The Way Forward
Related: About this forumIs it time for Antifa to organize into a formal political party?
...or will the Democratic Party become focused enough to do what must be done?
I realize this is a contentious question, but we now know that we are facing the second rise of the nazi party, and we need to face that reality head-on.
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Mike 03
(18,007 posts)The reason I wouldn't want this to happen now is that it gives Trump another target that he can use and abuse in so many different ways. Suddenly every enemy that doesn't fit neatly into one of the already-decided list of Out Groups will be dismissed as Antifa. Any protest, march, or anti-Trump event that gets out of hand will be the work of Antifa. He could even use it as justification to declare emergencies, impose martial law.
Maybe it's too early to say this, but I feel like the Democratic party is finding its footing. The opposition may not be as strident as some of us would like, but it seems to be taking shape. I'm also seeing increasingly better ideas for resistance.
It just takes some time to adjust and figure out what will work vs what sounds like a great idea in a tweet but in reality just won't fly or is totally ineffective.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)And you raise a good point about giving trump a scapegoat for everything, but I believe he will do that anyway somehow, and he has shown he doesn't need any kind of justification to do what he will, he'll just make up something else anyway.
I also don't believe we should continue with the failed method of trying to second guess what he will do just to formulate what we should do. I believe we need to stop being reactive and defensive to his actions, and become pro-active ourselves.
We are on the very edge of a seriously dangerous situation and I think we should be preparing for that now.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Why? We lost a number of races due to people voting for fringe parties?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...who is willing to focus on fighting against the fascist threat our Democracy faces.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Your proposal to add yet another third party would guarantee that the GOP will win more races. Again, Hillary and Kamala both lost due to third party votes. We lost a number of senate seats due to third party votes.
Why do you want the GOP to win more races?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...people who are not registered Democrats vote for Democratic tickets all the time.
If the collaborative intent is to defeat the nazis, we would GAIN votes for the strongest anti-fascist candidates.
Voltaire2
(15,133 posts)Antifa is explicitly not a political party.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...but perhaps we do need an explicitly anti-fascist political party to oppose the one most important political challenge of these times, fascism?
Voltaire2
(15,133 posts)The idiotic political system in our country makes it virtually impossible for a third party to have anything other than a spoiler role, and even that is very difficult.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Do we have the.... seriousness that's now needed in us?
Voltaire2
(15,133 posts)Participate at the local level and be vocal about opposing fascism.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)This is not business as usual.
CrispyQ
(38,946 posts)that have the infrastructure to put someone in the White House. It's why Sanders switched to a dem when he ran in 2016 cuz no other party comes close to what the dems & repubs have. Sadly, it's not just the presidency, it's most congressional seats, too, that need the kind of money & organization the two parties have. Our electoral process has become a for-profit charade to make us proles think we have a say in how things are run. Hard not to channel Zappa in times like these.
“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” -Frank Zappa
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...and obviously I'm hoping to put a Democrat back in the White House AND in every possible Congressional seat, as well as on the Supreme Court.
However, at this moment in time we are trying to fight down fascism in America, and I believe we need to support and build-up the most focused anti-fascist organization we have.
CrispyQ
(38,946 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)CrispyQ
(38,946 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...there is only the republican's false claims against them, which only rightwingers (or very weak Democrats) want to believe.
CrispyQ
(38,946 posts)The right has more successfully defined the democratic party than the democratic party itself has, & the dems are way more organized & better financed than antifa, so good luck rebranding antifa into anything other than a radical leftist org.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...I have no interest in whatever the rightwing has branded anyone.
ZRB
(304 posts)Advocating for a left wing political party to form and undercut the Democratic party even further! The Green Party damage not enough for you? I just can't even with this...
DeepWinter
(775 posts)has a Big Tent. More than a few times, even here on DU, it's been argued "too big". It's becoming very hard to get people on the same page, even close to the same page.
I would argue Antifa is the Anarchy Party. Maybe they have like goals, but they have very different methods. Far less articulate. Cutting them loose would do no harm. As well as like minded and mannered groups.
ZRB
(304 posts)We still don't need any additional leftist parties forming to attempt to syphon the far left further away from our party, as the OP seems to want.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...well, enough said.
ZRB
(304 posts)How are progressive goals achieved by pulling voters away from the party?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts).... one way to increase the chances of causing the destruction of the current nazi party, which would of course be beneficial to progressive goals and the Democratic Party.
ZRB
(304 posts)Would help entrench the fascists. Not good.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Good.
ZRB
(304 posts)When is the last time a fringe third party helped anyone BUT the fascists?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)ZRB
(304 posts)Comparing them to the current day Antifa is a massive insult to genuine heroes. And I thought we were discussing US Politics. Find me a time when a fringe third party has ever helped US Democrats, and don't say Ross Perot; he wasn't fringe.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)ZRB
(304 posts)Democrats are hurt by fringe third parties, especially at the presidential level, but also in a reputational sense. Encouraging yet another third party does nothing to help the only viable progressive party. You want to build a third party so much, go undercover and build a right wing one to syphon off the most gullible Republicans. That might actually achieve something.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...to the current nazi administration is our Democracy's best bet.
ZRB
(304 posts)Strong opposition that results in a narrow Republican victory in 2028 sounds just great. Amazing plan.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...but on a serious note, I DO believe that a strong focus on defeating the fascism that the "republican" party is now living for, is the plan we need to protect our Democracy.
ZRB
(304 posts)I just think it needs to be done within the party. If this were a parliamentary system, or ranked choice voting, you'd have a much stronger point about building smaller opposition parties.
EdmondDantes_
(241 posts)What won the war was a shit load of dead Russians and then a two front war.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....that people opposed to fascism (Anti-fascists) did indeed win WW2.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Do you want the GOP to keep winning key senate races due to third party voters? The GOP picked up a number of Senate seats due to third parties. Your suggestion would guarantee that the GOP could continue to win these races
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
Elessar Zappa
(16,292 posts)I’m a Democrat.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
WarGamer
(16,159 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)WarGamer
(16,159 posts)ANTIFA is short for Antifaschistische Aktion, quite literally a front group for the Soviet Communist Party in Germany in 1932...
Recognize the flag?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Since they are not a front group for a communist party (or any party) here in America, they stand alone as Antifa.
GreenWave
(9,990 posts)It is a broad coalition of freedom lovers and fighters the world over.
Klarkashton
(2,785 posts)Klarkashton
(2,785 posts)WarGamer
(16,159 posts)Klarkashton
(2,785 posts)So again, sorry but no.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
mcar
(43,839 posts)Do they have a website? Is it an organized group that actually stands for something?
How will they run people for elected office? What is their platform? Their funding?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)"Is it time for Antifa to organize into a formal political party?"
cadoman
(1,055 posts)It's completely flat.
