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hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 01:51 PM Apr 2014

Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian?

Kimberly Winston
(RNS) “On the third day, he rose again.”

That line, from the Nicene Creed, is the foundational statement of Christian belief. It declares that three days after Jesus died on the cross, he was resurrected, a glimmer of the eternal life promised to believers. It’s the heart of the Easter story in seven little words.

But how that statement is interpreted is the source of some of the deepest rifts in Christianity — and a stumbling block for some Christians and more than a few skeptics.

Did Jesus literally rise from the dead in a bodily resurrection, as many traditionalist and conservative Christians believe? Or was his rising a symbolic one, a restoration of his spirit of love and compassion to the world, as members of some more liberal brands of Christianity hold?

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/04/16/can-question-resurrection-still-christian/

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian? (Original Post) hrmjustin Apr 2014 OP
I guess you *can* be, but then you would be a Christian that follows Common Sense Party Apr 2014 #1
I agree. I think many Christians have a problem with the resurrection. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #2
Not without adding an adjective. rug Apr 2014 #3
it is a core teaching that I believe in. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #4
I would have included the next verse Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #9
Can you eat pork and still be a Christian? Downwinder Apr 2014 #5
Yes. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #6
That is inapposite. Refraining from pork is not a core Christian teaching. rug Apr 2014 #7
Marcus Borg argues quite convincingly TM99 Apr 2014 #8
I read his blog, Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #10
I am not Christian, so I can only speak to what I have TM99 Apr 2014 #12
Father Bruce Chilton okasha Apr 2014 #20
Yes, there are quite a liberal TM99 Apr 2014 #22
Chilton argues quite convincingly okasha Apr 2014 #23
In a philosophical sense yes, certainly. el_bryanto Apr 2014 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author LostOne4Ever Apr 2014 #13
How do you define okasha Apr 2014 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author LostOne4Ever Apr 2014 #15
I see some problems okasha Apr 2014 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author LostOne4Ever Apr 2014 #18
You've covered a lot of ground here. okasha Apr 2014 #21
Definitely you can "question" it goldent Apr 2014 #16
Paul said it best if there was no resurection then our faith is a lie . Leontius Apr 2014 #19

Common Sense Party

(14,139 posts)
1. I guess you *can* be, but then you would be a Christian that follows
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:00 PM
Apr 2014

the teachings of a really wise person named Jesus Christ, but you don't believe in his divinity or that his message came from God.

I think if you try to follow the example of Christ, if you strive to be more like Him, you are a Christian, even if you don't subscribe to every part of any of the man-made creeds.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
2. I agree. I think many Christians have a problem with the resurrection.
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:03 PM
Apr 2014

I believe in it but that I know plenty of people in my parish that have questions.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. Not without adding an adjective.
Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:08 PM
Apr 2014

It's a core teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
9. I would have included the next verse
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 05:38 AM
Apr 2014

1 Corinthians 15:20, "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died."

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
8. Marcus Borg argues quite convincingly
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 01:46 AM
Apr 2014

that you can.

The central meaning of Easter is not about whether something happened to the corpse of Jesus. Its central meanings are that Jesus continues to be known and that he is Lord. The tomb couldn’t hold him. He’s loose in the world. He’s still here. He’s still recruiting for the kingdom of God.

http://www.marcusjborg.com/2011/05/16/the-resurrection-of-jesus/

As a member of the Jesus Seminar, he offers some wonderful insights on what can be known historically about the man Yeshua and the religion of the 'risen' Christ that followed.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
10. I read his blog,
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 06:33 AM
Apr 2014

And I found it rather confusing. Perhaps if he had better expressed just what he meant by "alive" I would not have a problem understanding it. Apparently, sightings of Jesus after the resurrection were hallucinations.

I must say that I am no fan of the Jesus Seminar. Their stated stances include denying the divinity of Christ, which is simply an unacceptable stance for a Christian.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
12. I am not Christian, so I can only speak to what I have
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 10:22 AM
Apr 2014

read of his and other Jesus Seminar writers as well as their responses to critics.

My understanding was that the Jesus Seminar did not deny the divinity, they were instead simply trying to do as modern as possible critical scholarship on the historical man Jesus. Questions of theology and belief must then be decided by the churches and the individuals in question. German scholarship in the 19th century presented a similar challenge then to belief as the critical level of scholarship on the Bible was raised to a new level. One response is the more modern forms of liberal Christianity and the other was the birth of fundamentalism - a reactionary form of abject literalism. Honestly, I almost see those two sides as two distinct types of Christianity now almost 200 years later.

Borg is a Canon Theologian at an Episcopal Cathedral in Oregon and definitely considers himself fully and completely a Christian. I can only summarize his many writings here, however, I do encourage you to read them yourself. Challenging or not, it is excellent scholarship and Christian apologetics.

