Third Way Founders Jon Cowen & Jim Kessler tell us: Economic Populism is a Dead End for Democrats

[sabrina 1]

Before we can reform the Democratic Party, it is necessary to identify the problems that need reform.

Primarily the increasing swing to the Right.

That is why people are looking a lot closer at the Third Way who have gained so much power within the Party.

Jon Cowen and Jim Kessler - Economic Populism Is A Dead End For Democrats.

If you ever wondered where the Right Wing talking points against the Left were coming from within the Democratic Party look no further than the Third Way.

Remember as you read these pronouncements from two of the Third Way's founders, that these are the people making policy decisions and choosing candidates for YOU:

If you talk to leading progressives these days, you'll be sure to hear this message: The Democratic Party should embrace the economic populism of New York Mayor-elect Bill de Blasio and Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren. Such economic populism, they argue, should be the guiding star for Democrats heading into 2016. Nothing would be more disastrous for Democrats.

I always wondered about these attacks on FDR's policies coming from members of the Party who should be proud of them, especially considering how popular they are with the American people.

The political problems of liberal populism are bad enough. Worse are the actual policies proposed by left-wing populists. The movement relies on a potent "we can have it all" fantasy that goes something like this: If we force the wealthy to pay higher taxes (there are 300,000 tax filers who earn more than $1 million), close a few corporate tax loopholes, and break up some big banks then—presto!—we can pay for, and even expand, existing entitlements. Meanwhile, we can invest more deeply in K-12 education, infrastructure, health research, clean energy and more.

And there it is again, the derision of Liberals and their "retarded ideas" we expect from Fox News!

And right from influential members of our own Party!

You will probably find a lot of this to be familiar. Does 'you are not living in the 'reality based community' sound familiar eg?

I'm sure as a Liberal you have been attacked with some of these 'talking points'.

'Liberals live in a fantasy world, where they want PONIES and EVERYTHING!'

Well the Third Way is a Think Tank. They come up with ways to manipulate language. But this is supposed to be a 'liberal think tank' who uses these talking points against the Left?

Aren't they supposed to BE Left?

Anyhow, let's keep going, it gets better. They are coming to the lies we've become so familiar with regarding Social Security:

Social Security is exhibit A of this populist political and economic fantasy. A growing cascade of baby boomers will be retiring in the coming years, and the Social Security formula increases their initial benefits faster than inflation. The problem is that since 2010 Social Security payouts to seniors have exceeded payroll taxes collected from workers. This imbalance widens inexorably until it devours the entire Social Security Trust Fund in 2031, according to the Congressional Budget Office. At that point, benefits would have to be slashed by about 23%.

Undeterred by this undebatable solvency crisis, Sen. Warren wants to increase benefits to all seniors, including billionaires, and to pay for them by increasing taxes on working people and their employers. Her approach requires a $750 billion tax hike over the next 10 years that hits mostly Millennials and Gen Xers, plus another $750 billion tax on the businesses that employ them.

There are so many lies contained in those two paragraphs they have outdone Fox News on distortions of the reality of the Social Security Fund, which has more than one source of income, and a two trillion dollar surplus, not to mention, the Baby Boomers (see how they drop that in, just like their Right Wing friends) more than paid for their SS benefits.

And the subtle reference to Warren 'wanting to include Billionaires'. So transparent, seriously, I thought these people were at least smart enough not to try to put this garbage over on actual Democrats.

And they are so frightened that their Wall St backers might have to contribute some taxes to this country.

How ANYONE can believe that the Third Way belongs in the Democratic Party in any kind of policy making capacity, or in the choosing of candidates, is beyond me.

I suggest reading the entire article, it is short. But far more revealing than they thought it would be. '

No surprise they chose Murdoch's Wall St. Journal to publish it in.

I would like to invite them here to this group and try to make those claims.

But they don't mix with the little people, so I doubt we'll ever see that.

They are so scared. Their policies are being rejected, their dreams of the privatization of SS are facing what those dreams always face, see Bush, failure.

And their Wall St backers are no doubt angry at the rise of the new Populism and definitely at Elizabeth Warren for being the voice of the people when it comes to Wall St corruption.