I think Democrats could embrace ANTIFA simply by stating that we are anti-fascist as part of campaign rhetoric and perhaps a plank of the party.
If MAGA is fascist, it makes sense that we'd be anti-that, right? Simply by owning the term we make MAGA have to decide whether they want to be pro-fascism or part of ANTIFA with us. 
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)orangecrush
(22,902 posts)
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Baron2024
(976 posts)The problem with Antifa is that they are mostly very radical anti-capitalist and that will put off a lot of people. You can be anti-fascist and not against the private sector. All antifa are anti-fascists. Not all anti-fascists are antifa. So I think that they are a little too radical for mainstream politics. But we all should certainly be anti-fascist. Just not antifa. That is my two cents. Your views may differ.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Do you realize what we are up against?
We are up against full-blown nazis.
I don't believe we can be "too radical" in opposition to that.
Baron2024
(976 posts)If Antifa wants to join us in our fight to defeat the MAGA Fascists, great. I am just not an anti-capitalist like most of them and do not think they would function well in a mainstream political party. Just my two cents. Your views may differ. I am anti-fascist, just not antifa. If they want to ally with us, that would be fine.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...my question is whether it's time for the vast majority of Democrats to become hardcore Anti-fascists.
Baron2024
(976 posts)I have been a hard core anti-fascist my entire life. My Uncles fought in World War Two. I almost went into ROTC in College but I had a health condition that prevented me. I think that all real Americans must be anti-fascist to some degree. And if someone is a fascist, then by definition they can not be a real American. We have a 250 year history of fighting Tyranny in this country. We defeated the British in the 18th Century. We defeated the Confederates in the 19th Century. We defeated the Nazis in the 20th Century. I have hope and faith that we will defeat the MAGA Fascists in the 21st Century. Some people may be a little late to the party, but if someone wants to become a "hardcore anti-fascist" I would welcome them to the camp.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....now, we need a strong opposition to the nazis in power, so, do you think it's time for Antifa to become a formal political party?
The Madcap
(852 posts)Though I would think most agree that we should be anti-Fascist, I believe the image of Antifa is young thugs dressed in black burning Portland. That is an exaggeration, but that seems to be the image. I don't think it would be beneficial to keep that image going.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...because it was an image created by magats, and if that image scares them, all the better.
The Madcap
(852 posts)But unfortunately, that's one that many people have. It would be difficult to overcome.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....are not on the side of Democracy or we wouldn't be in this position in the first place.
TommyT139
(947 posts)Yet also not equal to Antifa.
You are thinking of the Black Bloc, which is more of a set of protest tactics than a group. While the tactics can include a level of violence, they are mostly aimed at reducing the ability for individuals to be identified. So protesters will wear all black, including masks and hats, with goggles in case of tear gas from police.
Other tactics might include operational security -- leaving phones at home (to keep police and -- these days, opponents -- from picking up communications, or using Stingray technology to get info on whose cell phones are in the area. Some group members may hang back, for safety, documenting, calling lawyers, etc.
Many of the chino Nazis use similar ideas -- for instance, dressing identically helps anonymity and also gives the impression that an organization is larger than it is -- except wearing all red or chinos and white masks has more fashy a flavor if you ask me. "Fashy" as in fascist -- not fashionable.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...the image of them using black box tactics is false.
TommyT139
(947 posts)And I was referring to the poster who called that a false image. It's not.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)AkFemDem
(2,375 posts)Think you're fooling yourself if you think most democrats want to be associated with them.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...but we must try to get ALL Democrats to stand strongly and agressively against the fascism we're facing.
Either we defeat them or we lose our Democracy.
LuvLoogie
(7,720 posts)AOC is Antifa in the political form. Jasmine Crocket is Antifa in the polital form. Bernie Sanders is Antifa in the political form.
Antifa is a form of organized street protest. Moving into electoral politics needs a basic infrastructure of people, time, and policy---and persuasion.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)"Is it time for Antifa to organize into a formal political party?"
LuvLoogie
(7,720 posts)Antifa has to decide if it is going to promote already existing infrastructure. I can see Antifa transitioning to a get-out-the-vote ground/social media operation. But we have to start using social media more intelligently and not look down our noses at it's denizens.
Moving people to act is important and we have to leverage the power of social media. Antifa, as a movement shows up always as a counter protest or as a human shield to progressive protest actions. It engages in skirmishes, and transitioning into long haul electoral vision is a different animal.
I would say that most of your Antifa street presence is made up of those motivated by the adrenalin of conflict. Left leaning politics is its juice. I am skeptical that Antifa is interested in long term goals. They are in-the-moment, in-your-face opposition to right-wing street presence. That's it.
Any number of the individuals might mature and get into electoral politics, or focus on a career. Some might already have a career and family and do it for the thrill. They target fascist messaging in the public arena, physically. I can't see any kind of transition as a party.
We'll see what rises out of the ashes of our democracy.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...the Anti-fascist ideology is now very much needed, and extremely relevant.
LeftInTX
(32,050 posts)This is what they do:
Direct action
Community organizing
Mutual aid
Harassment
Digital activism
Doxing
Picketing
Political violence
Protest marching
If you want a Political Party that is into protest it's the Party of Socialism and Liberation
If Antifa votes, it probably who they vote for. PSL have their own candidates. They hate the Democratic Party.
I think Antifa likely hates the party too. Antifa are against any military. PSL wants to abandon the military.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation
Some people just want to be "anti-system"
On the morning of Jan 20th they were carrying a Free Palestine banner and all wearing keffiyehs, by afternoon they ditched the keffiyehs for sarapes to immigration rights. That's how they work. Very quick. No real infrastructure. They literally shut city council meetings down numerous times. That's why I can't see Antifa as a political party. They aren't into decorum or that kind of stuff. They even harass congressman Joaquin Castro. They consider Castro to be right wing. They accuse Mayor Ron Nirenberg and Joaquin Castro of being part of the military industrial complex.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....we need a party that is "into" protest.
I think right now we need a party with a core value (and dare I say passion) of putting down fascism and protecting Democracy.
LeftInTX
(32,050 posts)Antifa is primarily a direct action and protest movement.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...hence the name.
What you have "heard" is fascist psy-op.
LeftInTX
(32,050 posts)listening to fascist psy-op? OK...I get it. Anything negative about antifa is fascist?
And to Antifa everything, just like you said.
OKay...
Well, good luck getting them organized!
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
Brenda
(1,428 posts)not Antifa.
Klarkashton
(2,785 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Klarkashton
(2,785 posts)Is doesn't conform to political party structure.
I don't know what else to tell you about this.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
OAITW r.2.0
(29,265 posts)Crazy, but IKE was the greatest Democrat elected Republican President I can remember.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...getting some pushback on the idea of building up those of us who represent our more blatantly anti-fascist values.
