Religious privilege.

[hrmjustin]

Last edited Mon Aug 18, 2014, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)

I am wondering if people think it exists or not. What degrees of privilege are there?

It maybe harder for those of us who believe to see it so I am curious about opinions on it.


Post 74
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1264&pid=4207

[rug]

1. It pales in comparison to racial, gender and economic privilege.

And in this place, in this time, it's a shadow of what it was.

[hrmjustin]

6. I agree. I also do not think there is religious privilege on DU.

[Kali]

2. I do.

check out your dollar bills. go to a public meeting or most any kind sport event. check out the amount of air time religious "leaders" get to talk about politics (!) and world events.

it is everywhere, constantly. for fuck's sake I have had to vote in churches. I mean nice of them to donate (I assume) the space but WTF? would most mainstream Christians feel comfortable going into a building that made them feel uncomfortable to complete a civic duty? (trying to think of a good example and my strange mind just keeps going to some skeevey dark bar or a swingers club or something LOL)

[hrmjustin]

3. Sanctuaries or church buildings?

[Kali]

18. oops sorry I missed your question

I think some type of large common room? these were modern buildings, not any kind of old historic structures. I don't think any kind of podium/or whatever you call it where the pastor/priest addresses the members during services was present, but there were crosses and other religious symbols on the walls.

I think I have voted in three different churches in my life, and now we usually go to a school (a whole other uncomfortable! LOL, still afraid of the principal )

[hrmjustin]

23. I imagine it could be upsetting to some people, especially those who had bad experiences

with a church.

[rug]

4. Mottos on dollar bills are pretty mild privileges compared to those amassing the bills.

[kwassa]

10. I had to vote in a nail salon.

It made me uncomfortable, as we filed past the customers getting their nails done. It was downright bizarre, actually.

Later my polling place shifted to a car dealership, where we studied the new Chryslers while waiting in line to do our civic duty.

Such is Los Angeles.

[hrmjustin]

11. I vote in my old school and everything looks so big now.

[Kali]

19. wow, I don't think I have ever even heard of voting in a place of business.

interesting. and a nail salon? wtf?

[okasha]

35. My parents also voted at a car dealership

when we lived in the historic district of our city. (That was back when everything was "downtown" and there was only one suburb(!)

I've voted in schools, the regional medical center, a music store, the County Admin Bldg. and probably a few other places I don't recall. My current precinct polling place is the Episcopal Church in my neighborhood, but I usually vote early and catch the mobile polls at my school's library. Last election, they were in the lobby of the art building where my ceramics studio is, so that was really convenient.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

14. What are you complaining about?

The church is simply providing space for a polling station. My parish does so, rent free. I assure you that if you were to vote there, no one would jump out and try to convert you to Catholicism.

[Kali]

15. think of some location that you do not go to voluntarily

for whatever reason (some people won't set foot in Walmart, for example. others might never go into a bar or nightclub. maybe a pet store that has reptiles on prominent display. whatever, just think of some location that makes YOU, personally uncomfortable) and think about having to go there to vote.

no it isn't the end of the world for me to enter church property, but that is one of hundreds of small examples of something that is NOT ME that get ASSUMED to be fine and normal by the majority of the population.

el_bryanto mentioned something below that I hadn't thought of in a while. being elected to major office. are there any self-identified atheists in congress? I have no idea, but I bet it is easier to be Muslim than athiest and get elected in the US.

[cbayer]

16. Do you feel uncomfortable going into churches when you are traveling?

I love going into churches and cathedrals and all kinds of places of worship. I am thoroughly intrigued by them, large and small. But my husband feels very uncomfortable and always sits outside while I do this. I think he is really missing out on things, but he just won't go in.

I have voted in churches before but only in some kind of common area, not a sanctuary or anything. It looked and felt a lot like a school to me.

I'm not sure what would be truly neutral other than a public school, but that can be very disruptive as most elections are during the week.

While you are right that religion pervades our culture and society, sometimes I think we have to choose our battles.