[Maedhros]

1. Thank you, Sabrina.

We expect the Republicans to lie to our faces about taxes and Social Security - but now the Democrats as well?

[Enthusiast]

36. They PRETEND to be Democrats.

It is a a masquerade. Third Way should be considered pure poison by every single Democratic Party member.

[Scuba]

44. +1

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

66. Agreed!

Our party needs to return to the days of Roosevelt. (Either one would be a million times better than the party we have now.)

[RiverLover]

67. They're the ultimate Pretendems.

Making a mockery of the 2 party system when all they want is corporations to have their way with us, whichever side wins elections.

We can thank the triangulating, greedy sob's for this 2nd Gilded Age we're experiencing.

[Enthusiast]

69. The triangulating, greedy sob's are more responsible for our problems than are the Republicans.

Very much how a saboteur can damage a military effort more effectively than an organized military force.

[RiverLover]

2. This just proves they are Republicans trying to make it so that whichever "team" wins in elections,

corporations & big moneyed interests will be in the backdoor to the government for certain.

They're BAD news.

Thanks for posting. Though I may have nightmares about these guys tonight!!!

[Cosmic Kitten]

3. Those 3rd Way guys are seriosly afraid of Populism

Fear of Social Democracy is the reason they exist as a political entity

[Ken Burch]

9. Fear of ANY Democracy, as far as that goes.

They want government of, by, and for a financial-technocratic elite, uniquely qualified, as they see it, to demand sacrifice from the many while increasing privilege for the few(including the mythical "creative class"-a group that does not display any actual creativity, but rather a complete indifference to any of the human consequences of anything they advocate, and who pretend it is "creative" to throw thousands of people out of work in a single day, transfer their jobs to low-wage countries, and slash the wages and benefits of anyone lucky enough NOT to lose their job--except for the board of directors and the shareholders, who receive massive dividends and bonuses for their economic sadism).

[L0oniX]

4. Apparently they feel some pressure or they wouldn't bother to say something.

[NYC_SKP]

5. The heat is on.

This is a good sign, I think.

Recommended.

[Phlem]

6. Thanks Sabrina for spelling this out.

After the midterms I went on a tirade trying to find out exactly where the conservative voices were coming from within our party and found these guys. I guess I was so pissed I couldn't get it down as succinctly as you did and pretty much just started slamming the 3rd way right after the midterms ( a little before but mostly after).

This is the cancer in the party and it needs to be removed immediately.

I've no doubt this why we are where we are today.

Please continue, everyone single person in the US needs to know this so we must repeat it over and over again.

Great Job!

[Demeter]

7. I've been battered with this BS right here on DU, and so have many others

I really think if there's going to be tombstoning, it should be applied to these non-democrats.

[sabrina 1]

30. I couldn't agree more, and if this was 2003, that is exactly what would have happened to those

Last edited Sat Jan 10, 2015, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)

attacking DUers BECAUSE they support Democratic values.

Many good Duers have left because of it.

But at least we know where it is coming from and that's a start to begin to deal with it.

[supercats]

8. No-Way To The Third-Way!!!

Be who you really are....Republicans with money. And Get The Fuck OUT of the Democratic party and it's policies. We need the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic party to take control because it will benefit us all!!! End Of Story!

[silvershadow]

10. Well, that's it then. It will be a Republican. nt

[sabrina 1]

24. If they have any say in it, it WILL be.

[frylock]

11. GOTV!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

47. Steal their voters.

We're down to the point where everyone who can be bothered to vote basically does. We can't just try to get lefty voters out. We've got to cross over and target their wafflers and softies, and see if we can't get them to vote for indies if not for Dems.

[whereisjustice]

12. Third Way is a Republican front group, don't give them refuge here, they can tea bag over there

[Curmudgeoness]

13. In my eyes, the failure of their thinking

is that I insist on continuing Social Security, Medicare, and other "entitlements" (god, I hate that word) even if they are not able to support themselves. Although I do not believe in these dire predictions, and I see so many ways to strengthen the programs (raise or eliminate the cap on taxable wages, for one), I really do not give a shit whether they can fund them only on FICA and Medicare taxes. If they have to used general fund taxes, so be it. If they have to pull money from the war machine to fund the peace machine, so be it.

