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So, when are the serfs of the Corporate World gonna have their Popeye Moment: (Original Post) Jackpine Radical May 2015 OP
I don't know what the spark will be... TDale313 May 2015 #1
The police in many areas have assault vehicles, small armored tanks DJ13 May 2015 #5
Correct dreamnightwind May 2015 #6
Agreed DJ13 May 2015 #8
Absolutely. The only way to go is nonviolence. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #14
In the first roughly three quarters of the 20th century, things were very different than they are merrily May 2015 #17
I think they've been preparing for revolution for a long time. Maybe since 1789, but merrily May 2015 #10
See what moving left gets you? Jackpine Radical May 2015 #15
FANTASTIC post, Jackpine. Very interesting. Thank you so much. merrily May 2015 #16
Oh, they'll kill us. That is why they have militarized the police. That is the reason for the NSA. Enthusiast May 2015 #12
LMAO! marym625 May 2015 #2
I'm not at all sure they won't. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #3
Very true marym625 May 2015 #4
Probably when the more wrathful face of the corporate diety is in power dreamnightwind May 2015 #7
Exactly why I feel any dollar spent on his candidacy will not be wasted, win, lose or..., well, it merrily May 2015 #18
As soon as we convince people that their perscription of blue pills is enslaving them whereisjustice May 2015 #9
A sub-species bred for the specific traits of docility, meekness, and masochism? Demeter May 2015 #11
gonna be awhile. stupid is too deeply ingrained in the collective american psyche KG May 2015 #13
kick merrily Jul 2015 #19
Two things need to happen for the Popeye Moment to occur robertpaulsen Aug 2015 #20

TDale313

(7,822 posts)
1. I don't know what the spark will be...
Sat May 16, 2015, 08:31 PM
May 2015

But it won't take much. People are stretched to the breaking point.

The second question is, of course, how will tptb respond. I have the sense they've been preparing for a potential backlash for a while- part of the militarization of the police in this country.

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
5. The police in many areas have assault vehicles, small armored tanks
Sat May 16, 2015, 10:58 PM
May 2015

and even sonic cannons (which I'm not sure are even allowed by the Geneva Conventions).

You have to figure the feds didnt give those weapons to towns of 10,000 people just to go after drunk drivers.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
6. Correct
Sat May 16, 2015, 11:38 PM
May 2015

They know how to deal with violence, which is one reason non-violent civil disobedience is the right approach, not to mention violence just adds to a cycle of violence. Non-violence is not the same as compliance though, and it will take a lot of determined people to get the change we need. Occupy seemed like a good start.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
14. Absolutely. The only way to go is nonviolence.
Sun May 17, 2015, 08:50 AM
May 2015

Violent revolutions generally have bad outcomes. Chenoweth & Stephan examined all the social upheavals of the 20th century & found 2 things about violent revolutions. They are less likely to succeed in the first place, and when they do succeed in toppling the existing regime, they generally replace it with one just as bad or worse.

I have no interest whatsoever in replacing our Corporate State with a Dictatorship of the Droolers.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
17. In the first roughly three quarters of the 20th century, things were very different than they are
Mon May 18, 2015, 08:59 AM
May 2015

now, at least in the US.

No internet and no 24 hour TV.

Media not owned by 4 or 5 mega corporations.

Media more honest and more competitive.

Liberals having more influence.

The government not armed to the gills or surveilling to the gills and therefore less concerned about revolution than ever before in history.

The country not as sharply and mindlessly divided

Getting a message out and/or getting elected did not take billiions (hard money alone!)

I agree that violent revolution seldom ends up with a better regime in power.

I am hopeful about seeing a more populist government, but it is not going to be easy, or cheap.

Are we up for the sacrifices?

merrily

(45,251 posts)
10. I think they've been preparing for revolution for a long time. Maybe since 1789, but
Sun May 17, 2015, 02:34 AM
May 2015

most definitely since the Russian revolutions. IMO, one of the purposes of the New Deal and of the Great Society was to stave off the possibility of revolution.