Borg, therefore, recognizes the historical Jesus prior to the Resurrection, and a Risen Christ thereafter. He is looking at experiences of Christ as real, not simply as visions or hallucinations either. It helps to be able to read the Koine Greek for the subtleties of language used to describe those experiences. This is a little more on what he means in a response to a critic:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marcusborg/2013/10/continuing-the-resurrection-conversation/

I recognize that Christianity as a religion with as many followers as it has and a history as long as it does surely continues to evolve and allows for many different takes on the central teachings therein. I think that each individual believer decides ultimately for themselves what is historical, what is allegorical, and what is mythological. Dogma and theology aside, I would no more say that Borg is more or less of a Christian than you are. Ultimately you both find meaning and purpose in the stories, teachings, and resurrection of Christ, even if you don't both agree on all of the specifics. That puts you both in a group of believers that share more in common than not.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
20. Father Bruce Chilton
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:04 PM
Apr 2014

supports a very similar reading in his Rabbi Jesus. He's another Episcopalian.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
22. Yes, there are quite a liberal
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 11:04 AM
Apr 2014

theologians who share this modern viewpoint - John Sanford (Minister & Jungian Analyst), Morton Kelsey (Catholic Priest who directly communicated with Jung), Matthew Fox, Paul Tillich, and Bishop John Shelby Sponge come immediately to mind.

I am not familiar with Father Bruce Chilton. I will need to read him now. Thank you for the reference.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
23. Chilton argues quite convincingly
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 12:09 PM
Apr 2014

that Jesus began as a disciple of John the Baptist. James Tabor, who's more of an archaeologist than a theologian in the strict sense, also holds this view. He believes that John and Jesus had a joint ministry until John's arrest.

Lots of good liberal theologians put there.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
11. In a philosophical sense yes, certainly.
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:34 AM
Apr 2014

In a religious sense, I'm not sure. It would depend on what you believe in instead of the resurrection - if you really mean that his moral teachings are evergreen, but that there's no life after death, than I think you have to ignore a lot of what he said. If you believe in a spiritual resurrection but not a physical one, I guess that can work.

Bryant

Response to hrmjustin (Original post)

Response to okasha (Reply #14)

okasha

(11,573 posts)
17. I see some problems
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:55 PM
Apr 2014

with both of those definitions.

The first would include Muslims, who believe that the Messenger Isa was conceived in exactly that way by Maryam, a virgin of the Jewish people.

The second has so much slack in it as to be virtually meaningless. Eg., it could be applied to me (though most definitely not by me) because I see Jesus and Mary as avatars of the divine masculine and the divine feminine, but my spiritual practice includes them only tangentially.

And probably neither one of them would have been accepted by Jesus himself and his Jewish followers, for whom "Son of.God" was a title of the King of Israel. (See Psalm 2, one of the "coronation psalms, : "You are my son; today I have begotten you.&quot In fact some variants of the gospels have those words in place of the better-
known "This is my beloved son. . . " in the
baptismal narratives.

And then, of course, thete are those who believe your first definition but don't follow through on putting Jesus's teachings into practice. Neither Jesus nor his brother James thought that was adequate.

It's a thornier question than it seems to be, isn't it?

Response to okasha (Reply #17)

okasha

(11,573 posts)
21. You've covered a lot of ground here.
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 11:47 PM
Apr 2014

Let me see if I can kinda sorta organize a reply here. In no particular order:

Isa and Maryam are identical to Jesus and Mary. The Quran includes a chapter entirely dedicated to Maryam, in which Isa is conceived miraculously by the spirit of Allah and Maryam's virginity is not compromised. Christians and Muslims would both be included in your first definition.

No, I don't identity as a Christian. I identify as a Native American Traditional. That said, I subscribe to a panentheist theology that fits very well with Process Theology, which works effectively within Christianity, Judaism, Islam and many other faiths. My theology overlaps theirs, but my practice largely does not.

The difficulty I see with accepting self-identification alone as sufficient grounds for
establishing Christianity is that Jesus himself did not appear to accept.it.. "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my Father in Heaven." (Matt. 7:22ff) The epistle of James, Jesus's brother, also stresses action over belief or self-identification.

I'm not so sure Jesus would not accept an atheist as a follower. He accepted Samaritans, a gay Roman centurion and his partner, a (presumably reformed) terrorist who may have been his younger brother, a tax collector who collaborated with the Romans, a pagan Canaanite woman, and a good many other unconventional folk. Forgive me, but an atheist is pretty tame compared to some of those.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
16. Definitely you can "question" it
Thu Apr 17, 2014, 08:07 PM
Apr 2014

If you believe in a God and Jesus' teaching, I say you are a Christian, even if you have doubts about some of the Bible stores. The Resurrection is a big one for sure, but I wouldn't let that dissuade anyone. Enjoy it for what you make of it, and see where life takes you!

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