[sabrina 1]

25. Social Security is NOT in trouble. They are lying. That's what people have to remember. Lying and

it's a blatant and huge lie.

SS has more than one source of income.

The deception in their statement that the fund didn't collect enough taxes, implying that it had a shortfall, is called a 'white lie'.

It has NOT had a single year where it did not SHOW A SURPLUS even throughout the crash, CAUSED BY THEIR BUDDIES on WALL ST.

All that is needed to continue the fiscal security of SS is to keep Wall St in check, #1. And then create JOBS HERE IN THE US.

But regardless, they are trying to claim that SS didn't bring in enough when in fact it had a surplus thanks to the interest on the Bonds the Government is holding, and one other source.

They are to be blunt, outrageous liars.

And I'm glad they got so desperate they finally came out into the open so we could see where these lies were coming from.

[Scuba]

45. +1,000

[JDPriestly]

74. The TPP will mean the loss of jobs and lower wages and thus, hurt Social Security and Medcare.

That is another reason to oppose the TPP.

[sabrina 1]

75. What they are hoping to do is to equalize wages for Corporations across the globe. I think they are

hiding the TPP because, as Ron Wyden I believe, said, 'if the people knew what is in it, they would oppose it'.

So if they fast track it, the people will have no say until it is way, way too late.

[JDPriestly]

76. Right!

[Enthusiast]

37. "pull money from the war machine to fund the peace machine"

Who ever heard of such a thing! That kind of thinking might harm the job creators!

[Cosmic Kitten]

46. "entitlements" is a word that needs REFRAMING

The right-wing and 3rd-wayers use it
as a pejorative dog-whistle to invoke
racist and economic class resentments.

Are there any people in society who
don't hold some sense of entitlement?
Life, Liberty, & the Pursuit of Happiness
are certainly "entitlements", aka "rights".

What "entitlements" do the economic elite hold?
THEY are entitled to Social Security, despite
NOT needing that economic social support.

Social Security is "Poverty Insurance", right?
It is intended to keep the elderly and handicapped
from living destitute in their most vulnerable times.
People who are NOWHERE near poverty feel "entitled"
to Social Security because... why?

When you pay Social Security "tax" that is your
"anti-poverty insurance" premium.
What other insurance policy provided an annuity
if you never actually need the insurance provided?
Can you get auto insurance premiums back if you stop driving?
Can you get a health insurance annuity if you never get sick?

Why should millionaires get poverty insurance,
aka Social Security, checks if they are not near poverty?
BECAUSE they feel ENTITLED.

Tell the working-class millionaires are ENTITLED
to money from the "anti-poverty" program...
see how they like those "entitlements".

Emotion trumps reason

[sabrina 1]

49. Exactly, the Right Wing Think Tanks turned the word 'Entitlement' into an epithet aimed

the poor and the elderly and other vulnerable members of society.

SS IS a retirement Insurance policy and no matter how much people object to calling it an Insurance Policy people should do so.

The Left backs off or tries to 'explain' things too often.

If there's one lesson we could take from the Right it is to remain FIRM when we know we are right.

Insurance has a different meaning to people. It means you EARNED it because you paid into it.

Now we have the Right AND the Third Way 'democrats' attempting to create the impression that people are getting something for nothing.

I agree with you completely on this.

[JEB]

14. Wolves in sheepskin.

I will not vote for any third way corporate candidates for any office.

[Enthusiast]

38. They appear to be in control of the party.

[Thespian2]

15. Great Insight in this post

Thanks, sabrina 1. Unless progressives get going, the Democratic Party will be past history.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. No, as Bill Maher has pointed out the Democtrats will take the place of the Republicans....

....and the Republicans will go in the Nut House.

[Thespian2]

48. Thanks

I fear much of this has already happened...Third Way Republicans.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. It started with the "New Democrats" like Harold Ford and Bill Clinton....

This is what I expected with Hillary rising to power.

The adoption of Right Wing claims about Obama's "failed" presidency and a subsequent purge of everyone Obama brought to Washington, most of whom were much more Liberal than Obama himself.

We made a LOT of Liberal advances in DC and these people want all of that undone to capture the hearts of the 1%.

[pansypoo53219]

16. vichy ekonomikkks.