Communists and socialists were among the first in modern times to espouse the ideas of racial equality, gender equality, the rights of workers and economic justice. As such they appealed to liberals and also threatened the same kinds of people who feel threatened by the left today.

The list from which Revoltin' Joe McCarthy worked initially was the one that the FBI prepared during World War II, when the Russians were our allies, at least in theory, and even before.

Then came the 1960s, including the Weathermen, including the bomb that Ayers planted in the Pentagon toilet. Back then, to the general public, that was an anti-war protest that many understood and some even admired. However, I doubt that the joint chiefs and others in government saw it that way. (Now, even to the general public, it's domestic terra-ism against the Homeland.)


The anti-Vietnam war/antidraft/peace movements, the peaceful civil rights movement, the more militant civil rights groups and the economic justice groups had begun to coalesce. A few assassinations and Kent State put a crimp in all that nonsense, to say the least, but the government got the message. Or rather, the message of the Russian revolutions got reinforced in the collective mind of the US plutocracy.

In any event, I am relatively certain they've been preparing for a revolution since well before World War II.*

911 was the perfect opportunity to ramp up even further with Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. Now, if I leave my building and walk eight blocks to the left, I will pass three cameras on the street and only heaven knows how many private security cameras, including the several that my own building operates.



*I have always believed that fear of a second revolution was the reason the nation got the Bill of Rights so fast (six months).

The people demanding this stuff had just fought and won a revolution against one form of government they did not care for and nothing prevented an encore. And, the serfs always outnumber the plutocrats. Voila! The bargaining power to demand and get the Bill of Rights and the willingness of government to fulfill its promise ASAP.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
15. See what moving left gets you?
Sun May 17, 2015, 09:29 AM
May 2015

"Now, if I leave my building and walk eight blocks to the left, I will pass three cameras on the street and only heaven knows how many private security cameras, including the several that my own building operates."

As for the rest of it, you're absolutely right in your analyses. There were strong left-wing movements in the US since the mid-19th century. Remember that the city of Milwaukee was founded largely by German socialists fleeing Bismarck in 1848 after a failed revolution. Milwaukee's last socialist mayor, a thoroughly wonderful man named Frank Zeidler, served until 1960. Milwaukee had a magnificent infrastructure of parks, streets & public works. They were often referred to as the "Sewer Socialists" because everything from the sewers on up worked as they were supposed to.

The labor movement was suppressed with violence, and even massacres, from the late 19th Century to WWII, as were certain other civil uprisings such as the Veterans' Bonus March. Here's a para on the Bonus Army from Wikipedia. You will recognize 2 names in it:

Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time, visited their camp to back the effort and encourage them.[1] On July 28, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the army to clear the veterans' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded the infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned.



The IWW in the early 20th Century was a frankly socialist movement. You might read Steinbeck (Grapes of Wrath, In Dubious Battle) to get a sense of what leftist union organizing was like in the 30's.

The fact that we celebrate Labor Day when we do rather than on May 1 like the rest of the world is not an accident. That day was chosen, back in the 1890's, to dissociate it from the international labor movement.

The Dies Committee in the 30's was the precursor to HUAC.

As for the end of WWII, there was certainly an intensification of anti-communist fervor. Significantly (to me, at least), the old War Department became the Department of Defense, and the old OSS became the CIA. Those two name changes--so doublespeak-ish in nature, heralded in the new era of Permanent War.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
16. FANTASTIC post, Jackpine. Very interesting. Thank you so much.
Sun May 17, 2015, 11:41 AM
May 2015

The reason I know about the cameras if I go to my after I exit the building: The day Boston and 6 other cities and towns were asked to "shelter in place" while all kinds of armed folk were searching for Tsarnaev, I was (defiantly, for me) leaving the building.

I wanted to buy my favorite french fries--other than the ones I make myself. The building manager was hanging in the lobby at the time. When I told him where I was headed, he pointed out to me how many cameras I was about to pass.

Didn't know about Milwaukee! Interesting.

I was familiar with the Bonus Army. Not mentioned in your excerpt is another General who participated in the brutal treatment of the World War I veterans--Eisenhower. Wouldn't you think generals would have had more compassion for desperate veterans?