[Kali]

17. actually yeah, sometimes

especially if it is an active place of worship. I get over it, obviously, but the hesitation/urge not to is often present. They are places I know I do not belong.

of course it is not any huge battle, in fact I rarely say anything, but if the opportunity arises - like if someone actually ASKS like this OP, then I figure I will take the chance to express it, if for no other reason than to bring awareness to others. That is one of the problems with any type of privilege - lack of awareness that it even exists.

[cbayer]

20. I think you are right about privilege acting like blinders.

Most people probably don't think twice about voting in a church, so I totally agree that you should bring it to others attention when you have the opportunity. This is true for all kinds of things.

I'm still not sure what would be a neutral place though

[rug]

51. Why?

[okasha]

5. Somehow I don't think the details on the bill

matter to the hungry person who doesn't have a dollar for a Bargain Burger.

Or to a woman or LGBT child who needs bus fare to get out of the house and away from an abuser.

Just personally, I wish they'd get the portraits of slaveholders and war criminals off the currency.

[hrmjustin]

7. Agreed. I also don't see religious privilege here on DU.

[okasha]

8. There's a certain level of privilege required

for the iconography of a dollar bill to become a concern.

And there's certainly no religious privilege on DU.

[hrmjustin]

9. True. I wonder though as a NYer if I don't really see what atheists have to go through.

I come from a family of very lapsed and unbelieving catholics so religion is not very big in my family.

[Leontius]

40. Based soley on my own personal experience of more than twenty years as a non believer

I think about 90% of this atheist persecution whine is BS. During most of the time I lived in one of the most conservative religious areas of the state and was quite open about my view of God's non existence and never was I received as other than someone with a different outlook, never ostracized by friends or coworkers never threatened in any way. Did I go out of my way to show how stupid I thought believers were did I express disgust and how put upon I was by seeing or hearing religious symbols or speech, No, so maybe that's a reason some should seriously think about. I have seen the opinion surveys and read the articles about real threats and ill feeling towards some activists and I don't discount these events I do however doubt the prevalence and magnitude of this persecution of atheists. It is highly possible that I was the luckiest atheist in America and have lived a charmed and sheltered life God works in mysterious ways I guess.

[hrmjustin]

41. That is interesting. I have met atheists on here who say they dealwith a lot of crap and some

have no issues. I guess it depends on your neighborhood.

[kentauros]

56. I feel anything has more to do with how you present yourself

to other people. For example, any time there's a Texas-bashing thread, you'll see plenty that will post how badly they were treated during their visit/stay, or the hell-on-earth they had to endure while they lived here for whatever reason.

All too often, what we learn after a little prodding, is that they presented themselves to everyone with a major attitude. And then they wonder where all that Southern/Texas hospitality went when people were rude in return.

Attitude is everything. Don't be an asshole to people about every subject, and you'll find you can even get along with evangelical republicans

[cbayer]

12. Of course there is, particularly for chrisitians in this country

and for Jews to a lesser extent. Not so much, though, if you are muslim or mormon or any number of other religions. In fact, most recent polling data would indicate that being muslim puts you lower on the totem poll than having no beliefs at all.

I do think it's important to recognize that and be sensitive to it.

However, it's most definitely not a point of privilege in some environments, DU being one of them.

Also, I think where one is on the privilege ladder is determined by a whole slew of factors, some of which are much more profound than religion. Everyone individual is somewhere on that ladder and no single attribute is the reason.

[hrmjustin]

22. Being from ny it is difficult to see it.

I also think it does not exist here at DU.

[cbayer]

24. Well, it might be hard to see because you are a part of that pretty elite club.

I think there is more tolerance and acceptance of other religions or no religion in NY, but I think privilege is still there. Just think of the way the city honors and accommodates christian holidays. Despite the large jewish population, there is no such accommodation made for jewish holidays.

I agree that there is no privilege on DU because the religious that participate in matters concerning religion do not outnumber the non-religious participants. Plus it is pretty clear who is loudest.

Those that claim that there is some kind of anti-atheist agenda or prejudice on the site really have a distorted vision. I would bet that the data would support no such thing if one looked at numbers of alerts and results of those alerts. But the fantasy is fairly well embedded and not likely to change.

