Good LORD, they're out in force.

[Fire Walk With Me]

Earlier today I alerted on a poster for saying I sounded like a crazy homeless person, and it was let stand. Just now I had a post hidden which contains 100% facts, but facts unpleasant to Obama absolutists. And one seriously deranged jury message:

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ordinarily, I wouldn't hide a post like this, since it's really just a difference of opinion, but Fire Walk With Me is such a stupid asshole propagandist that I will hide his nonsense on principle. Also, I think this will go 5-1 against the alerter, since juries are now stacked with the imbecile confederates of jackasses like FWWM, so I want to make sure they get the message that there are still some of us here who think moronic agit-prop like this is uncivil in the extreme.

(Just got called a Koch shill in another thread...they have no idea who their friends are and don't care, and somehow imagine this makes them both attractive and destined to win and lead...) FFS...

Edit: Any bad news means "their" president is imperfect and is not doing the perfect job they need to believe he's doing. Fuck consensus reality.

Edit 2: THANK YOU for the comments and conversation and support. It matters. Regards to all, keep fighting the good fight!

[Just Saying]

1. Win some, lose some.

I think a lot of nasty posts are allowed to stay but it's not a perfect system. FWIW I think I saw that you can alert on jury comments.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. I'll only do it when it's absolutely blatant and useless to any conversation. Which of course is not

a boundary some of them would even consider, most apparently.

"Doesn't make them a club I'd like to join or recommend."

[roguevalley]

101. I am sorry for this, FWWM.

There are too many people whose political memories start with Ronald Reagan to understand what it means to live in a better country with smarter people. I expect to get the slam too eventually.

[cantbeserious]

3. I Appreciate Your Contributions - Please Keep Posting

eom

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. Thanks; I know it means I'm doing something right, but this is what I'd expect from a RW

message board.

lib·er·al
ˈlib(ə rəl
adjective
adjective: liberal

1.
open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

[Supersedeas]

54. same here - let fly

[orpupilofnature57]

4. I hope it wasn't one of the great posts involving the 1%

Both were Comprehensive and backed with fact, two things that infuriate closed minds .

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. That's what's upset them; I was hidden in a Probama thread for stating facts regarding

drone strikes, the unConstitutionality of such, extra-judicial executions of US citizens suspected of terrorist ties (Al-Awkali), 100+ dead children as a result of drone strikes in more than five countries at which we are not at war (168 in Pakistan alone per a count done in 2011!).

People don't want to hear Obama is both a criminal and should be punished for it. Much less SEE it.

I voted for him. I will not support this unConstitutional series of atrocities by ANY president or representative. I am amazed beyond belief that some imagine party unity requires them to unquestioningly follow such actions unquestioningly.

Unquestioningly following anyone is not a sign of democracy.

[orpupilofnature57]

16. Or Liberty, the Freedom to tell the Truth .

[creeksneakers2]

34. That's a very common post

Why did they say it had to be hidden?

[OnyxCollie]

53. Was it a BOG thread?

You can expect to be blocked from posting soon.

Automated Message: You have been blocked from a group

You have been blocked from posting in the Barack Obama group by Cha. If you believe this is an error, you may contact Cha for more information.

I made a post about the State Dept pressuring Haiti to keep the minimum wage down to 31 cents. That was enough to get me blocked.

It's a fact-free fluff(er) zone.

[Fire Walk With Me]

62. :) I've never posted there although it's SOOOOO tempting. It's unbelievable.

Standard post: "Think GOOD thoughts"...

[OnyxCollie]

72. I didn't realize it was a BOG thread when I posted.

No adult talk at the kiddie table. It upsets them.

[truebluegreen]

75. I think I only posted there once, by accident--

it was cross-posted in GD I believe--and got banned. LMAO!

Keep up the good work. I and many others appreciate it.

[Enthusiast]

84. I'm with you.

Many others.

[cui bono]

95. And yet those are the same people who call anyone criticizing the NSA

Teabaggers on the left, or firebaggers.

Talk about irony.

[DrDan]

108. same DUer blocked me for a "multi-dimensional chess game" post - it was about a

1-line long post.

It's quite a sensitive bunch that hangs out there.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

162. In the BOG, a person can be blocked if they say something positive about a position taken by Obama -

a position taken by the 2008 Candidate Obama.

Apparently, for some reason, that can be taken as criticism of President Obama.

Been there, done that.

[Fire Walk With Me]

170. I remember that guy, the 2008 Obama for whom I voted. Wonder what happened to him. ;) n/t

[emsimon33]

83. As Democrats, I would hope that we would not follow blindly

I, too, worked hard for Obama's first election and vote for him a second time although I did agree with some of his selections for positions in the government and some of his actions.