[Oldtimeralso]

17. Is this the Third Way or...

the Turd Way. The ideas they express are awful shitty to me!

[TrollBuster9090]

18. Economic Populism? It's just a fad that Third Way Democrats who cultivate Wall Street don't have to

be afraid of.

"And if the peasants don't have enough money to pay their mortgages, then let them eat more capital gains tax cuts...".

[sabrina 1]

32. They're getting scared of the peasants. That is why they made the mistake of publishing that

article. Rage and anger that the people are CHOOSING populists, like Mayor de Blasio and Elizabeth Warren, over THEIR choices finally.

I should have added to the OP that they received so much backlash from that article, they have refused to discuss it.

[Enthusiast]

40. Such a pretty dress! <Swoon>

[sabrina 1]

50. Lol!

[bread_and_roses]

41. LOL, good one! (n/t)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

19. I had a pony....

Okay, a colt. Born in a barn on my horse ranch.

Cute little thing.

[GaltFreeDiet]

20. Corporatist "Democrats" can go suck shit.

We need to be loud with these assholes. NO compromise.

And FUCK being polite. We can't afford that luxury anymore.

[sabrina 1]

26. These people are not Democrats. They may claim to be but they are not.

And I agree, they are not polite, they HATE the Left, probably even more than many Republicans do.

[PSPS]

21. "there are 300,000 tax filers who earn more than $1 million"

The political problems of liberal populism are bad enough. Worse are the actual policies proposed by left-wing populists. The movement relies on a potent "we can have it all" fantasy that goes something like this: If we force the wealthy to pay higher taxes (there are 300,000 tax filers who earn more than $1 million), close a few corporate tax loopholes, and break up some big banks then—presto!—we can pay for, and even expand, existing entitlements. Meanwhile, we can invest more deeply in K-12 education, infrastructure, health research, clean energy and more.

That's a low figure, of course. But, nevertheless, this is language used to mask the fact that the wealth earned by these people is literally difficult to even comprehend. I know some of these people. They buy their kids multi-million-dollar homes in cash as wedding gifts. Bored on a Friday afternoon? Here, take my always-paid-off-every-month limit-free credit card down to the boat dealer and buy a boat to play with over the weekend.

Nobody needs more than $2 million in annual income, and even that is insanely generous. Every dollar in income over that amount should be taxed at 90%.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. They're trying to get people to think the rich aren't THAT rich. (But they are)....

Some are so rich they wouldn't even NOTICE a tax increase unless someone told them.

[sabrina 1]

28. The Third Way works for them. The ultra rich already had the Republican Party all bought up.

But they couldn't fulfill all their goals, Privatizing SS eg, and then investing it in their gambling casino, so long as there was a party of the Working Class. So they had to take over at least half that party to achieve their goals.

And it worked, for them and their buddies. For the first time in its history, Democrats, not Republicans, but Democrats PUT SS ON THE TABLE, falsely tying it to the Deficit!

They realized after Bush tried to mess with SS that a Republican couldn't do it because the Left would go wild, which we did.

But, if a Democrat did it? And they were right. I have people on Dem forums try to 'explain' it.

When there is no explanation. But at least we know the deal now, who these people are who hate the working class and their 'retarded ideas'.

What to do about it is the problem. They have gained a very strong foothold in the Dem Party.

But they ARE scared of Elizabeth Warren and of the fact that voters are no longer buying their BS.

That is why they wrote this article.

[sabrina 1]

29. Since they hide their money offshore, it is hard to know how rich they really are.

And that is another thing. They don't pay taxes at the rate the working class does, with all the breaks they get etc. And they keep the money they DO have OUT of this economy because they do not care about this country.

And we can't seem to get Congress to enforce any of the laws we have to end these corruptions.

As Bill Moyers said: The best weapon Wall St has is CONGRESS!'

Bought and paid for. Which is why we have been so frustrated wondering WHY they won't prosecute these bankers.

[nikto]

27. I say...

Kick these wannabe GOPers out of the party and make 'em either join the GOP (where they belong),
or form their own party (The Snake Party).

Having them in the Democratic Party is like having KKKers in the Black Congressional Caucus,
or having Nazis run AIPAC.

Get rid of The Cancer.

