with regard to the murders in Chapel Hill

[barbtries]

to me it seems there is an elephant in the room that is being ignored because of the victims' religion. it's this: in this country we just reach for the gun. what a fucked up way to handle conflict resolution.
someone's in your parking spot? execute them
mad at your spouse? shoot 'em
loud music? shoot! KILL!
someone knocking on your door? pop that person!

I always think, if there hadn't been a gun...if there hadn't been a gun, all these people would still be alive. Who knows how many suicidal people would still be alive if it hadn't been so easy to die? how many loved ones who fell to a spouse or significant other who was just so pissed off right then and there was the gun and all it took was a squeeze of the trigger.

thanks to the NRA and the media's obsession with Muslims we cannot even seem to address this issue at all in connection with this terrible crime.

i checked out the killer's facebook page. he actually seemed fairly liberal, definitely pro lgbt equal rights, more or less equally disdainful of any and all religion. he also had a portrait of his gun on his wall.

it's this culture that needs to change. well a lot of things need to change. but it should not be that easy to solve a problem by shooting someone. it's sick. and it always, no exceptions, just makes things worse. george zimmerman might argue with me on that point but i'm sticking with it anyway.

we have a government that will not stop warmongering, and a populace so infatuated with guns that many seem to care more for their guns than they do for their families. how does this change?

[Trajan]

1. As a liberal. I do not identify with gun ownership

It isn't part of my personality to own guns ... There is nothing I want to shoot ...

[barbtries]

3. there are people who are otherwise liberal

who seem to me to completely lose that over guns. i have never allowed a gun in my house or had any desire to own one or shoot one.

[billh58]

4. I, and the vast majority of

Liberal Democrats agree with you. Guns have their place in our society, but definitely not in the public venue, and certainly need to be strictly regulated and their owners held accountable for their use.

[enough]

2. I agree. And now it seems to be if they were killed because of a dispute over a parking space,

that means it's not as terrible as if they had been killed because of their religion. In what world can this be true? The world in which access to firearms gives the power of life and death to anyone who wants it, in whatever instant they decide they want it.

So the guy will probably be sentenced to something in any case. But that sentence does not help the dead in any way.

It looks as if the tabu on talking about gun "rights" has made us incapable of talking about reality.

[barbtries]

6. thank you enough

i am here in NC. this happened very close to my work. they were 3 very young - to me, really just kids. they were brilliant. and they were executed. whether or not it is ultimately considered a hate crime, that man made sure they were dead. he should never see the street again for as long as he lives. but still his victims and all of their potential is wiped out forever.

but yeah! it's as if we can understand this act better if it was "just" about a parking space. i deplore hate crimes and don't know if this was one or not, but why can't we discuss just how SICK it is to grab for a gun because someone is parked where you don't want them to be?! can someone just say if this was about a parking space, isn't that an excessive reaction? can we get a discussion going about a culture in which this type of violence is a daily occurrence?

[Leontius]

8. Do you want a discussion about the culture or about guns?

[barbtries]

9. the gun culture

[Leontius]

10. So the violence doesn't bother you as much as guns do.

[barbtries]

12. what a ridiculous statement

the guns give rise to so much unnecessary, and unnecessarily deadly, violence.

[Leontius]

14. So then the guns are the cause of the violence?

[barbtries]

15. if you have a point make it.

could these countless events have ended less tragically if a gun had not been handy?

[Leontius]

17. No I checked and I'm not violating the groups SOP.

It clearly states that the culture is part of the problem and discussion. I happen to believe that an investigation of the culture of violence in this country is clearly the basic point to begin to find solutions to the gun related violence in this country. It is as important to under stand the cause as it is to try to control it.

[Leontius]

19. When I use NRA "talking points" be sure to alert until then .....

[Electric Monk]

20. So, you've mentioned you have some thoughts about solutions to the problem of gun violence...

Please, do feel free to elaborate

[Leontius]

23. It's not just gun violence it's the general level of acceptance that our society has for violent

behavior. If we can't get a grip on this problem and its causes then the game is over. I'll just give one example of a solution to the gun violence problem, a law we had, it was repealed by the Republicans as soon as they got a chance, was a limit of one purchase a month it helped reduce the number of guns being resold and turning up in crimes in NY.

[Electric Monk]

24. That's a good example. That's the sort of law I think most of our GCRA Group members here would back

If a gun a month isn't enough, you're probably doing something wrong or a crazy hoarder.

Some of us will argue that even that isn't enough. 2 months, or 6, might be even better. Why does someone even need 2 new guns a year? They don't break that quick unless you really abuse them. They aren't (or shouldn't be, imho) a fashion statement.