OAITW r.2.0
(29,265 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....I think it's currently the only topic that matters, the only position we should be taking. the only thing worth saying right now.
TommyT139
(947 posts)How about being antifascist without calling such a group "Antifa"? That word already has decades of history, and many different connotations depending on a particular context and time period.
More importantly for this thread, trying to make a group and then calling it Antifa just gives the magats what they've wanted for years now. (Imagine some civil servants stepping up and claiming to be the Deep State -- rethugs would be thrilled.) they would love a group to blame, especially for January 6th.
Indeed, messages went around in some radical channels telling anti fascist folks to not show up in DC. A lack of anti-insurrectionists likely helped undermine Trump's wish for an excuse to declare martial law.
It also places anyone in that group immediately into a domestic terrorist category, that comes with extremely harsh penalties in some states. Just Google "Cop City" in Georgia, for an example of just how laws can be twisted against peaceful protesters whom the state labels domestic terrorists. Even the people who simply contributed to bail funds are being charged as if they had sent gun money to Isis.
(As a side note, you do remember that everything posted on this board is public and comes up on a Google search, right? Does this give no one else pause?)
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...that the current fascist administration will be using everything to defeat any opposition.
I don't see how that should stop us from using the most effective opposition.
And I believe our most effective opposition would be to focus on defeating their fascism.
TommyT139
(947 posts)I don't think that dressing up as Antifa is that path.
Honestly, I don't think that street protests are that path either, at this point. Even in a blue state, authorities allow neo-nazis latitude that peaceful protesters don't get.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...which is why I never suggested dressing up as anything or doing street protests.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...to become ...
"The Democracy Party".
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)
Mosby
(18,005 posts)Who could have predicted this turn of events?
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)... I even thunk up up a cool name ..."
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...a stronger response to the fascism that is setting in to our Democracy.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...for ways to strengthen the Left against the fascists that are now in control, isn't it?
lapucelle
(19,689 posts) Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...but thank you for your input.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)into a weird hybrid antifa-*democtratic* "Democracy Party" does not fall within the parameters of the discussion.
Furthermore, a weird third antifa party is not the way forward for the Democratic Party, and if the assertion is that the way forward for the *left* is for Democrats to leave the Democratic Party and form a weird third party with antifa called the "Democracy Party", then that narrative is better peddled somewhere not named Democratic Underground.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...is a good strategy.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)Should Democrats break away from the Democratic Party and start a third party with antifa called the Democracy Party"?
Sorry, "Quick! Look over here!" doesn't work on me.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)
===================
When the third party bullshit couldn't be defended, you made up some new stuff about an apocryphal call to "isolate Democratic candidates from outside votes" and announced that you don't agree with an idea that YOU brought up and that NO ONE BUT YOU appears to be discussing.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Thank you for your input.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)but thanks for playing.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)The formation of a third party is a way to guarantee that the GOP will win future elections. Why do you want Democrats and the Democratic Party to lose elections?
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...that a cooperative effort between 2 pro-Democracy parties to defeat a fascist a 3rd fascist party would not turnout the needed votes?
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)How in the real world would another fringe left wing third party which would only take votes from democratic candidates help defeat the GOP and trump? Both Hillary and Kamala lost key states due to third party voters. The PA senate seat was flipped due to third party voters.
Again, why do you want to form a left wing fringe party to help the GOP win future elections? The American system of government is NOT a parliamentary system and here third parties only help GOP candidates. A vote for a third party candidate is a vote against the Democratic candidate in the real world. You have failed to explain how your amusing but sad plan will help advance the goals of the Democratic Party
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* anyone would suggest and promote or advocate the insanity that is "third party voting".
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)I suggested strengthening an organization that fights fascism.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Indeed. Plausible deniability is important when someone ventures out onto thin ice like that. I can assure you that the meaning was clear.
>> Is it time for Antifa to organize into a formal political party?
I can assure you that this statement isn't as ambiguous or benign as you're trying to convince me it is. Any "formal political party" doesn't exist simply to exist. I'm not an idiot, thank you very much. A new party to oppose the GOP will draw votes from the Democrats and ultimately benefit the Republicans.
>> I suggested strengthening an organization that fights fascism.
No you didn't. You suggested that it's time for "Antifa to organize into a formal political party" ... it's as plain as day. Crystal clear. No two ways about it.
I repeat: A new party to oppose the GOP will draw votes from the Democrats and ultimately benefit the Republicans.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Did you notice the only 2 third party senatoes voted with Dems against hegseth? (As they usuaully do).
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* use convoluted pretzel "logic" or provide irrelevant info (especially when trying to justify advocating for a third party to siphon-off votes from the Democrats) it tells me that they know the weakness of their arguments, and that they are skating on very thin ice.
>> 156. Are you?
Yes.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...would weaken our efforts toward that goal, I believe it would strengthen our efforts toward that goal.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Please refer to post 168 to consolidate this exchange. I'm not going to waste time repeating my self in two forks of this absurd exchange.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1324&pid=1075
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...my posts have focused purely on encouraging and empowering anti-fascist efforts, and I will continue to encourage discussion on how that might be accomplished.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Whatever you "think" you're doing... you're not actually doing. This thread is an embarrassing trainwreck of anti-Democratic party rhetoric and smears. Advocating for a competing "formal party" to supposedly "fight fascism" is pure fantasy.
I and others have called it out for what it is. We do not support third-parties. I strongly encourage you to self-delete.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...throughout this entire thread.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)This will only serve ONE purpose... and it will siphon votes that would otherwise go to Democrats. It will kneecap and harm the Democratic party and this will benefit the Republicans.
>> 177. I have been clear and consistent with my statements...
Crystal clear. I see exactly what this thread is about. Please self-delete.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...my only statements have been about supporting groups (yes, even third parties) in a collaborative effort to fight the fascism that our Democracy faces.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* then that most certainly advocating support for a THIRD PARTY and, indeed you are NOT supporting Democrats!
These half-hearted, awkward and sloppy denials reveal the weakness in the arguments being made.
Pretending that you didn't say something when everyone (including myself) can easily see what you said serves no useful purpose.
This is not "Antifa Underground". We are not here to advocate for the creation of third parties that will compete with Democrats. We are here to support and strengthen our own party.
I strongly encourage you to self-delete this thread. It's an abomination that directly contradicts the mission of this website.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Antifa will not co-opt the Democratic party. Anyone who wants to help Antifa organize into a formal political party is someone who WANTS to sabotage Democrats and who wants to siphon votes from Democrats.
We don't allow anyone to advocate for helping and strengthening the Green Party, do we? Gee... I wonder why not.