[Neon Gods]

31. Ha! The thing about populism is - you can't really stop it.

The anger is simmering already and someday it's going to explode. We already have people marching nation-wide protesting policing, we have fast-food workers staging work stoppages for better wages. This is populism already in action and the Democratic Party should be leading they way on these issues, and for jobs and reducing economic inequality! But we know they won't don't we? Because they've been told economic populism is a dead end.

[sabrina 1]

33. They are scared and angry now. They let their mask drop when they wrote that article.

They're angry because they see that the tide is beginning to change, that their policies are rejected by the voters and ironically, the two 'populists' they went after in this article, Mayor de Blasio and Elizabeth Warren, were chosen by the people.

They received huge backlash over that article. It revealed who they are and they are now refusing to discuss it with anyone.

[Neon Gods]

53. But no matter how stupid, no matter how wrong...

...they are, they will never suffer for it. Amazing how the establishment demands accountability from teachers or be fired, and yet jackasses like these are set for life regardless how often they are wrong.

[sabrina 1]

70. Well, not so far. But things have a way of changing. I am looking forward to the day

when the Wall St criminals who crashed the world's economies ARE hauled into court and charged with ther crimes.

They were not only ignored, they were REWARDED.

They have enough power right now to protect themselves, they practically own Congress. But that can change which is why they are so scared and angry at Elizabeth Warren.

[hedda_foil]

34. Different name, same old corporate shell game.

Same crap they've been peddling since 1988, when they called themselves the DLC.

[Enthusiast]

35. Third Way, a Grover Norquist approved think tank working for you 24/7.

Third Way = Republican infiltration of the Democratic Party.

And you thought voter turn out was a problem in the 2014 midterms.

[Teamster Jeff]

39. kick rec

[bread_and_roses]

42. And of course it's published in WSJ

K & R

[Scuba]

43. We need to toss these asshats out of OUR party, lift the cap on SS, apply SS taxes to capital ....

... gains and other exempt income. Then we can expand and enrich Social Security which would help almost every citizen (sorry 1%ers) and ignite our economy.

The Turd Way needs to go.

[jwirr]

51. They are full of it. Because if it is a dead end then we are doomed. These are people we cannot

afford to listen to.

[sabrina 1]

52. They are really a Third Party who rather than form their own, chose to reside in OUR Party

It's clever when you think about it. Had they formed their own party, they could not have grabbed the power they have by infiltrating one of the two major parties. The other one was already bought and paid for by Wall St so they chose our Party.

[Cosmic Kitten]

54. Yep, and that is what wedge politics are used for

The 3rd-Way uses liberal social issues to divide.
They pretend to be socially liberal to forward
their economic conservatism.

The 4Gs of wedge politics (not intended to offend)
guns, G~d, gays, girls...
2nd amendment, religion, equal rights, and women's issues.

These wedge issues keep popping up from
the "left", exploiting social divisions.

Not to bash Obama but what who did he think he was talking to?
In small-town Midwest America he said...

It's not surprising, then, they get bitter,
they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people
who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or
anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

BOOOM he just alienated a huge swath of voters.
That works to the 3rd-Ways advantage.

[sabrina 1]

57. It's true, and it's strange that the Third Way would be defended at all by Democrats

once they learn what they are all about.

From what I can tell, they are no different from eg, the Heritage Foundation who are 'moderate' on some issues also.

It might be interesting to do a comparison of both these groups.

[Cosmic Kitten]

61. do a comparison of both these groups...

Any parallels between 3rd-Way dems and Heritage
would make right-wingers heads explode.
The cognitive dissonance would be unbearable.
Missed a golden opportunity debating ACA-Heritage Care

Although that may have cut both ways

Hmmmm? Interesting strategy!

[sabrina 1]

62. I haven't studied the Heritage Foundation on policies. I just assumed they were

a far right, anti Social Programs tool of Wall St. But then I saw something somewhere about their positions on Civil Liberties, I believe, and a few other things.

I am going to check out their positions on issues. I mean the Third Way hates Social Security, so does the Heritage Foundation. So that's one thing they have in common.

Another, the Heritage Foundations isn't too fond of the Left. Neither is the Third Way.