Unfortunately, the DU dynamic may keep religious believers from being as sensitive as they might be to the privilege that exists outside the site.

[hrmjustin]

28. Actually in NYC you can't put a manger in a school but you can put a menorah.

At least up until recently.

But yes it is difficult for me to see it.

[cbayer]

31. Why would you be able to put up a menorah but not a manger?

That makes no sense. If a school were banning religious symbols, how could they justify banning one but not the other?

[hrmjustin]

32. indeed! But the couurts allowed it.

[cbayer]

33. Are you sure about this Justin? That just doesn't make any sense.

[hrmjustin]

34. It was contested for years. They allowed trees but mangers were declared religious.

Muslim and Jewixh religious symbols were allowed. This was Board of Education policy.

[okasha]

36. Politicians

(including politicians who are judges) frequently don't.

Glad to see you back in this group. While you're here, would you take a look at my post on possession a bit down the line? I'd like to know what a professional thinks on the question.

[rug]

46. You've been gone too long if you forgot alternate side of the street parking.

The notion of religious privilege on DU is more than a fantasy. It is a carefully crafted construct.

[cbayer]

52. Lol. That is why I had a car for only a few months in Manhattan.

I do think the notion of religious privilege on DU is a construct, though I'm not sure it has been that carefully crafted. It's just a winning whine.

[Dorian Gray]

83. I love all the holidays

that ensure I don't have to move my car. I don't give a crap if they're religious or secular. Bring them on!!!

[rug]

89. I've always thought that alternate side of the street parking is responsible for

the majority of New Yorkers' behavior.

I got to get up to move the fucking car.

I'll go meet them after work. Wait! There's no fucking parking there!

Fucking Jersey plates.

The bastard who took my spot has a Nassau sticker!

Shit, I got to set the alarm to move the fucking car.

[cbayer]

90. I never understood people who chose to have a car in NYC.

Unless you are fabulously wealthy and can afford a garage, having a car makes no sense at all.

Is there anywhere one needs to go that would require a vehicle?

[hrmjustin]

91. Outside the city or to the outer boroughs.

I live in Brooklyn and by a train but other parts of the city is not accessible by public transit.

[cbayer]

99. Well, but you probably don't park in Manhattan for long so

the changing sides of the street thing is less of an issue, right?

[hrmjustin]

100. They are relaxing the rules on alternate side street parking but yes it is a pain.

[rug]

92. Well, you don't want to stand on the el on the 7 line at 3 in the morning with the wind whipping you

[hrmjustin]

93. True but the 7 is now the best run line so they run trains more often at night now.

[rug]

94. Oh, good, I'll be able to survive to freeze another day.

I used to drive a cab out of LIC and after dropping people off at bars and restaurants all night I had to walk over to the el and freeze my nuts off waiting for the train. I had dark thoughts.

[hrmjustin]

95. Sounds like it aas a grueling experience.

[cbayer]

101. I dated a cab driver when I lived in Manhattan.

I have some crazy memories of riding around with him at night. They are experiences I will never, ever forget.

[rug]

103. Are you Jodie Foster?

[cbayer]

104. No, but I have often wanted to be.

She is second on my list after Bonnie Raitt.

[cbayer]

98. I also don't want to be driving on the streets at that time either.

I love cabs!

[rug]

102. I don't know. Manhattan is magical at 3 in the morning.

Streets are empty, bars are still open, the invaders are gone. That was my favorite time to drive around the city.

The FDR, the Harlem River Drive, and the West Side Highway all used to be connected in one unbroken loop. Once I drove around the island three times in a row without hitting a single light.

[cbayer]

105. I agree.

When I worked at Adam's Apple, I used to walk home. There is something absolutely magical about the city at that time of night.

If I ever felt anxious, I would just start trotting, but I don't think I was ever in danger.

[el_bryanto]

13. Religious privilege certainly exists depending on the religion you practice

The closer to a generic protestant faith you practice, the more normal you are seen as being. A Catholic, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and so on, will have to explain themselves and their faith more regularly, but generally won't have too much trouble. Non-Christians it depends on the community. Anti Semitism isn't nearly the problem it once was, but is still around, and I don't know if I even need to mention what Muslims have to put up with. And of course Atheists are seen as inherently immoral and unworthy of public office.