This is the same thing. We have a defacto two-party system. Third parties are not allies. They HARM DEMOCRATS.
At this point, your best option is to self-delete.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)There was no "caucusing with the Democrats" in their efforts to siphon votes and make it easier for the GOP to win in close states. Think. Harder. Think. Better. Think. Intelligently. Think. Rationally. Leave the fantasy and emotions at the door.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)In the real world this proposal will only help trump and his fellow fascists
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)Alternately, Democrats could break away from the Democratic Party to form a third party with antifa called The Democracy Party. It would be a "blend".
"But hey, just spitballin' here..."
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)to form a new party to replace the Democratic Party sounds like a harebrained scheme.
In addition, it relies on the unreasonable assumption that the majority of current Democrats would go along with the plan.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...recognize the danger our Democracy is in and are willing to work with groups outside of our party to save it.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)with the fabulist notion of “abandoning the Democratic Party to start an new party with antifa”.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...people don't continue to attempt to misinterpret my statements.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)when confronted with them.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts) Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)Your words are clear as day.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* because the US has a de-facto two-party system. Third parties never win national elections. --- I know that's why Jill Stein ran. Supported and funded by both the GOP and Russia. It was a wild success for them.
I wonder why it is that the "third party" option is being pushed so heavily now. It's weird, isn't it?
I know that these types of things are always couched with "just asking questions" and "we're all just spit-balling and brainstorming here" but... seriously... COME ON!!
I'm not fooled. I just want to know what's going on and why anyone would advocate for something that obviously weakens the Democratic party and Democratic candidates (and then BENEFITS the GOP and Russia).
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)As someone who lives in the real world, and as someone who's not trying to sabotage and kneecap Democrats, and as someone who sees no value in gaslighting or other acts of treachery and betrayal against the Democrats... I strongly suggest that people should be loyal to the Democratic party and work to support and strengthen it, rather than creating yet another opposition party that weakens the Democratic vote and benefits the Republicans. Such talk and such action is very dangerous.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...but the only 2 third party senators voted with Dems against hegseth, as they usually do.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* use convoluted pretzel "logic" or provide irrelevant info (especially when trying to justify advocating for a third party to siphon-off votes from the Democrats) it tells me that they know the weakness of their arguments, and that they are skating on very thin ice.
>> 158. I don't know if you noticed...
I "notice" much more than many people realize.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...our position against the nazis by joining forces with other anti-fascist organizations.
I don't think that's a weak argument.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)You didn't ask if it was time for "Antifa" to join the Democrats. You also didn't ask whether we should "join forces". Instead, you proposed and advocated for a third party that will compete with the Democratic party and that will siphon votes from the Democratic party. All this, while at the same time denigrating, shitting on, and smearing Democrats by calling us weak and incompetent and unfocused.
Seriously, these types of tantrums do not help anyone (EXCEPT for the Republicans.)
>> I don't think that's a weak argument.
Obviously not. It's an emotional one that's not very well considered. But as an adult who lives in the real world, I can assure you that it's a very bad idea.
Try again. Think harder.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...encourage empowering the fight against fascism, and nothing else.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)This is a post advocating for this violent group to become a "formal political party" that will siphon off votes from the Democratic party.
>> ...and nothing else.
Bullshit. I can see what you said. Plain as day. --- This backpedaling and trying to reframe a losing argument serves no purpose. Pretending that you meant something OTHER than what you CLEARLY wrote is absurd.
Cut your losses on this notion of sabotaging and kneecapping the Democratic party. I urge you to self-delete the OP and move on.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...to "siphon off votes from the Democratic Party".
Please do not deliberately misinterpret my words.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)If you're advocating for third parties, then indeed you ARE advocating to siphon-off votes from Democrats. There are no two ways about it.
This is a fact. Denying obvious facts just makes this thread more of a trainwreck than it already is. I encourage you to self-delete.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...in fact, in numerous posts, I spoke about "collaboration".
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* it will siphon off votes for Democrats. You don't have to use the word "competing" for everyone to know EXACTLY what you're advocating for. There is no plausible deniability here. What you said is clear. It's dangerous. It only serves to sabotage the Democratic party. Please self-delete.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...are not necessarily competitors of other parties.
You might be interested to learn of how the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL) , or even the Independent Party, works with Democrats, and perhaps you've heard about how closely aligned the libertarian party is to republicans.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Third parties do not win national elections. We are not here to advocate for kneecapping and sabotaging the Democratic party by promoting third parties.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...third party membership does not mandate voting only for that party's candidates, and that many third party members do choose to vote for candidates outside of their party that have the best chance of representing shared goals.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* and I'm not fooled by or enthralled by those types of ridiculous fairy tales and other fantasies. What you're describing does not exist or happen in the real world in numbers large enough to benefit the Democrats. But what does happen, instead, is what we saw in 2016 and 2024.
Please stop advocating for third parties. This site is for Democrats.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...with voters who are against fascism.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)That's not how elections work. What you're promoting hurts the Democratic party. If voters turn out for the Antifa candidate, then they aren't voting for the Democrat. We know for a fact that the Antifa candidate will not win. Only the Democrat OR the Republican will win. Any vote that does not benefit the Democrat has the effect of helping the Republican. We've seen this repeatedly.
Stop advocating for third parties. This is Democratic Underground... not Antifa Underground.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)... and grow and strengthen the Democratic party, rather than advocating for Antifa to "organize into a formal political party."
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...is the whole point of this OP.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)You said so, right in the subject line. It's there for the entire world to see. And that only serves the purpose of undermining, kneecapping, sabotaging the Democratic party and siphoning-off votes for Democrats.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...with an obvious intent of sparking discussion on the topic.
Unfortunately, the thread has been hi-jacked instead with false accusations against me personally.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 27, 2025, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)
* any sort of plausible deniability. Sorry. I'm not buying it (and I can see by the replies in this thread that I'm not the only one who's NOT buying it.)
You've had ample opportunity to self-delete or even to edit and clarify your OP, but you didn't. Instead, we witnessed doubling-down, tripling-down, quadrupling-down... redefining what a party does, and pretending that third parties "caucus" with Democrats in national elections.
Nobody is attacking you personally. But the OP and most of this thread is an assault on common sense and on our Democratic party.
This is not Antifa Underground. This is Democratic Underground and we are here to strengthen and grow the Democratic party. We do not look for ways to weaken the Democratic party, nor do we advocate or promote third party bullshit that siphons off votes from Democratic candidates.
Please self-delete this thread. It's a cesspool of misinformation.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)I admit, I'm sure it's difficult for many people to not gawk and "rubberneck" at this trainwreck of a thread and marvel at how it has become an overflowing cesspool of misinformation and false statements.