A PBS program about President Hoover claimed Hoover had not intended for the vets to be treated so poorly, but the generals had misunderstood his intent. Yeah, I don't buy it.

I also knew about Labor Day and have posted about it on two separate Labor Days since I started posting here. (I think the least we can do is celebrate it on May 1, along with with the rest of the world.) It was fixed in September not only to disassociate it from the international movement but to disassociate it from the Haymarket massacre, which occurred right here in the US early one May. http://www.illinoislaborhistory.org/haymarket/the-story-of-the-haymarket-affair.html

I saw the movie version of Grapes of Wrath on TV. However, I was so little at the time that all I remember is desperately wanting to help everyone in the movies, especially the character played hauntingly by Henry Fonda. (I seem to have been born with an overabundance of empathy. I remember my mother remarking on it to her friends when I was about 5.)

I did not know about the Dies Committee, either. I will have to look that up.

VERY interesting. Thanks again.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
12. Oh, they'll kill us. That is why they have militarized the police. That is the reason for the NSA.
Sun May 17, 2015, 06:20 AM
May 2015

They know who we are. They do not represent or work for us. They consider us to be the enemy because we don't want to acquiesce to their every wish. They have us looking at Isis but Isis is just so much bullshit.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
3. I'm not at all sure they won't.
Sat May 16, 2015, 08:51 PM
May 2015

The problem is that there could as easily be a fascist turn as a socialist one.

Remember how quickly things changed between 1930, when everyone was just accepting what had happened to them, tightening their belts, and watching their farms being taken away. Then in 1932 they came out in droves to elect FDR. Under crisis & high-stress situations, things can happen very suddenly.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
7. Probably when the more wrathful face of the corporate diety is in power
Sat May 16, 2015, 11:43 PM
May 2015

With the kinder face of a Democrat in the White House, it's easy for people to think they did all they needed to and the person in charge is working in their interest.

If a Republican gets in the White House, more people see what's up. Not that I'm advocating for that, I'm advocating for Bernie, who is not part of the game. Long-shot for sure, one worth working for though, and his candidacy, win or lose, will go a long way toward explaining what we're up against to a nation who is largely informed by corporate media.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
18. Exactly why I feel any dollar spent on his candidacy will not be wasted, win, lose or..., well, it
Mon May 18, 2015, 09:01 AM
May 2015

won't be a draw.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
9. As soon as we convince people that their perscription of blue pills is enslaving them
Sun May 17, 2015, 12:15 AM
May 2015

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
11. A sub-species bred for the specific traits of docility, meekness, and masochism?
Sun May 17, 2015, 05:20 AM
May 2015

Will NEVER have a Popeye moment.

KG

(28,766 posts)
13. gonna be awhile. stupid is too deeply ingrained in the collective american psyche
Sun May 17, 2015, 07:20 AM
May 2015

look at who their electing to congress. and check out the comments section of just about any news website. or even the denial of reality on DU.

robertpaulsen

(8,697 posts)
20. Two things need to happen for the Popeye Moment to occur
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 04:19 PM
Aug 2015
1) The lights need to go out.

I'm talking about the electricity grid going kaput for an extended period of time. If the grid goes down for at least a week or two, people won't be glued to their sofas watching a blank screen. They won't be walking around with their heads pointed down fiddling with a cell phone they can't charge. They won't be able to buy their way to happiness when ATMs don't work! They'll have no choice but to drop their apathy, drop their complacency and take direct action.

2) The climate starts cooking our farmlands to the point we can't grow food for first world citizens.

After Katrina, after Sandy, I'm convinced the only way Climate Change will stop being a "debatable" subject for Americans will be when we lose our ability to grow enough food to feed our 300 million+ and growing population. When grocery shelves start going bare, people are going to shed their ideological inhibitions pretty fucking fast in exchange for a lasting solution.

Unfortunately, I don't think either of these scenarios will happen until the 20s at the earliest, most likely the 30s, but definitely by the 40s. In other words: when it's too fucking late to fix civilization.
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