So yes Mainstream Christian privilege definitely exists.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

21. I suppose here in NY I just don't notice it.

[Htom Sirveaux]

27. As has been said in racial and gender contexts:

the freedom to be completely unaware of privilege and have that lack of awareness not affect your life negatively is also a privilege.

[hrmjustin]

30. Yes I can see your point.

[rug]

47. It can also be that the existence of the privilege has been grossly overstarted.

[Htom Sirveaux]

25. Here are a few:

There's a church practically on every corner, so no matter where a Christian is, they can be confident that they will have a place to be with like-minded people and discuss spiritual matters if they wish. Other religious groups and atheists have to worry about whether they'll be able to find a group in a given place.

Christians can wear the symbol of their faith with confidence in public, knowing that there is a very small chance of being socially penalized for doing so. Other faiths take a larger chance.

As per a recent survey, Christians don't suffer a social penalty when marrying into a family. Atheists do.

[cbayer]

26. These are excellent points and worth keeping in mind.

As someone else said, points of privilege often act as blinders.

[hrmjustin]

29. You make great points here.

[okasha]

37. Native American religion is a bit anomalous in terms of privilege.

For over a century, the US government outlawed and actively suppressed us. At Wounded Knee, the Seventh US Cavalry butchered 300 men, women and children who were travelling peaceful to a religious gathering. More than half a century later, when my grandfather held Ceremony, my uncles and older male cousins all carried rifles or shotguns in case the white Baptist folk down the road became "agitated." Dress code for women and kids was "something you can run in."

Now, of course, we're "fashionable." The problem is not finding a safe place to hold Ceremony but fielding earnest inquiries from white wannabes who want to convert. We tend to discourage that pretty strongly, some teachers more than others. (The absolute surest way to get turned down is to claim that "My grandmother was a Cherokee/Lakota/Apache/Whatever Princess.&quot

[Htom Sirveaux]

38. Somewhat o/t, but since you mentioned it:

Is it possible for those "white wannabes" to become legitimate, in your opinion? Or will it always be cultural appropriation?

[okasha]

39. Yes. It doesn't happen very often,

but it does happen. It's not unlike converting to Judaism. There's a fairly lengthy process of discernment, prayer and study with an elder.

My personal feeling is that the Native American spiritual heritage is a great gift, and gifts are to be shared with those who truly desire them.

[hrmjustin]

43. How long is the process?

[okasha]

44. At least a year.

It's very individual beyond that, depending on what the person's gifts and interests may be.

[hrmjustin]

45. My parish has about a 6 month process for baptism, confirmstion, reception, and reaffirmation.

[hrmjustin]

42. Yeah I can't imagine someone claiming Native Americans have religious privilege.

[rug]

48. I can imagine at least three who would.

[hrmjustin]

49. 4 actually. I see them as a group of four now.

[okasha]

53. They're a colony creature.

[hrmjustin]

54. lol.

[hrmjustin]

50. kicking.

[hrmjustin]

55. Did you all know it is not possible to have this conversation here in interfaith.

I learned this in the religion room.

[el_bryanto]

57. What's the rationale behind that argument?

Is it just that we are too stupid without their guidance?

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

58. I think so. We can't possibly use our thinking caps to tackle the issue.

I love how some of them say they coukd care less about this group but seem to be knowing whats going on here.

[el_bryanto]

59. They come over and look around

Can't really blame them for that if they don't create a disruption; some of us presumably go over to the AA forum.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

60. I went there to defend a member but it didn't work out and I won't go back at all.

[cbayer]

61. I'm going to address this in defense of the person who said it.

It is often very difficult for those with positions of privilege to recognize it and it is highly likely that a group of people who share a certain position to affirm to each other that there is no such position in their case.

While it is possible to have a conversation about it, there is a risk that it will be very lopsided and not reflect the POV of those that do not share that position.

Of course, I can't speak for the person who said this, but I think this may have been his point.