I think that the majority of people who come to Democratic Underground are loyal Democrats who are smart enough to see what is going on in this thread and they will reject any effort to promote third-parties as some sort of imaginary fantasy allies who will "caucus" with Democrats. The fantasies promoted in this thread are just beyond the pale.
We often characterize politics as a "battlefield" and on a real battlefield countries form alliances to defeat a common enemy. HOWEVER, politics and elections do not work that way. It's foolish and naive to assume that different parties can form alliances in the same way that countries form alliances to defeat a common enemy. In the real world of responsible adults, such a notion would be a deadly and costly mistake.
I can see that you're heavily and emotionally invested in this thread... but you really need to let it go. Support Democrats and ONLY Democrats. Sabotage Republicans, not Democrats.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)And I support ALL efforts to fight against the fascism that now threatens our Dmocracy.
I hope you will join me.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Advocating for third parties only serves to WEAKEN the Democratic party and siphon-off votes.
Advocating for third parties only serves to BENEFIT the GOP and Trump.
Advocating for third parties only serves to SUPPORT fascism.
I hope YOU will "think again" and realize that advocating for third parties is a very dangerous approach.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Advocating for mutual support and collaboration between anti-fascist and pro-Democracy organizations of any kind is a positive and hopeful approach.
(As I said in this thread many times.)
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Repeating the lie that third parties benefit Democrats does not make it true.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)I personally believe that the more open and accepting of pro-Democratic, anti-fascist people we are, the more they will vote with us.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Advocating for, and supporting third parties is foolish.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...spreading the idea that Democratic party is really the only way for Pro-Democratic, Anti-fascist voters to vote, no matter what party they belong to.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* would remove the last thin veil of "plausible denial" for supporting and advocating for a third party. By their playing word games and pretending to not understand the question the charade continues. By ignoring facts and reality, their romp in the cesspool of lies and deception continue. Not only does that diminish the Democratic party, but it diminishes the stature and integrity of this website too. For anyone to be allowed or encouraged to promote third party challenges to Democrats on this site (of all sites) is beyond my ability to comprehend. It's the equivalent of shouting "GENOCIDE JOE" and suppressing the vote, it amplifies the lies and smears that are continually being hurled at Democrats. This is Nina Turner level shit-throwing and sabotaging. It's Susan Sarandon level revenge-motivated kneecapping. It's Michael Moore level arrogance to believe that third party challengers do not siphon votes from Democrats. Pretending that third parties do not harm Democrats in close elections is willful ignorance. --- Thanks for listening. 
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)There are 300+ posts on this thread and yet this thread only has 15 likes (this may be a record for a low number of likes for this type of thread). This OP is NOT being taken seriously. I have enjoyed watching you run away and be unable to explain your proposal in the real world. It would be helpful if you would respond to basic questions about this new "formal political party" if you want this to be taken seriously
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I am both a lawyer and a former college and high school debater. I live in the real world and deal with real world issues and have been involved in Democratic Party issues for a very long time in the real world. You really need to answer the questions raised if you want people to be able to respond to your "question" about this proposed new "formal political party".
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Littlered
(105 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)JohnSJ
(97,259 posts)same tactics and effectively become just like the rethugs is complete garbage.
The way you resist is through boycotts, protests, etc.
Stop patronizing Facebook, Twitter(X), Amazon, Tesla, and other supporters of the sociopath. That is the only thing these billionaires will understand when their revenue drops.
Follow the example of the Civil Rights movement in the fifties and sixties, and don't expect immediate results, it could take years.
That is how your fight these f**kers.
Trying to fight them violently is not the answer, and would be futile. You want to win the hearts and minds of the people. That is what the Civil Rights movement did.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...willing to stand strong against fascism in all forms.
Just as the Civil Rights Movement was willing to stand strong against minority oppression.
If it wasn't for the strength shown by anti-fascists, we wouldn't have defeated the nazis the first time around.
Easterncedar
(3,784 posts)They demonized the protesters at their fascist rallies, very tellingly calling them antifa. And the media let it happen. There was no antifa organization. Maybe there still is not.
But I am antifascist, so maybe I’m a solo antifa cell.
msfiddlestix
(7,967 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)msfiddlestix
(7,967 posts)First, definitely no point in creating an Anti-fa party for all the obvious reasons
But I do feel, our party never attempted to my knowledge or awareness, to define the word in very simple terms. Especially at the time of F47 first term when he used that term in a very negative way, and so did his cult followers in the Senate and so forth.
Charlottesville, is the primary moment when that should have been nipped in the bud, and then exploited in a meaningful way. It was never had been done then. It should have.
Ok that was then, this is now. Dem party leaders in Congress, in all of the state houses etc, Do it now.
Define Fascism, point to specific examples displayed every hour of every breathing moment that bastard is in office spewing his fascists edicts, no touchy feely bullshit.
Aim it to the courts as well, and the media who enable it, while explaining how it is antithetical to any form of democracy. That said, I'm not tuning in to any news broadcasts, I have been avoiding all information coming out of Washington.
So maybe our party leaders are doing this as we are discussing it? It's just about "resistance"
for the sake of opposition without the underlying premise in very clear terms.
Sorry, this is the best I can articulate at the moment.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)That was extremely well expressed and an extremely good and important point of view!
Thank you.
DJ Synikus Makisimus
(876 posts)That duopoly has been in place since the Farmer/Labor Party- Socialist Party - Progressive Party alliance candidate, Robert La Follette,* who had the temerity to attract nearly 17% of the Presidential vote in 1924, shaking capitalism to its core. Because of the legislation and restrictions that followed the '24 election, it is nearly impossible for any "third" party to run a national campaign. See the underfunded shambles that is the Green Party, for example. So you're left with the FREEDOM OF CHOICE between the capitalist oligarch-funded party that demands fascist oligarchy and the capitalist oligarch-funded party that won't do anything about it. Bottom line is In AmeriKKKa, the capitalist oligarchs don't lose. And don't forget, it's the most important election of your lifetime.
=====================================================
*His running mate was Burton K. Wheeler, btw, who figured prominently in Maddow's latest book; though the events she described so venomously did happen later.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....is there no way for the public to make ourselves be heard that we will use whatever anti-fascist power we have to assure ourselves decent lives?
DJ Synikus Makisimus
(876 posts)Within the confines of the political system as presently constituted I doubt it, at least on the state and national level. On the local level, sometimes the money involved isn't as great, there may be a slight chance. Probably not for a variety of reasons. Nationally, watch, for example, who assumes leadership in the Democratic Party in the coming days/weeks. I expect it will be the same sorts of people who do the same sorts of things that landed us here. The party is an oligarch-funded hierarchy, and seems unlikely to do much that's different from what's been done the past 30+ years, since the trashing of the Great Society Progressives, not that they were angels. Their major interest seems to be to preserve the status quo, or at least there (and their donors) part at the top of it. They're not doing especially well at that.