[jwirr]

65. That is exactly what rwers did to the old R Party. I agree they have to go.

[fredamae]

55. Been saying this for years

Finally (thankfully) many, many, many others are seeing this too.
I'm part of the problem as I ignored this growing problem in "my" party since the early 1970's....kept voting for what I thought were Democrats but got "dems" instead.

The irony of "dems" decrying the "sneak attack" on social security yesterday is the perfect example....How many Years now have we been warned what the GOP would do if ever they got into power? 5? 6? 10? And now they call it a "sneak attack". Hilarious if not so tragic.
Now the "dems" are "outraged" while the Democrats who did warn us...are less powerful than ever.

[Cosmic Kitten]

56. +1

What I found interesting was the LACK
of urgency from the Democrats/dems about
how important it was to go out and vote.

My recollection was about the MSM repeating
that the repubs were winning in the polls and
passively promoting the futility of voting.

And look at where we are now...
"sneak attack" pfft

[TBF]

59. Third Way is funded by the Street -

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/12/third_way_senior_vice_president_admits_majority_of_think_tanks_funding_comes_from_wall_street/

Notable members of the Board of Trustees include:

Bernard L. Schwartz (Chairman Emeritus)
Jonathan Cowan (President)
David A. Coulter
Jonathan Cowan (President)
William M. Daley
John Dyson
Peter B. Lewis
Thurgood Marshall, Jr.
Susan McCue
Michael Novogratz
Marc Spilker
Ted Trimpa
Christine Varney

[sabrina 1]

60. And they lie about that also. They deny they are 'working for Wall St'

I am really glad to see all this information coming out about them, their cover is blown, and they did it themselves actually, when they got so scared watching how the people are rejecting their policies, not just here, but around the world.

They USED to be much more careful about hiding their hatred for the Left.

[rhett o rick]

63. Thank you sabrina for your constantly great threads and posts.

[RiverLover]

72. +1 !!!

Thank you Sabrina!

[WillyT]

64. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[jtuck004]

68. When two politician agree, you don't need one of them. n/t

[Waiting For Everyman]

71. They've been saying this about SS ever since the 1980s,

when the Boomers were in their 30s (we too were told "the WW2 generation is going to get it all, it'll never be there for you!&quot , and guess what, Social Security did not go bust and us Boomers are now receiving it, 3 and a half decades later.

It's time to start calling bullshit on this nonsense, and make the Right (I'm including Third Way in that) think up some new phoney objections.

In light of the fact that there IS an existing track record to look at on this way-past-OLD argument, it shouldn't even be considered long enough to need a response.

[sabrina 1]

73. It works only because people don't understand how SS works. Once they do, that lie doesn't work

anymore. The more people who uderstand it, the less chance there is that people will go along with the lie.

Dems haven't done a very good job of educating, especially younger people who these lies are aimed at, about these programs.

[Bad Granny]

77. These Vichy-Dems, who betray every traditional principle with every word they spew, will be the

death of the party. Maybe that is their goal in the first place.

I have rejected conservaDems from the DLCer who sat in Congress (Schwartz - PA13) for a few terms to the traitors who pretend to be Democratic on the state level. No vote of mine goes to someone who belongs with the enemy across the aisle.

These pretend-Dems will not change their views - it is up to us to utterly reject them and their losing and decidedly-unDemocratic philosophy.
If the pukes take over - I really do not see the difference being worth violating my principles.
And certainly not continuing to vote for the (only a tiny bit) lesser of evils.

[delrem]

78. I'm unable to understand your point of view.

Your view seems very stern and absolutist, and I don't agree with the notion that the R's taking over can be passively tolerated, or even helped along.

In your short time here you've advocated for violence
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6089617
"...
By any means necessary.

That slogan speaks volumes about what needs to be done.
Half-assed, peaceful measures will not do it.
Not by a long shot."

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6111505
"Cretins like this are the ones holding up the corrupt capitalist structure in support of the billionaires.
These are the people we have to make sure are disappeared along with the 1%ers.
Without toadies like this propping up the oppressive system, the billionaires would be all alone and more easily disposed of. "

That language doesn't accord with *my* principles. "Disappearing" political opposition is a technique of right-wing death squads for eff's sake! I see no way to a socially progressive and more egalitarian future through violence. Look at what happened to Ukraine after the coup overthrowing democracy. Civil war, bad guys on both sides fanning the flames, arming the sides, looking for the easy pickings. After all the bodies are buried, what's left? Another plutocrat in power?