[hrmjustin]

62. Well that may have been his point but he could easily have looked at the debate

and come back to correct himself. I think we did fine.

[cbayer]

63. Privilege is so multifactorial.

It's really hard to isolate out a single factor and sometimes a single factor is used as a weapon. That, of course, makes people defensive.

We are all extremely privileged. The degrees of separation among those who are on this site are minuscule.

But it's still important to recognize that some groups are not privileged in certain areas and to be particularly sensitive to that.

The question of religious privilege on this site is bogus, but in this country it is not.

[hrmjustin]

64. Agreed!

[el_bryanto]

65. I can see that argument, but it would be difficult to have this discussion over there

Because to some in the Religion Forum, just choosing to have a religion or to be a believer is an act of self-indulgence. Religious privilege clearly exists (and is perhaps better labeled Christian Privilege when discussing the US), and we need to be aware of how that religious privilege can have a negative effect on our politics and our society.

But if you discuss it in the religion forum, it will just turn to a discussion of how Christians/Believers shouldn't be allowed to be offended when their beliefs are mocked or their characters impugned.

Bryant

[okasha]

66. They don't seem to view that choice

as self-indulgence so much as self-delusion. Given the almost daily tantrums from that quarter, none of them sees any problem with self-indulgence.

[el_bryanto]

69. Well - Self Indulgence might not be the best word

But I do think that they believe that what we believers, even liberal believers, are doing is morally wrong. They often try to cloud this in a smokescreen by pretending that believers argue for governing on religious principals (which we rarely if ever do) and the like. But even when you strip away all the rationales for our beliefs, they still feel like we are immoral.

If you believe something to be self-evidently true (and they believe that the non-existence of God is self evidently true), and then you note that there are people who don't agree that that thing is self-evidently true, than you have a few ways to categorize those who don't believe the way you do.

1. Ignorance - they don't have the information see the truth.

2. Craziness or Stupidity - their brains don't process information correctly.

3. Corruption - they refuse to acknowledge the truth because they see some benefit from not accepting it.

Most believers who spend a lot of time in the religion forum dispel #1 pretty quickly, which leaves them declaring us deluded or corrupt. And I think that's why their arguments against believers take on such moral fervor; it's not just that we are wrong or deluded, it's that we choose to be deluded.

Of course there is a 4th option, and that is to open yourself up to the possibility that what is right for you might not be right for someone else and to respect a diversity of beliefs; but I don't think that option is available to the people we are talking about.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

72. I think it has turned into a sport now.

[cbayer]

67. I was not really suggesting that it should be discussed in the religion group,

only attempting to understand why some felt that this group couldn't adequately address it.

[el_bryanto]

68. Ah no - I understood what you meant

I'm just assuming that those who are criticizing our decision to discuss it here feel that we need to discuss it in the religion forum under proper supervision.

Bryant

[cbayer]

70. That may be the case, but you are certainly under no obligation to

do any such thing.

[hrmjustin]

71. Yes while some would honestly discuss it others would just cause issues.

[hrmjustin]

73. I get there is religious privilege in this nation.

Believe me I do but I don't think it exists here and those claiming it are not proving it.

It just doesn't exist here and claiming it does does not help anyone.

Just a rant for this group.

[hrmjustin]

74. Thoughts on the recent doings in religion about religious entitlement here?

It was said over their if we question them on calling us deluded we are showing our religious entitlment.

What do the members of this group think?

Please refrain from using names if you respond. I am using this existing thread so as not to start a new one and not start issues again.

So please keep it about religious entitlment here at DU.

[el_bryanto]

84. It is a complicated question

Because we don't really know; we know that some atheists at DU and some believers at DU complain of being second class citizens here. I've certainly noted that posting attacks on religion, even in GD, sometimes goes ignored. But they may have a point when their posts are alerted on and regularly face a hostile reaction. So it's hard to say.

Every time one does a religious demographics thread at DU though Atheism and Agnosticism (which aren't the same thing but are often two separate choices) usually poll higher than any individual faith.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

85. The hides can always be debated but I think sometimes they post things in AA thinking everyone gets

what they mean and sometimes juries don't.