If you're talking more grassroots-y things, it depends on how far folks are willing to go, and now many can be mustered to do so. Let's face it, the system has mostly adapted to protests; unless large numbers of people of color participate or there's a major threat to business and their property, in which case the system ratchets up the repression. See the BLM protest in Washington and the "temporary autonomous zone" protest in Portland in the last year of Trump's first administration for a little taste of how far the system will go to repress. Know also that it will go much further with the GOP in charge, because unlike liberals, they care nothing about public opinion. They manufacture it with their propaganda outlets. I suspect things would have to go lots further with civil disobedience, probably beyond than the Vienam War era variety, and that's a risk that most aren't willing to take. For now at least. We'll see whether the GOP's actions personally and harshly impact enough folks to cause them to take action. To borrow a notion from Che Guevara, "what will constitute the subjective and objective conditions for civil disobedience on a prolonged scale?" Then, how many participants constitute enough will be one of the questions.
Of course the thing that looms ever-present in humanity's not-too-distant future (or lack thereof) is environmental collapse from pollution. Pollution means profits, so I don't expect anything there to change in a society where the only thing that really matters to the people who really matter is profit in the next quarter. We'll have to wait until the collapse to see what happens. I give it 75 years or so, and the last 10 won't be at all pleasant. You know what people eat when the food runs out, right? Fortunately, I'll be dead by then.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)I personally don't hold out a lot of hope for "street" activism (as some have mentioned here, it only gives the fascists a target), and I don't agree with aggressive action that endangers people (of any side) or property, but you do hit a good note when you speak of how protests that effect the bottom line of corporate businesses can make some powerful people sit up and pay attention.
As for environmental collapse, I think your timeframe of 75 years is wrong. As we see every time new studies are released, all of the damage to our complex ecological system is occurring at a far quicker rate than we predicted from previous studies, and the same with the studies prior to them. I believe we have far, far less than 75 year before a tipping point of stress is put on our systems, which will only exacerbate and speed up the further collapse of our only live support system as a whole.
DJ Synikus Makisimus
(876 posts)I just hope I'm dead by whenever environmental collapse happens. If not, I'll have to take care of it myself.
DJ Synikus Makisimus
(876 posts)street-level protest levels of the sort that might matter tend to depend on how much one's life is threatened. That's how it worked for the Civil Rights movement, not to mention the protests against the war in Vietnam. Take away Social Security, for example, and I'd expect the Trump dictatorship to be having to address the issue of "Gray terrorists," or whatever they decide to label us. The tools available to the coercive forces of the state (police, National Guard, military, Homeland Security, etc.) might make any resistance futile, but at the point of losing one's life what does it matter? Subjective and objective conditions.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)
AZJonnie
(262 posts)And almost all of them would've graduated since the whole thing started ... good luck with all that. In wingnuts fevered imagination, it's some powerful, giant, shadowy organization ... but wingnuts a bunch of paranoid morons (of course), and it's actually none of those things (okay maybe a little shadowy, esp. since there's almost no substance to their organization). We DO need something like what you're suggesting, but the idea of Antifa as a starting point for that is, no offense, a bit fanciful. They're basically nobody as far as I could ever tell. 
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....the original group to save our Democracy for us.
But yes, I also think a large movement dedicated to rooting out fascism in American politics is very much needed, and I personally belief that should be the focus of any efforts.
The small distractions they keep trying to confuse us with should take second place to the main objective of ridding our Democracy of those who are intent on destroying it.
We can "build back better" once they're gone.
TBF
(34,986 posts)and inability of those in authority to have a target. If we start a party and put someone in charge of it, that is just a target for Trump. He'd love to have an American version of Alexei Navalny to literally kill and hold up as an example.
There will be protests in the streets when things get worse, that will happen. But the democratic party itself is fine in that it exists, it has a history, and it is a blank slate right now. No one is really the leader. Kamala, Clintons, Bidens, Obamas - no one person is seen as the de facto leader. That's just as well right now. Let's focus on getting ready for midterms, documenting what Trump is doing so we can appeal against it, and there has got to be some way to challenge him at the polls as well (I think he and Elon are cheating somehow - more of that needs to be looked at).
Just an opinion, and I value your post in that you sense the seriousness of what has happened the past few days. Some folks are still wearing rose-colored glasses in here, and I applaud you for thinking out of the box in terms of what we can do.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Anti-fa is not a political party and the concepts of this group are at best ill-defined.
Link to tweet
This move would play into the GOP/Fox News propaganda. If the Democratic Party adopted this plan, we can kiss the next couple of election cycles goodbye
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Antifa are NOT socialists nor do they stand for Sharia law, nor are they terrorists.
Antifa as a group holds no other ideology than standing against fascism, hence the name. They are not organized under any other collective stance than fighting fascism. What each of them does or says individually is theirs alone.
The rightwing has done a good job of painting Antifa with all sorts of scary labels because the rightwing recognizes the threat to fascism that a purely anti-fascist group poses, but that's just part of the rightwing playbook, they do that to any group who opposes them (Transpeople are predators, etc.).
If we Dems are allowing their psy-op propaganda to work on us, we're lost.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Why do you want to elect republicans? I remind you that TFG won in both 2016 and 2024 due to third party voters. Here are some facts for you to ignore
Link to tweet
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...and then there's this, too...
By August of 2024, for the first time since 1946, self-proclaimed “vigilante” voter-fraud hunters challenged the rights of 317,886 voters. The NAACP of Georgia estimates that by Election Day, the challenges exceeded 200,000 in Georgia alone.
No less than 2,121,000 mail-in ballots were disqualified for minor clerical errors (e.g. postage due).
At least 585,000 ballots cast in-precinct were also disqualified.
1,216,000 “provisional” ballots were rejected, not counted.
3.24 million new registrations were rejected or not entered on the rolls in time to vote.
If the purges, challenges and ballot rejections were random, it wouldn’t matter. It’s anything but random. For example, an audit by the State of Washington found that a Black voter was 400% more likely than a white voter to have their mail-in ballot rejected.
Rejection of Black in-person votes, according to a US Civil Rights Commission study in Florida, ran 14.3% or one in seven ballots cast.
There are also the uncountable effects of the explosive growth of voter intimidation tactics including the bomb threats that closed 31 polling stations in Atlanta on Election Day.
Source: https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I have been volunteering on voter protection issues since 2004 when I went to Florida as part of the Kerry Edwards voter protection team. To fight GOP voter suppression, we need to elect more democrats to Congress and the Senate. The John Lewis Act and other proposed legislation would help. However, establishing a bogus left wind fringe party would only help the GOP. Your proposal would guarantee that the GOP would continue to win seats that they should lose.
