The "wouldn't have prevented" gambit on gun-safety laws

[Robb]

(snip)

The families of gun murder victims have received hate mail and death threats; they've been disparaged for having the courage to stand in front of the powerful and say, "No, our public safety laws are not good enough."

Increasing public safety by changing gun laws is about making it less easy to commit mass murder by forcing shooters to pause and reload. That's a terrible calculation to make, but it's reality.

Public safety is about making sure the fired worker with a felony record and a seething rage can't just buy a gun over the Internet or at a garage sale.

And when opponents point the finger at mental health and say "but what about that!" we say yes, how we deal with mental illness needs to change, too. But that doesn't give us leave to abandon our obligation to make our communities safer by changing gun laws...

Read More: http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/sarah-garrecht-gassen-the-wouldn-t-have-prevented-gambit-on/article_14505150-374f-5e77-99c3-89ce5c0bc139.html

[flamin lib]

1. What about mental illness?

5-7 % of mass shootings can be linked to mental illness. 100% can be linked to someone who bought a gun. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Okay, I got that. Lets background check 100% of PEOPLE buying guns. Lets enforce harsh penalties on PEOPLE who traffic or straw purchase. Lets mandate safety training for PEOPLE who own guns.

If you think I'm coming for your guns you're too stupid to own one. It's YOU I'm interested in.

[spin]

2. Anyone interested in the debate over banning extended magazines ...

should watch this video conducted by a sheriff on how changing magazines effects the speed of a shooter.

Two shooters are involved, a man with considerable shooting practice and a woman with less experience. Pistols, semiautomatic rifles and revolvers are shown. Also the chances of a bystander being able to rush and overpower a shooter who is changing magazines is demonstrated.

Feel free to skip the first minute and a half as it is merely text and adds little value.

http://m.

I am a gun rights supporter but I feel that this video is realistic and not necessarily positive for the gun rights group. If anything, it may cause some gun control advocates to back banning the civilian ownership of all firearms.

[Robb]

3. Why do we never see "Christy's" targets?

Also, the runner who went for her while changing magazines -- he absolutely would've gotten to her, I think. In addition to changing magazines, she would have to see him coming, decide to react to him, swing her weapon 90 degrees, aim, and then fire.

I have no interest in the abilities of the "ringer," as he's clearly at the top of his game in his ideal environment -- e.g. about as far from a real-world shooter as I could imagine.

[spin]

6. Actually the "ringer" is damn good but not not untypical of many shooters ...

who have as many years of practice.

The really top ranked shooters are MUCH better, for example Todd Jarrett (I apologize for the quality of the video.)

http://m.

&feature=fvwrel

Of course I should mention Jerry Miculek who is amazing with a revolver.

http://m.

At the range I used to shoot at in the Tampa Bay Area there was a young guy in his twenties who worked for a law enforcement agency who was amazingly fast and accurate with a semi-auto pistol. Once I was in the range lobby when a firearms instructor came off the range to tell the range master that a guy was on the range with a fully automatic pistol. Of course this was merely the young guy practicing with his semi auto pistol. You don't have to have years and years of experience to be good, just a natural ability coupled with a lot of practice.

I do agree that the targets should have been shown in the video in my first post but it could be argued that the main point of the video was to demonstrate how quickly a magazine can be changed.

I also feel that it might have been possible for the runner to disarm the female shooter but it would have been risky.

One thing that is rarely pointed out is that hi-cap magazines are often less reliable than ten round magazines and can caused the firearm to jam. It's far harder to clear a weapon than to change a magazine.

James Holmes' Gun Jammed During Aurora Attack, Official Says
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL 07/22/12 02:42 AM ET

WASHINGTON -- A federal law enforcement official says the semi-automatic assault rifle used in the deadly Colorado movie theater shooting jammed during the attack.

The official said late Saturday the rifle had a high-capacity ammunition magazine which, based on witness accounts and evidence collected at the scene, apparently jammed. The rifle's malfunction then forced the suspected shooter, James Holmes, to switch to another weapon.

***snip***

Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates has said a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene of the shooting in suburban Denver. Oates said such a weapon was capable of firing 50 to 60 rounds a minute.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/james-holmes-gun-jammed-aurora-colorado-dark-knight-shooting_n_1692690.html

[Robb]

14. I don't think it's sound policy to rely on a malfunction for safety.

And having been around the block, I doubt the young man's natural ability took him as far as good training. Opinion. A fellow I knew shot for the State Department before he shot for Sig Sauer; natural ability wasn't the reason, I believe.

Finally, I agree running at the shooter is risky; but it has the advantage of risking only the life of the runner if the attempt fails. The situation will not be made worse. First, do no harm, eh?

