! calimary Dec 2022 #5

And there's not a damn thing that can ever be done about it Polybius Dec 2022 #6

California is one state and has 2 senators sarisataka Dec 2022 #8

Luckily (for now), both Dems and Reps have their own share of small states. BlueCheeseAgain Dec 2022 #10

Maine likes Susan Collins because she's always "concerned." Cyrano Dec 2022 #21

In terms of Senators & the 20 smallest States, the Rethugs have 23 out of 40 possible, we have 17 Celerity Dec 2022 #26

Rhode Island should be bold. jimfields33 Dec 2022 #39

Fixed Celerity Dec 2022 #40

Thanks. You did a great job pointing out the inequity of the senate. jimfields33 Dec 2022 #41

also it's depressing that soon 70% of the seats will be controlled by only 30% of the population Celerity Dec 2022 #43

Inequity of the senate intelpug Dec 2022 #68

Why is Vermont never mentioned in these discussions? Kaleva Dec 2022 #11

And the solution is....51 national senators. GreenWave Dec 2022 #12

Puerto Rico is not at all guaranteed to yield 2 Dem Senators. Celerity Dec 2022 #15

those 4 states should go back to being 1 state. mopinko Dec 2022 #20

Another solution would be for blue cities or counties Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #96

They also only have one Congressional representative. Initech Dec 2022 #42

The makeup of the Senate was a check on the power of the more populous state ripcord Dec 2022 #44

Yep. Exactly as intended when Cyrano Dec 2022 #45

What power would Californians have treestar Dec 2022 #53

More people in CA voted for TFG then in many smaller states combined Kaleva Dec 2022 #83

With a population of almost 40 million, of course the Cyrano Dec 2022 #88

And they probably feel like they don't get representation in the Senate Kaleva Dec 2022 #89

Yes indeed. Especially the Electoral College treestar Dec 2022 #92

Technically speaking KentuckyWoman Dec 2022 #47

Shall we talk about the Dakota Territories? gldstwmn Dec 2022 #54

A few dozen????? USALiberal Dec 2022 #61

States like CA are stuck in a "constitutional straightjacket". roamer65 Dec 2022 #64

Senate should be dissolved, along with the electoral college. Mosby Dec 2022 #75

538,000. Why distort the real numbers when they are truly horrible? Voltaire2 Dec 2022 #79

We could probably do away with states all together Kaleva Dec 2022 #84

Good luck getting buy in on that here. Imperialism Inc. Dec 2022 #86

"wyoming has a few dozen people..." orleans Dec 2022 #93