Link to tweet
If the purpose of this thread is to help Democrats win, then advocating for the formation of another third party will NOT help that goal.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...the way forward is to collect, combine, and empower as many pro-democracy, anti-fascist voters against the current regime as possible, no matter what other party they belong to.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)You clearly have been dodging basic questions about a new "formal political party" and you are not able to explain how your propoal will work in the real world
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I am both a lawyer and a former college and high school debater. I live in the real world and deal with real world issues and have been involved in Democratic Party issues for a very long time in the real world. You really need to answer the questions raised if you want people to be able to respond to your "question" about this proposed new "formal political party".
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)TBF
(34,986 posts)your argument? Antifa has nothing to do with sharia law, and socialists have nothing to do with sharia law. Most folks in this country couldn't define socialism if it bit them in the ass, although they sure like their social security. 
Ultimately I don't think Antifa should become a political party, but this post that you quoted is an absolute mess.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts) Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Edit:
My attempt at a text graph didn't work, here's a link instead...
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/24/us/politics/hegseth-senate-confirmation-vote.html
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)We really must agree on some rules to debate properly.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Why will not explain why you want the GOP to win close races by having bogus third parties on the ballot who have no chance of being elected but who can help the GOP win close races
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)The only reason to add anti-fa was a new party is to help the GOP win close races. The US does NOT have a parliamentary system and the addition of a third party using the anti-fa name will only help the GOP
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...is to strengthen Anti-fascist voters against the facists.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)How will helping the GOP win close races help stop trump and the GOP. Again, we lost the PA senate seat due to idiots voting for a third party. Without the PA seat in GOP hands, Hegseth would not have been confirmed. Why do you want to help trump and the GOP win close races?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...strengthen the Pro-Democracy, Anti-fascist vote.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Tell the PA Democratic senate candidate who lost due to third party voters. I live in the real world and the addition of a new third party using the Anti-Fa name would only help fascists like trump by splitting the vote.
Again, why do you want to help fascists like trump? That is all that your proposal would do in the real world.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...well, strengthen the vote against the fascists.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Your proposal will help the fascists in the real world
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)How will vote splitting of liberal votes help anyone but trump and his fascists under the American system. America does NOT have a parliamentary system.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)You want to form a "formal political party but will not say what that party will do. In the real world, political parties run candidates to advance their agenda. If your "formal political party" is formed, will it nominate and support its own slate of candidates? How will this help your goals other than helping trump and his fellow fascists win races?
I like the real world and have been active in my local county, state and national parties for a long time. Your new "formal political party" is a dumb idea that will only help trump and his fellow fascists to win close races
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...that my hope is to strengthen Pro-Democracy and Anti-fascism.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)The formation of a "formal political party" is not magic. Explain how this "formal political party" will advance your goals. If this party cannot get onto the ballot or run candidates, who is going to pay attention to this "formal political party" in the real world? You are unable or refusing to answer this simple question.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...between Dems and Pro-Democracy, Antifascist groups of all kinds will consolidate our numbers and therefore strengthen Pro-Democracy, Anti-fascist efforts.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I live in the real world and have been active in the Democratic Party on the county, state and national level. Your silly explanation makes no sense in the real world. Why would anyone pay any attention to a "formal political party" that you propose? Your new "formal political party" will only siphon off votes from real democrats and help trump and his fascist win race. Have you ever seen in the real world where a fringe nutcase party has worked with a real political party? How will this silly concept work in the real world/
I would suggest that you go to a real party meeting and see how political parties work in the real world. It would be amusing to see you try to explain your proposal. trump and his fellow fascists would love to see someone in the real world try your silly proposal.
Again you need to explain how your proposal will work in the real world.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...I started this OP to discuss the various options for forming a stronger Anti-fascist response to the current nazi regime.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)You made a silly proposal that is clearly designed to help trump and his fellow fascists win more close elections by siphoning off votes to a bogus "formal political party" that would never elect a candidate.
I have never seen a real political party "work" with a fringe third party because the two parties are in competition. Have you seen this happen the real world?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Here is my OP in full...
...or will the Democratic Party become focused enough to do what must be done?
I realize this is a contentious question, but we now know that we are facing the second rise of the nazi party, and we need to face that reality head-on.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)You have repeatedly refused to explain how an antifa "formal political party" could be formed or operated in the real world. It is impossible to discuss your OP until and unless you describe how that new "formal political party" would operate in the real world and how such a new "formal political party" would advance your goals. Your refusal to provide any explanation means that you have answered the "question" raised in your OP. Such a new "formal political party" is clearly a dumb idea that would not work in the real world.
In the real world such a new "formal political party" would clearly siphon off votes for democratic candidates and help trump and his fascists advance their goals. If you want the so-called "question" to be discussed, you need to think through the implications of your "question." You have refused to answer rather basic questions about this new "formal political party" and so there is nothing to discuss with respect to your amusing "question".
If you want your amusing "question" to be taken seriously, you need to answer the basic questions raised.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I am both a lawyer and a former college and high school debater. I live in the real world and deal with real world issues and have been involved in Democratic Party issues for a very long time in the real world. You really need to answer the questions raised if you want people to be able to respond to your "question" about this proposed new "formal political party".
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)You do understand that there is no way a bogus ultra-liberal third party will win any real races. Please explain how your silly plan will work in the real world? You have refused to answer this question.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...it's about strengthening the Pro-Democracy voice against fascism.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)This is from your sad OP
...or will the Democratic Party become focused enough to do what must be done?
If you form a "formal political party", then you are demanding that this "formal political party" be a real party which means running candidates and trying to get onto the ballot. What do you think that the term "formal political party" means in the real world? You want a "formal political party" that will not run candidates? What will this "formal political party do if it is not running candidates?
Again, why do you want to help trump and the GOP by forming a "formal political party" who will have candidates on the ballot? I live in the real world and your concept/proposal is a very dumb idea that will only help trump and his fellow fascists. Have you been to a meeting of a real political party. In addition to being a 2016 Clinton delegate to the National Convention, I am active in my county and state party. Our main goal is to select and run candidates. We had a meeting of my county party last night where the main issue is to protect local candidates and recruit new candidates for the next election cycle. I would not dream of suggesting your concept at any party meeting but if you really think that your silly proposal has merit, I would urge you to go to a party meeting and advance your amusing plan there. That would be fun to hear about
Again explain how your proposal will work in the real world?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)It says nothing about anything that I might want.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)I only spoke of strengthening Pro-Democracy, Anti-fascist efforts.
lapucelle
(19,689 posts)"Don't make stuff" up is an excellent rule for debating properly.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...that Independent candidates aren't considered third party candidates.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Independents in the U.S. Senate are not part of a single unified "Independent Party". Instead, they are individuals who choose not to align with either of the two major political parties. Bernie Sanders, for example, identifies as a democratic Socialist and caucuses with the Democrats. Angus King generally votes with the Democrats but retains his independent status.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* and pretending that it's true has no real or honorable value. You claimed that they belonged to the "Independent Party" and that is demonstrably false.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts) Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...the OP has gained a few recs and it's been viewed close to 3000 times now!