[spin]

15. The young guy did have a lot of experience ...

as he had been shooting since he was a child and had firearm instructors in his immediate family.

I see no real problem with rushing a shooter to disarm him. It's better than getting shot and killed without resisting. In such a situation there isn't a lot to lose.

Of course an armed victim could return fire as long as he was careful not to endanger others.

[Robb]

21. And I could be a world champion

...as long as I am careful not to hit anything but the center.

[spin]

22. Some people do have natural ability ...

and with practice can master a sport. For example, Tiger Woods.

[Robb]

23. And if every gun owner were as calm and accurate under stress as Tiger

...shooting back wouldn't pose the threat to bystanders that exceeds its likelihood of success.

Unfortunately most merely think they're Tiger Woods.

[spin]

24. Yep. Hundreds of innocent bystanders are injured every year ...

by gun owners using their firearms for self defense.

Cops who have supposedly excellent firearms training are far more likely in injure innocents than home owners or those who legally carry in public. To be fair police use their weapons in many situations involving far longer shots than would happen to a civilian stopping a home invader or an attack by a mugger on the street.

[Hoyt]

4. Ole Jim spends a lot of time practicing to shoot people. He looks so proud. What dumbass.

[spin]

8. The reality is that "Ole Jim" probably hopes and prays that he never has to use ...

a firearm for self defense. But if he does, he wishes to be as prepared as possible.

He also probably practices situational awareness which merely means he doesn't walk down dark streets with a cell phone glued to his ear like most people do. That alone will enable him to avoid 99% of the bad situations people find themselves in.

Of course you will state that he is fearful and paranoid. I've know a lot of ex-cops who have retired and still legally carry. They have been on the streets for 20 years or more and realize that bad things can and do happen to good people.

[Hoyt]

10. If ole Jim doesn't have anything better to do than shoot targets resembling humans, he's a loser.

[spin]

11. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. ...

However I will point out that you are making a broad assumption about this shooter without knowing anything about him.

For all you know he may spent most of his time target shooting bullseye targets rather than silhouette targets. When I go to the target range I usually first shoot at bullseye targets using my target pistols and revolvers and finish off by shooting some rounds at silhouette targets with my carry snub nosed revolver.

Defensive shooting is very different from target shooting but target shooting is a excellent foundation for defensive shooting. I target shoot at 45 ft to 75 feet and practice defensive shooting at 21 feet and less. It is possible to become proficient in both disciplines but honestly I enjoy target shooting far more than defensive shooting. I find it extremely challenging but relaxing. Some say there is a lot of zen in target shooting and I agree.

[Hoyt]

13. I am not sure Gun Zen exists for most people.

[spin]

16. I agree. ...

Most people do not shoot on a regular basis.

[Hoyt]

17. Because most peeps ain't interested, or driven to guns.

[spin]

18. True. What has surprised me ...

is how enthusiastic most people are when introduced to the sport.

I've taken a number of people to the range over the years. Many co-workers and friends have asked me, "Why are your so interested in shooting handguns?" I simply invite them to go with me one time and I'll let them try my handguns. Often they are hesitant but many have taken me up on my offer.

I can't remember one person who didn't enjoy the experience. Many come off the range holding their target with a big smile on their face and proudly show it to the range master. They then take it home to show their friends and family.

They buy their first handgun shortly after and six months later they have a small collection of handguns and often go to the range to practice. Some go on to get concealed carry permits.

The fact is that target shooting is a challenging sport that takes many years to truly master but any person can become fairly proficient in a fairly short period of time. There's a real feeling of accomplishment the first time you put ten rounds out of ten in the bullseye of a target at 75 feet.

New shooters are often amazed at how friendly and helpful the regular shooters at a range can be. Most are more than willing to spend some time helping a newbie shooter to improve his score.

It's impossible to explain to most people why target shooting is enjoyable. They have to actually try it to understand.

[Hoyt]

19. Some people just enjoy the lethality of the "sport." Lasers or pellets are better for society.

[spin]

20. Actually, I think that your concept is wrong. ...

Most of the people I have introduced to the sport shoot handguns at far longer ranges than would be common for self defense and often they use handguns more appropriate for target shooting than for stopping an attacker.

Self defense shootings almost always occur within 21 feet and the majority within 5 feet. If all a shooter is interested in is developing enough skill to kill another person there is no reason to put a target at 45 or 75 feet.

You must feel that most shooters fantasize about shooting another person when shooting at a bullseye or silhouette target but we are hoping for a high score. I dream of the perfect target, ten rounds out of ten in the x-ring of a bullseye target at 25 yards offhand.

I do own a couple of target grade pellet pistols which while very expensive are extremely accurate. Practicing with these pistols helps to improve my accuracy at the range.