[flamin lib]

40. Did you not notice that you said that guns are not the problem but then cite

a law you that accept as successful that is strictly about limiting guns?

You can't have it both ways; guns aren't the problem, culture is but immediately cite a restriction on guns as successful in curbing violence.

As for NRA talking points you have used the biggest talking point Wayne Lapierre ever devised: Guns aren't the problem, America is the problem. Wayne has used that very phrase in every speech he's given since the '70s. It's not guns, it's culture, it's video games, it's movies or it's mental health. Whatever it is it isn't guns.

[Leontius]

42. No that's not what I said but it is what you want to hear.

The massive proliferation of guns in society is absolutely part of the problem and control of the spread of guns is part of the answer but again you don't want to hear that do you. I don't follow a party line, yours or anybodys, so if you open that closed mind you might be amazed at what you find.

[flamin lib]

43. I only read what you write and so far you seem to be too confused to be

coherant. I can't follow your commentary and it isn't because I have a closed mind.

I surrender. I give up. Walk away and declare victory.

Guns are the issue. And unfettered access to them. It isn't some esoteric "culture". It's people with guns. People who shouldn't have guns.

So, unless you can be more clear on what you think the problem is and what you think a solution is I'm done with this conversation.

[Leontius]

44. I am quite clear in what I'm saying the cause of your confusion seems to be

your blind zealotry and inability to think in more than one dimension so it's best that you leave as that inability just feeds your anger and confusion.

[flamin lib]

45. No, you are intentionally obtuse and bent on

obfuscation. Only interested in being confrontational. If you have something to add, do so. If your intent is to be other than an irritation please explain why the conversation began with guns are not the problem, culture is and now centers on removing guns.

Face it, you got called out for talking out both sides of your mouth and have been tap dancing around it since.

All you are doing is being passive aggressive.

[Leontius]

46. Don't make false statements about what I posted.

That's not being passive aggressive, that's just wrong and you know it.

[Leontius]

22. Then alert away little bill.

[Hoyt]

26. Gunz darn sure embolden some people. Zimmerman and Dunn would have sat in their cars without a gun.

[Leontius]

35. Absolutely they can and do embolden people to act in a more agressive manner.

But you tell me how do we prevent those people from obtaining guns? I've heard the estimate of 300+ million guns in the US do you believe that a ban and confiscation of all those are feasible, can you put the genie back in the bottle?

[Hoyt]

36. You gotta start somewhere. Every decade we delay, another 100 million are bought by yahoos.

We will have to deal with those eventually. I thing the argument that the horses are out of the gate (genie is out of bottle) is rather lame. But the gun fanciers will resort to anything to keep their gunz.

So it takes another 50 or 100 for gunz to become scarce, might as well start now.

[jimmy the one]

39. I like your haircut

leontius: But you tell me how do we prevent those people from obtaining guns? I've heard the estimate of 300+ million guns in the US do you believe that a ban and confiscation of all those are feasible, can you put the genie back in the bottle

No, of course the genie can't be put back; gun control efforts as they exist were only ever reasonably intended to marginally reduce the occurrence & rate of gun related violent crime.
It's about the best we could hope for.
I also think revealing gun lobby propaganda & exposing pro gun hypocrites in the congress & legislatures, is something important to be done. What's his name, Harvey Weinstein last year said he was making a movie with meryl streep exposing the nra, a great idea. 'The senators wife' it is called.
How can 45 republican senators vote down a gun control bill for background checks, & get away with it, when it had 90% public support? They ought to've been fired yet they still prance around capitol hill invoking 'the American people want us republicans a mandate' willy nilly. No penalty whatsoever to them for opposing gun control.
What we need is a recurring tv series which, different themes weekly, would educate americans on the true meaning & history of the 2nd amendment, & why it doesn't pertain to the modern day ability to own guns. How 2ndA is obsolete. How it encourages gun misuse by criminals in the manner the gun lobby propagandizes it. Expose the frauds in gunworld, like john lott, ted nugent, wayne lapierre-head. How many current americans know that president HW Bush resigned his lifetime membership in nra? as did general norman Schwarzkopf? hah, maybe 20% imo.
Expose the successes gun control has had in the cities & states & overseas, & eliminate the boogeyman which the nra paints us.

[enough]

37. You have some way to separate "the culture" of our current society from guns? (nt)

[Leontius]

38. You don't?

[flamin lib]

41. It's your contention that it's culture, not guns.

Bill asked if you can separate the two. You refuse to answer preferring to be cute with the elementary school taunt, I know I am but what are you!

