so--I confess my ignorance.....

[lastlib]

could someone please explain to this unlearned wretch (moi) the significance of the ashes on the forehead on Ash Wednesday? It's very mysterious to me.

[Miguelito Loveless]

1. Thou art but dust, and to dust you shall return

The church’s mind game reminder that you are nothing and they are your only ticket to any kind of afterlife.

[shrike3]

2. Protestant and Orthodox churches celebrate Ash Wednesday too, you know.

[Miguelito Loveless]

4. It started with the Roman church

then they had a falling out. Personally, I am an atheist ex-Catholic, so no bigotry toward other Christian denominations intended.

[shrike3]

5. If you are indeed an ex-Catholic, your comment demonstrates an astonishing ignorance

as to what Ash Wednesday means. Anyway, the rite probably has at least some roots in Judaism and its tradition of reflection and repentance. Given that Christianity is an Abrahamic religion, it makes sense.

[Miguelito Loveless]

6. "If"

Go to love the passive-aggressive insinuation.

[shrike3]

7. Hey, I don't know you. We all can be anyone we want on the Internets

My comment still stands, though. Hope I answered the OP's question to their satisfaction.

[Miguelito Loveless]

8. So, you're default setting

when addressing someone as a newbie on this site is to assume people who post are liars because you disagree with their view?

Also, I literally quoted the Old Testament "Thou art dust, and to dust thou shall return" from Genesis 3:19 as the source of what is said when ashes are applied, and somehow you view this as unsatisfactory.

The you repeat your insinuation that I am lying about having been raised Catholic.

My, aren't you the charmer.

[shrike3]

9. I'm not a newbie. I've probably been on the site longer than you have.

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2020, 06:52 PM - Edit history (1)

I registered during GWB's first term. I was locked out during the great hack of 2016 and just recently decided to re-register on another name, similar. I seem to remember the actual words during the dispensation of ashes is, "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust you shall return." Surprises me you didn't use those words. But I'll take your word for it that you are an ex-Catholic because I simply have nothing else to go on. Strange to me, too, that you'd be an atheist commenting in the Interfaith group, since you have no belief.

That aside, simply quoting the old testament was insufficient, in my estimation, since the original poster may indeed have no religious training and a bible verse may mean absolutely nothing to them. Hence, I thought more explanation was needed. Your original post mostly announced your anger with the church, which is certainly your right and stems from your own experience, likely. But the original poster was simply asking for the origin of Ash Wednesday, not your opinion of the church. btw, the Orthodox Church grew concurrently with the Roman church, dating back to about 33 A.D., so the Roman Church cannot be blamed for "everything" when it comes to Christianity. Have a good day.

[shrike3]

3. Some think Ash Wednesday has its roots in the Jewish tradition of penance and fasting

Which would make sense, since Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. Ash Wednesday, and lent, is supposed to be a time of reflection, repentance and fasting. The ashes are a symbol of death and repentance. Muslims do not observe Ash Wednesday, but they do fast during the month of Ramadan.

[wnylib]

10. I just came across this thread

and appreciate your response to the OP.

I grew up in a Protestant denomination that did not follow the practice of ashes on the forehead, although they do it now. It never made sense to me as a child when I saw Catholic friends with ashes. Now, as you said, many denominations do it, besides Roman Catholics.

Your explanation of roots in Judaism makes sense. Sack cloth and ashes as symbols of penitence are mentioned in Judaic scripture and the Christian Old Testament. Ash Wednesday is the start of Lent, a time for self-reflection and penitence.

[shrike3]

11. There's also a fasting tradition in buddhism

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

And Islam, which of course is an Abrahamic religion. I imagine non-believers would find some value in self-reflection and even penitence in some situations.

It's too bad schools don't offer religious studies. Religion, whether one believes or not, had and has so much influence on culture, and a basic knowledge is a good idea for everyone.

Thanks for your nice reply.

[wnylib]

12. I agree that studies of religion would

benefit people in understanding the cultural role of religions. But I can foresee problems that would come out of trying to do it.

Many atheists would complain that children were being taught religion and would miss the difference between being taught ABOUT religion and being taught to FOLLOW a religion. And, people of various religions and sects within religions would complain about children being exposed to other views.

In my public school, we learned about the Protestant Reformation since it had such a strong influence on European history. Growing up in a Protestant family, I had already learned about it. Our teacher was Catholic and taught it from a Catholic perspective, misrepresenting a few historical facts. Some teachers cannot maintain objectivity.

In my home state of PA, it was law that public school teachers start each day by reading a chapter from the King James Protestant Bible. Catholic students rightly objected. When SCOTUS struck down the law, the pastor of our church supported the ruling in his sermon by reminding people that it is the responsibility of parents and religious institutions, not schoolteachers, to teach their faith to their own children, in order to preserve religious liberty.

But, for some subjects, learning about a religion is necessary. When in college, I did some practice teaching sessions for middle school Spanish classes. It was spring, so my lesson plans included Spanish and Latin American customs regarding Easter. It is nearly impossible to teach Spanish without references to religion since it is so much a part of Spanish history, culture, and language. Numerous Spanish idioms are based on religious stories and customs. Some are Christian and some are Islamic. I was concerned that some parents might object, but the supervising teacher agreed with me on the need to explain the sources and history and said she would handle the parents.

On Buddhism, I had a very hyper, easily agitated supervisor once who started studying Buddhism when she dated a Buddhist. It's one of the few times that I saw a really visible, measurable change in a person as a result of religion.

[shrike3]

13. I am told religion is taught as an academic subject in Europe without any problems.

Different culture, though.