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)And 3000 is not indicative of unique views from 3000 individuals. I'm sure you knew that. I think it's charming when someone has clearly lost the argument on the merits and facts, so they wrap it all up by saying "thanks for the kicks" or "thanks for the recs". (So views and "recs" was your objective? That's kinda sad, isn't it?)
Oh well... I guess I just have higher standards.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts) Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* and unique visitors. Nice try, but "3000+" unique visitors viewing this thread is pure fantasy. As is the notion that supporting third parties is the same as supporting Democrats. NEITHER IS TRUE.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)And thank you for kicking it up to 225 replies!
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)... in addition to harming the Democratic party by calling for and supporting third parties.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)As is very clear in the OP, my objective is to discuss whether a stronger presence of Anti-fascist voices is needed in our current political spectrum.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Third parties siphon votes from the Democratic party. Stop promoting that it's a viable and reasonable alternative. Seriously. Stop.
Self delete this thread. It's a cesspool of misinformation.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Third party members who vote for other party's candidates exist.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)
Yes, they they do.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...of any party, strong candidates that satisfy their party's ideologies, results in those voters voting for those candidates.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)STOP SUPPORTING THIRD PARTIES!
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)I see you. I know what this is about. I'm not fooled.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* that will siphon votes from Democratic candidates.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...will result in anything except bringing those third party votes into the hand of our obviously stronger candidate that will achieve those goals.
I believe you might be underestimating the benefits of work WITH other parties to achieve our mutual goals.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)* third parties SIPHON VOTES FROM the Democratic party. They ALWAYS siphon votes.
I believe YOU might be deceiving yourself by ignoring the fact that third parties always act as spoilers.
Major parties and third parties do not "collaborate" together. Promoting that lie does not make it true. Belief in fantasy scenarios is dangerous.
Stop supporting third parties. Support Democrats only.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)...that third parties must, in every instance, siphon votes from any other party.
I also do not agree that major parties and third parties simply can not collaborate together, if their goals are the same.
Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)But I appreciate your honesty in admitting and confirming that you do indeed support third parties, and that you do not see them as spoilers and a threat to the Democratic party.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Oopsie Daisy
(5,141 posts)Response to Think. Again. (Reply #208)
Think. Again. This message was self-deleted by its author.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)Facts are being ignore on this thread by the posters who want to help the GOP and fascists win future election by putting a bogus third party on the ballot.
I really do not understand why people who want to help trump and the fascists in the GOP win close elections by adding a bogus third party think that this will hurt the fascists
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)A new third party is a really stupid plan that will only help trump and his fascists. Why do you want to help trump and his fascists
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)TBF
(34,986 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)I asked the OP to explain why you want to help the GOP win close races by having bogus third-party candidates on the ballot who have no chance of winning in the real world but who can help the GOP win close races? Please explain?
Again adding an antifa party to the ballot is a very stupid idea unless your goal is to help the GOP win close races? Why do you want to help the GOP win close races?
Again in the real world, third parties helped TFG win in 2016 and 2024
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Please explain why you want to help the GOP win close races?
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)TBF
(34,986 posts)and you went off on something entirely different. We were talking about Antifa, what it was, and you posted a ridiculous post that compared them to Sharia Law. Really, it was insulting. Since that didn't work, I guess you've moved on to other people you've decided are a threat to the democratic party. Antifa was never a threat to the party - they operated autonomously and outside the party.
Anyway, I'm not sure what they point of any of your follow-up posts are, except that you very strongly don't want any other parties. But I think the bickering and desire to call out and destroy everyone on the far left is short-sighted. If we can't get it together in this country and figure out how to work with others, we are all going to be reporting to King Trump, there will be no parties to worry about.
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)So you support helping trump and the GOP win close elections due to vote splitting.
TBF
(34,986 posts)because you have no answer as to why you posted an insane 5-year old tweet. You will say absolutely anything to avoid answering the question. Just throw insults at others and hope they stick. 
WarGamer
(16,159 posts)Fascism has become the "catch all word" for everyone from the police officer who gave you a ticket to the waiter at the restaurant who didn't credit your check because the bread was cold.
marble falls
(62,893 posts)Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)....anti-fascist voters as we can find to work against the nazis currently in charge.
Even if they are members of a different party than ours.
The main objective going forward should be defeating the nazis.
TBF
(34,986 posts)is risky because the centrists are determined they will go anywhere but left. Even if they have to sit on their hands for 4 years and watch Trump blow everything up.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)OLDMDDEM
(2,244 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(34,242 posts)Their masks off first.
betsuni
(27,425 posts)so they can enjoy themselves infighting about purity and just how much they hate capitalism and hate the U.S. and throw everyone they hate for failing the purity test under the fleet of buses) to ensure Republicans are in power for decades to come. Then they'll be happy. Twenty, thirty years later they'll still blame Democrats and call them neoliberals and neocons and froth at the mouth.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)lapucelle
(19,689 posts)It says it right in the headline.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)It says that right in the OP.
Ilikepurple
(152 posts)I’m sure seeing a lot of this newly promoted conservative term of art around here lately, mainly at those who don’t want the marginalized to get in the way of the neoliberal faction of the party. That’s okay. Big tent and all.
kimbutgar
(23,997 posts)Happen here. I see the magaloons being the new brown shirts.
It’s streaming for free on Tubi
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Edit to add:
Or they want to cower.
Or they want it to happen.
samnsara
(18,371 posts)....we are already anti-fa whether anyone knows it or not. Ive got Marc Brays book...also I have a weathered copy of the Anarchist Cookbook.
So I vote YES!!!
Turbineguy
(38,687 posts)Maybe we should create a new party for crazier trump supporters.
TIGEIHD
Trump is great even if he's dead.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Turbineguy
(38,687 posts)
LetMyPeopleVote
(157,445 posts)The GOP and trump will tie the Democratic party and Democratic candidates to anti-fa if this silly proposal is adopted or pursued in the real world.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)Because I promise you, they will.
58Sunliner
(5,167 posts)What we need to do is hold any and all dem leadership accountable to their stated promises and actions that imperil Americans and our party.
Think. Again.
(21,227 posts)The obvious point of the OP is that we need a strong Anti-fascist response to the current nazi regime, and any and all efforts to that end should be made.
Gore1FL
(22,121 posts)I don't get the question.