That's cheap and pretty much relegates your discussion abilities to nothing.

[Dont call me Shirley]

5. Mainstream and Fundie media are inciting the attacks and murders on Muslims

[barbtries]

7. yes, and there seems to be an endless supply of

stupid, pissed off people ready to go off at the drop of a hat. way too many of them with loaded guns and an apparent itch to use them on a person.

[Pooka Fey]

11. K&R

[flamin lib]

13. 36% of households have guns.

Of that 36% only a small fraction is batshit crazy enough to do the things we see every day. So perhaps 5-10% of households are dictating to the rest of us what gun policy should be.

Find a Gun Control organization you can support and DO it.

Call your congress critter. Email your congress critter. Write letters to the editor. Make a noise!

That's what the gun nuts do. And it works.

[billh58]

27. Right-wing NRA/ALEC apologists

would argue that since we live in a violent society, gun violence is merely a symptom that is unique to the USA. According to the gun apologists, we should first treat all of the ills of our nation, and leave the issue of hundreds of millions of lethal weapons on our streets to sort itself out -- because Second Amendment, Liberty, Freedom, tradition, self-defense, yakity, yakity, yak.

The fact of the matter is that yes we are a violent society, and we enable that violence by making it easy and even noble to possess the means of quickly killing each other. Guns, and the laws that govern their use (SYG, concealed carry, etc.) have made it commonplace for a deranged individual to become judge, jury, and executioner in this country.

From an article written shortly after Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot:

"Americans are an emotional people who wear their hearts openly. Politicians stir up these emotions by the use of terms such as “second amendment remedies” (by which Sharron Angle meant the use of firearms). The rants of right wing shock jocks, Fox news and the likes of Glenn Beck only inflame an already febrile state. And overarching all else, easy gun law means that where, in other countries, an egg or a punch is thrown, in America people are killed."

https://theoligarchkings.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/america-is-a-violent-society/

The proliferation of guns in our society, and the lies of the right-wing gun lobby (Democrats are going to take your guns away) are a major public health issue that will not be solved by using the lame argument that gun control and legislation is not the way to "get to the root of the problem." Bullshit! Easy access to guns is one of the top problems in our society, and we need to address it head on.

Support a gun control organization, and those Democratic politicians who are brave enough to stand up to the powerful right-wing gun lobby in any way that you can. But most of all, don't let NRA/ALEC apologists (operatives?) pretending to be "Liberals" lie to you.

[guillaumeb]

28. right on the mark with your post

The US as a country always uses violence to solve problems. It has since the first Englishman killed the first heathen savage so the Englishman could establish a theocracy here.

The US has literally never been at peace. There has always been a war going on. Is it any wonder that in a culture of endless violence some individuals feel that violence is the solution?

It can only change when the country changes. How do we change the Empire into a functioning democracy?

[billh58]

29. This is the

"Gun Control Reform Activism (Group)" and that is the topic addressed by this OP. This is not the "let's solve the violence problem in the United States (Group)."

The answer to your comment: "It can only change when the country changes. How do we change the Empire into a functioning democracy?" is that it can change if we start by controlling the implements of violence and make it less easy to kill each other. And that is the focus of this Group. As stated elsewhere, in other countries violence may result in an egg or a shoe being thrown, or a punch in the face, whereas in the USA violence more often than not results in someone being shot.

The need for gun control has already been established by a large majority of this country, and this Group is one of many that are discussing and planning ways to bring sensibility to the gun control debate. We agree that societal violence is a root cause, but gun violence is highly visible, and easily addressable in the near term.

[guillaumeb]

33. agreed

one way to get the debate started is by removing one cause of the availability of guns.

The money that the NRA spends buying politicians from both parties is a factor. Publicly funded elections with a ban on political contributions could be a start.

[barbtries]

30. i don't know.

i don't think it will happen peacefully however.

[locks]

31. Excellent post

I sincerely hope that the gun people will finally see what guns and arms (and their owners) are doing to all of us and our world.

[barbtries]

32. thank you locks.

my hopes are not high at this point in time. sigh.

[guillaumeb]

34. gun owners are a small minority

in this country. The problem, in my opinion, is the gun manufacturers and their lobbying arm, the NRA. Gun sales are big business for the manufacturers, whether to military clients or to private parties.

How do we address the fear that prompts many gun purchases? The corporate media sells fear in part because it gets ratings and in part because some media companies are owned by defense contractors. In addition, many war industries advertise in the media. Add a corporatized media with strong war industry connections and we get all violence all the time.

Here is a nice link about media-military complex connections. Hope it does not further depress.
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/the-military-industrial-media-complex/