They have themselves to blame for that.

GD religion threads always go downhill and turns into lets get religion. That is why the adminx don't want it there.

[hrmjustin]

75. kicking.

[rug]

76. Quote-mining safe havens is the result of privilege.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123026447#post7

Tsk, no respect at all.

[hrmjustin]

77. Yeah I thought they had a rule on that.

Personally I could care less they linked to me. Did you see the next response?

Apparently we can't discuss it without Guidance. And look how we get compared to the klan.

[rug]

78. Oh, yes: "Like asking Klan members if White privilege exists or not."

Exactly like that.

[hrmjustin]

79. But we are the bad guys because we are mean and defend ourselves.

Did you know rug that when we defend ourselves here from the delusion argument we are just tapping into our religious privilege.

Don't you just feel so ashamed rug? I don't know how I keep my head up.

[rug]

80. Oh, the shame!

[hrmjustin]

81. Well rug I guess we should just run to the other room and beg for forgiveness.

[el_bryanto]

86. Yeah I noticed that one too

It does kind of underline the mentality of the Atheists at DU - as do a few other comments. The fact that believers aren't shunned and driven out of decent society at DU is proof that religious privilege exists at DU.

If religious privilege didn't run DU than believers would be ashamed and embarrassed to admit they are believers. Or at least that's how it seems.

Bryant

[Dorian Gray]

82. In the real world?

Probably to some degree. Depends on where you live. In a multi-cultural city like NYC? Less than in the Bible Belt. But, still, I have somewhat non-religious friends who identify as Jewish or Catholic culturally. They seem shocked when friends claim atheism. And that always surprises me because I don't think they spend much time considering their religious backgrounds.

But, then again, I don't know their minds. Maybe they do.

On DU? The privilege of being religious consists of mockery. But, honestly, don't let em get your goat.

[hrmjustin]

87. You can't get a straight answer over in the other group.

This is just plain ridiculous.

We are accused of something and if we defend ourselves we are showing our privilege.

I think this is just a game at this point and I refuse to play.

If someone over there wants a reall discussion I will participate but this has turned into a lets insult believers fest and I want no part of it.

[hrmjustin]

88. so much for religious privilege.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218147328 this was hidden 7 to 0.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=146997 That was left 2 to 5 yesterday. I was not the alerter nor on the jury.

[stone space]

96. Did somebody post the jury results on Htom's poll?

I wasn't even aware that it had been alerted on. I'd be curious to read what the jurors said about it, if anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=146997 That was left 2 to 5 yesterday. I was not the alerter nor on the jury.

[hrmjustin]

97. no I was told over a pm. I deleted the results so I don't have them.

Someone sent me the results but I just felt no need to keep them.

[hrmjustin]

106. Btw I am sorry your post got hidden.

That was completely unfair.

[el_bryanto]

111. I don't know - i hate to say it - but while a tit for tat situation certainly applies

there's no rational argument for the proposition that atheists are mentally ill by virtue of mentally ill, unless you can prove that spirituality is part of mental health (which would be a tough get).

Believers are believers because they have had an experience with something divine or spiritual (I know there are religions and belief systems that don't require that - but I'm talking about the majority here). Atheists haven't experienced the divine, and as such they deny that such experiences are possible, which is why they hold that believers are suffering from delusions.

But there's nothing about Atheism that leads directly to mental illness that I can see.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

107. I notice that even in AA now there is a post that is suggesting things have gotten a bit weird here.

Thanks and I hope things calmed down.

And yes the lurker took the lesson well.

[hrmjustin]

108. And of course it was met with what I expected.

[stone space]

109. Can't say I'm too surprised.

I have a little experience over there myself.

[hrmjustin]

110. And they all know the poster and treated him like he was an outcast.

Just a shame that they weren't listening.

[okasha]

112. Excommunication: it isn't just for Catholics anymore.

Richard Burton did it better, though.

[hrmjustin]

113. I love that scene.

http://m.

#

[okasha]

114. I love that whole movie.

They don't make them like Burton and O'Toole sny more.

[rug]

115. I have another one.