[Bad Granny]

79. I think you do get it. "Normal" politics, especially as malpracticed by the Vichy-Dems in office

now, will NEVER lead to a "socially progressive and more egalitarian future" that many of us want.
The enemy is too powerful, too willing to do whatever it takes to "win", and too strong with the support of traitors like 99% of the current so-called Democrats in office.

We the people screamed for no war against the Middle East - and we got more wars.
We the people cried for a single payer, modern, healthcare system - and we didn't even get the option of the "public option."
We the people consistently call for better environmental protection, fairer economic policies, a better educational system, and a million other things - we get privatization and profitization and public-private "partnerships" that suck resources away from solutions and deposit them in offshore accounts of the well-connected parasites.

Even on social issues on which the population of this country is decades ahead of the law in terms of legislating equality and fairness, we have not progressed as far as we should have by now (as in, "I cannot believe we still have to fight against bigotry and for justice&quot .

Okay - a question for you. How would you deal with the entrenched, powerful forces of evil (yes, they are) that hold back progress?
Obviously, trying to debate with them and convince them using facts and reason, is hopeless - they are uneducable, and proudly so.
And since they are unwilling to "live and let live" and must impose their values and dogma on all of us, I cannot see how anything short of their elimination will have the slightest chance of bringing progress.

Rabid dogs do not get sane.
They must simply be put down. For the good of everyone.

[delrem]

80. The term: 'agent provacateur' aka 'wrecker'

I don't like using that term, even when it fits.

The goal of a wrecker is nothing other than to discredit a social movement by posing as an idealist supporter of that movement, a very vocal leader spouting (like a parrot, a dictaphone) the appropriate talking points, the appropriate griefs, after which presenting the most repulsive (to a sane and peaceful population) face of action to the public, to the media, and (the icing on the cake) to a few gullible suckers willing to act it out. Think "the underwear bomber" and you've got the picture.

How much experience do you have leading the violent revolutionary faction of the progressive/populist wing of the Democratic Party of the USA? Or of any viable political movement?
How much experience do you have "disappearing" people who you think are obstacles to your goals? What do *you* do with their bodies? How do *you* convince others that civil war and terrorist murder is a good plan, other than to say that you agree with their grievances regards inequality and corruption?

You ask me what my plan is, since I oppose your (patently ridiculous) path of violence and civil war.
I don't have a plan. What I will do, and what people of good will will do, is continue to support a progressive agenda by supporting progressive politicians, helping in my small way in getting their message out, contributing what I can afford to a few well chosen progressive media sites (e.g. Democracy Now) and etc., and by exposing the lies of those whose goal is to continuously push democratic (small 'd') politics to the right, to increase the concentration of wealth and power, and to profit off of wars of choice and opportunity.

I think it should be underscored that in this general sense "the right" is independent of individual political parties and exists everywhere in the social sphere. The further "the right" pushes the Democratic Party to actualize its agenda, means the further that the Republican Party can freely go, without opposition from Democrats, to actualize its right-wing agenda. That doesn't describe a vicious circle, it describes a freshly paved 8 lane highway.

One can see this when reading DU. The home page and GD are a cess-pit of warmongering jingoism with many posters totally dedicated to daily updates of pro-war hate, avidly K&R'ed by many many more. Many of these posters are explicitly supporters of Democratic Party politicians and when the lies are pointed out, this is greeted by a ROFL icon or a "then you want Rand Paul for president!" line, or a "then a Huckabee/Palin ticket is OK with you" sneer. These aren't arguments, they are sighs of contentment from a certain well established cross-party right-wing "base".

The same situation exists w.r.t. strictly economic policy (TPP, wall street, etc.) as it does w.r.t. overt and covert war, not only regarding the right-wing politicians promoted and (albeit lamely) defended. Economic policy and issues w.r.t. war and peace are very much entwined, esp. in the homeland of the Empire, so this is expected.

[RiverLover]

81. Thank you.

Awesome post!!