It's common for a shooter who looks at another shooter's target to say, "Nice group." I can't remember one who said, "Boy, you would have blown that fool away."

It's definitely a good thing that we are not a bloodthirsty as you suggest.

But to be entirely fair, I will admit that I am talking about target shooters who shoot on a regular basis. These are the people I know best. Many gun owners rarely go to the range but own extremely powerful firearms. It is possible that some of these gun owners are more interested in using their weapons to kill rather than to target shoot.

[CreekDog]

25. how do you prevent lead pollution from yours and the people you work with shooting lead ammo?

what safety recommendations do you make to warn them to change clothes prior to going into their house (especially if children are inside)?

do you collect all the spent ammunition, where do you dispose of it?

do you shoot in natural areas and leave the byproducts out there without collecting everything associated with your shooting, including the projectiles (or remnants of them)?

[spin]

28. Lead pollution is a very serious consideration for health and environmental reasons. ...

You have to be aware of potential health problems especially if you shoot on an indoor range or reload ammo. It is wise to also remove your shoes before entering your house.

I've learned to wash my hands and face and blow my nose after shooting and change my clothes when I arrive home. I also get my blood tested yearly which is a source for some irritation for my doctor as apparently he has to fill out some additional paperwork. So far the lead content in my blood has never reached an area of concern but is moderately elevated.

I do almost all of my shooting at target ranges where the projectiles end up in a berm or backstop which is "mined" for lead on a regular basis.

[CreekDog]

30. sensible precautions.

[spin]

32. Lead poisoning is far more serious than most shooters realize. (n/t)

[flamin lib]

5. Professional driver on a closed course,

Try this with adrenaline pumping, tunnel vision, people running and screaming. Yeah the Range King looks impressive but even highly trained marksmen lose a lot of proficiency in crisis situations.

Sorry, not impressed with the professional expert in a controlled environment.

From one who knows what it's like.

[spin]

7. I will agree that real life and death situations are far different than target shooting. ...

However training on a target range is beneficial and far better than merely owning a firearm and hoping that you will be able to use it for self defense if you have to.

Also realize that there are other competitive shooting sports such as IPSC and IPDA which can better prepare a person to use a firearm for self defense. https://www.gunup.com/advice/shooter-ready-ipsc-uspsa-idpa-more-explained

[flamin lib]

9. None of it prepares you to have the target shoot back or first but I agree that the

training the better. In fact I support mandatory safety training as a requisite for gun ownership.

[spin]

12. I agree that all gun owners should be required to have safety training. ...

I also feel that they should have to show proof of such training in order to buy a firearm or ammunition.

Scuba divers have to present a card showing that they have been certified when booking a diving trip, renting equiptment or filling their tanks with air.

A Diving certification is a document (usually a wallet sized plastic card) recognizing that an individual authorized to do so, "certifies" that the bearer has completed a course of study as required by agency issuing the card. This is assumed to represent a defined level of ability and knowledge in scuba diving. Divers carry a qualification record or certification card ("C-card&quot which is required to prove their qualifications when booking a dive trip, hiring scuba equipment or filling diving cylinders. Although recreational certifications are issued by numerous different diver training agencies, the entry-level grade is not always comparable. Different agencies will have different entry-level requirements as well as different higher-level grades, but all are claimed to allow a diver to develop their skills and knowledge in achievable steps.[1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_certification

[rdharma]

26. That video 'realistic"?

Come on!

[spin]

27. Having shot revolvers and pistols for over 40 years ...

the most unrealistic part of the video to me was that the shooters were picking up the loaded magazines rather than grabbing them from a belt pouch. Actually this might have slowed them down as they had to look for the magazine rather than simply grab it.

It doesn't take much practice to be able to shoot rapidly and swap magazines quickly. Accurately hitting a target while shooting rapidly is a different matter.

[rdharma]

29. The video was made by a Republican Sheriff who works for Gun Site........

......Talk about conflict of interest. It was rigged solely to prove his pro-gunner argument about hi-cap mags.

Notice how the old guy shoots at a notably faster rate when he's using the smaller cap mags?

And, of course, followed by the obligatory Jerry Mikulek video.

Oh, brother!

[spin]

31. If you want to think that the video was faked to support gun rights groups ...

that is entirely your choice and your right.

It remains my opinion based on my experience that it was a fair representation of how fast magazines can be changed and how fast semi-auto firearms can be fired by people who have some experience and practice. As I stated in the OP:

I am a gun rights supporter but I feel that this video is realistic and not necessarily positive for the gun rights group. If anything, it may cause some gun control advocates to back banning the civilian ownership of all firearms.

I posted the video for those who have little experience with firearms as many seem to believe that limiting magazine size would greatly restrict a deranged person's ability to kill a large number of people with a firearm.