Religions are too much part of the culture wars over here, I guess.

[wnylib]

15. Sadly true about the culture wars. Zealots from all quarters,

both religious and non religious.

I minored in anthropology and enjoyed learning about and comparing various religious perspectives and their influece on societies in both directions, as cultural expression and as influence on cultural practices and perceptions.

[shrike3]

18. I'm glad to know someone else finds religion interesting, above and beyond the "faith" sense. It has

such an impact on human history.

I remember reading about a billionaire atheist who made a very generous contribution to parochial schools in NYC. When asked why, he said, "Like it or not, without the Catholic Church we'd have no western civilization." His opinion, of course. I'm sure others would beg to differ.

[wnylib]

19. To the extent that Xtianity was used

as a conquest excuse, yes, it did spread through Europe as a carrier or co-exister with western civilization. But Western civilization existed before Christianity. Then Greco-Roman gods and beliefs mingled with Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and other Middle Eastern belief systems to produce various early forms of Xtianity. The Roman Catholic one dominated western Europe, with an influence from the others.

I think that people who complain about religion causing wars and genocides often have cause and effect reversed. Many times, religions are genuine expressions of or spiritual searches for personal meaning and guidance on living with others. Political leaders can use religion as an excuse to carry out political agendas.

I see religion in many layers. The most obvious layer is literal, linear, and often historical. It carries cause-effect beliefs that are somewhat magical. Say the right prayers, offer the right sacrifice, and all will be well. When tge formula doesn't work, people find excuses to preserve their perspective, or turn against former beliefs. It's often a child's view of religion that people outgrow and then they reject all faith as childish.

Another layer of religion is an expression of psychological, social, and personal "truths" or truisms about life, expressed in story form for meaning and memory. We recognize both higher and baser sides to human nature. Genesis expresses this metaphorically as man being formed from the dust of the earth and given life through the breath of God. Tribal religions in the Americas, Africa, and Asia have legends or sacred stories about people's relationships to each other and nature that represent the same kind of metaphorical meaning, but we oftwn miss that because we don't understand the spefic symbols in other societies.

A still deeper level offers guidelines for not only interactions with each other, but for individual and social spiritual growth and development that brings insights, inner peace, moral values beyond simple obedience to rules.

There are many more approaches to religion and layers of understanding involved than I want to get into right now. People find for themselves whatever level of belief or disbelief suits them.

[shrike3]

20. Thanks for your thoughts: very interesting.

[wnylib]

21. On a personal level, I stay with

Christianity because it is what I grew up with. Whether I had a natural inclination toward spirituality or whether it was introduced to me in religion, I don't know. But as an adult, when I could no longer accept a literal approach to religious tenets, I leaned toward an agnostic perspective.

The more I learned about the religions of other cultures, the better I understood that religious stories and beliefs are more meaningful when not taken literally. A literal approach misses the forest for the trees. The stories are meant to convey lessons, values, paths for introspection, and ways of living with others. There is a richness of meaning in many religious stories that can't exist in science because science strives for objectivity but religion deals with the subjectivity of personal and interpersonal views.

The traditions and rituals preserve a sense of continuity even though they modify gradually as societies grow and change. They invoke a spirit of awe, shared perspectives and values, reverence and respect for values.

But, they can go off the rails, too, in what they teach as values or how they practice their traditions. Common sense judgment and reality checks on what are the consequences of beliefs and practices are essential. All faiths tend to have narrow, fundamentalist, literal followers as well as moderate and liberal ones. Christianity, like some other faiths, has many branches to choose from and many approaches to faith. There are many paths to spirituality, some religious and some not.

For me, religion provides a community of shared perspectives on living and growing, with traditions and celebrations as guides. It is, for me, much more metaphorical than literal.

[shrike3]

14. Then again, I'm told the course is comparative religion, not any religion in particular.

Which would be a better way to do it.

My husband has no formal religious training, but was friendly with some Mormons and took a religions course at a local temple. This was before I met him. He came away with the sense that most religions say the same thing --- treat your neighbor the way you'd like to be treated -- but all the conflicts come from details that don't mean all that much.

[wnylib]

16. Within Christianity, there are varying

degrees of significance in the difference between details. But it is hard to see the importance of the details as significant enough for the wars fought over them.

Most of those wars originated as political power struggles that used religion as an excuse. Example: Martin Luther's religious reform ideas were sincere on his part, but taken up by German princes as a means of gaining political independence from Roman influence.

And although Luther's religious views came from a serious effort at finding spiritual answers, it seems like the questions were a result of a psychological struggle caused by a domineering and sometimes abusive father.

[shrike3]

17. Sadly, you're right. Political power struggles with religion used as an excuse.

Interesting tidbit about Luther.

The kings of Europe had fought endless wars and depleted their treasuries. They had a whole generation of men who'd done nothing but fight, and there were no jobs for them. Enter the Crusades: the pope was asked for help in the Holy Land, and since the Pope had no army Spain and other nations gladly sent their idle soldiers to save Christendom. Problem solved. So they thought.

[electric_blue68]

22. I had the best professor in college ('70's) for World Religions...

We visited a Jewish Temple, Buddhist Temple, a Quaker Meeting House, Japanese Green Tea Ceremony at Japan House, Dorthy Day's Catholic Worker.
We didn't go to a Mosque but we read The Koran.
Read the Bhagavad Gita.

He, the professor was a Quaker and the College's draft counselor!

(aw, dang, I didn't realize how old this thread was)

[shrike3]

23. Wow. Sounds like a great experience. Lucky you.

I love learning about religions because they reveal so much about the culture.