I do support gun control measures that would help to reduce the problem such as universal background checks, stronger enforcement of existing gun laws and steeper penalties for those caught engaging in the straw purchase and smuggling of firearms.

For example, I feel that anyone caught illegally carrying a firearm in public should receive jail time and if they have a criminal record should spend years in prison. In cities like Chicago or New Orleans such individuals often get off with a slap on the wrist and later kill innocent people.

Obviously our mental health care system has problems. I can't understand why a person who has been legally adjudged as having a serous mental condition can often walk into a gun store, pass the NICS background check and purchase a lethal weapon. The NICS background check is a first line of defense against criminals and those with severe mental problems yet many states do not input records to the database on a timely fashion as required. I also support mandatory firearm safety training for anyone who wishes to purchase a firearm or buy ammunition.

We should reexamine of our War on Drugs which we lost years ago. Gang warfare between competing drug gangs in our large cities leads to many needless tragedies. In my opinion some drugs such as marijuana should be legalized as it would considerably reduce the profit motive in dealing them.

Although I support gun rights I abhor gun violence. I feel that it more important to pass effective legislation and properly enforce it than to pass "feel good" laws.

If only honest and responsible citizens were allowed to own firearms, we still would have gun violence but it would be reduced considerably.

What really distresses me is that I feel we had an excellent chance to pass meaningful and effective gun laws in this nation but some who overreached for another AWB effectively poisoned the water.

Firearm sales are at an all time high because many fear strong gun control in the immediate future. A high percentage of these new gun owners have little use for these weapons and little training. I would like to see this nation return to days like the 1950s and 1960s when the only people I knew who owned firearms were hunters, collectors, target shooters and those who lived in extremely dangerous neighborhoods.

Gun violence in our nation is now approaching an all time low but few people realize this. Both sides of the gun control debate ignore this fact as it serves little purpose for their cause. The NRA and gun manufacturers push the idea that it is necessary to own firearms for self defense and the gun control advocates state that the rising tide of gun violence should be stopped by the banning of certain firearms and accessories.

I feel we can do better but first we have to understand the problem and sort through all the propaganda both sides of the debate feeds us.

[Progressive dog]

34. So cool, proves that the more steps necessary the faster you can go

Absurd is right, more NRA gun nut propaganda.

[jimmy the one]

33. propaGUNda film

spin: It remains my opinion based on my experience that it was a fair representation of how fast magazines can be changed and how fast semi-auto firearms can be fired by people who have some experience and practice.

How much experience lanza have? you posted in one scene propagunda where a trained shooter plastered a stationary target which wasn't moving or shooting back, nor was it screaming in terror back at him. The film presented a highly trained shooter apparently trying to get into guiness record book for fast switching guns or clips, which 'could' also be similar to a mass shooter in real life, but more likely not as trained & more prone to average fire & murphy's law. And find out tiger woods score if the crowd was able to start screaming & running around yelling all the while he's golfing.

I am a gun rights supporter but I feel that this video is realistic and not necessarily positive for the gun rights group. If anything, it may cause some gun control advocates to back banning the civilian ownership of all firearms.

To me it demonstrated MORE GUNS MORE LIES.

I posted the video for those who have little experience with firearms as many seem to believe that limiting magazine size would greatly restrict a deranged person's ability to kill a large number of people with a firearm.

Didn't work ON THIS FORUM. Nobody here should believe what spin is spinning in the sentence above. Limiting magazine/clip size would indeed HINDER & in some cases GREATLY RESTRICT a deranged person's ability to kill a large number of people with a gun. Spin takes the extreme case of someone getting 'optimum results' & applying it to the general gunnut population - and as if the ban was expected to be an absolute solution.

I do support gun control measures that would help to reduce the problem such as universal background checks, stronger enforcement of existing gun laws and steeper penalties for those caught engaging in the straw purchase..
Obviously our mental health care system has problems...
We should reexamine of our War on Drugs which we lost years ago...
Although I support gun rights I abhor gun violence...
If only honest and responsible citizens were allowed to own firearms, we still would have gun violence but it would be reduced considerably...

YAWN.

What really distresses me is that I feel we had an excellent chance to pass meaningful and effective gun laws in this nation but some who overreached for another AWB effectively poisoned the water.

BULLCRAP. Take your 2nd Amendment Mythology onto RKBA. We didn't poison the water, the nra threatened to poison republican legislators if they threatened to tamper with nra's cash cows & profit margin.

Gun violence in our nation is now approaching an all time low but few people realize this.

Bullcrap takeII, although you couch it with 'approaching' which is duplicitous. Violent crime rate today is 2.5 times more than in early 60's.