If a Republican were behind the drones, Larry Summers, etc., we would be screaming bloody murder as Democrats. As it is, the national party too often discounts us ("Who else will they vote for?&quot . We need to be the moral compass and not simply support an elected official's actions simply because that official is a Democrat.

[DontTreadOnMe]

6. Yes, the "alert system" is starting to become stacked

I was attacked as being transphobic because I pointed out the FACT that Bradley Manning will not get hormonal treatment in military prison, even if I supported the idea that Manning should get the treatment if not paid by taxpayers.

Oh wait, I am transphobic for not calling her Chelsea too!

The alert system is broken, always has been. It randomly picks people to be on the jury, and they get to vote based on their prejudices.

Some guy got off for murder in Florida under a similar situation...

[Mz Pip]

71. It isn't perfect

But it's the best we've got.

I'm usually hesitant to HIDE IT unless it's obvious trolling or a nasty call out. We have an IGNORE function, a HIDE THREAD function and policing against hurt feelings or differences of opinion aren't part of being on a jury. That's my opinion, and that's how I judge an alert.

[emsimon33]

85. I agree with you

But I have seen longtime DUers called trolls by a member who has requested that a post be hidden when the post merely states the person's opinion and he/she has presented facts to support that opinion.

I am not sure why some of us are so touchy right now.

[n2doc]

7. They are desperate. Keep the posts coming. n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

9. Thanks. These are facts; we shouldn't even be arguing them, much less shouting them down

in any president or party's name. Peace.

[Skittles]

10. Juror #5 is a f***ing COWARD

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. Thank you Skittles.

[emsimon33]

86. Actually, having presented such an inappropriate explanation, Juror #5 should be banned from ever be

[MotherPetrie]

12. K&R for you

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. Thank you. n/t

[brer cat]

14. That juror needs to get an alert.

No excuse for a comment like that.

[Fire Walk With Me]

15. Thanks. I've posted it in the ATA section. n/t

[cui bono]

44. What is ATA? n/t

[OnyxCollie]

56. Ask the Administrators.

[pacalo]

74. Good. DU doesn't need jurors who vote for/against someone "on principle".

[juajen]

50. I agree.

[emsimon33]

88. I agree. The explanation was way out of line

[Mnemosyne]

17. I am sorry this happened, FWWM. Place has definitely changed in the last 10 years,

and not mostly for the better either.

You are one of the posters I admire and appreciate the most here. You walk the walk!

[alittlelark]

18. KnR .... I had a similar experience

last week

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. Sorry to hear it. I can't believe we'd have such trouble in an "underground" forum. n/t

[niyad]

20. k and r--some of us appreciate the information and insight you bring.

to juror #5 (since it appears you go looking for the OP's posts): thank you for the best laugh I have had so far today.

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Thanks. Not "democratic" much, is it?

[niyad]

28. not democratic, not rational, not logical--just pure nonsense. will be fun to see if juror 5

has the nerve to post any time soon.

[Nay]

59. No, not democratic, and I among others have noticed that DUers, over the years, have

seemed to lose their ability to separate truth from bullshit once the prez had a D behind his name. I voted for Mr. Obama twice, but I've been seriously disappointed in the guy. Also, a great number of DUers seem to have trouble with logically parsing out an issue (any issue, not just Obama stuff) and reacting with rationality and common sense to the issue. I have to wonder if DU has been permanently invaded with trolls, because this is how trolls behave.

Anyway, I appreciate your contributions to this site.

[Fire Walk With Me]

65. Thank you, and I fear that you are correct. n/t

[Blanks]

202. I think that some here speak a little too harshly of Obama.

For a couple of different reasons.

1) When Obama had a democratic controlled congress he tried to do the work of the people (health care reform, banking regulations, alternative energy agenda).

2) There was a lot of inertia going in the secret government direction, and the president had to focus on keeping the economy afloat. As a result there are a lot of secret government buildings still under construction (which represents a lot of spending on the secret government), but it would not be prudent to leave a bunch of buildings unconstructed, and structures can always be repurposed.

3) This government was designed to limit the amount of change that one individual can make and especially when that individual does not have 'friends' in both houses of congress.

So, I think a lot of the 'beating up on the president' is unwarranted and a little unfair.

Could he do a better job? Absolutely. Would he do a better job if he had a democratic controlled congress? I think he proved that right out of the gate. Should we be critical of him? Of course, but there's a line between being critical of the president and bashing the president on matters that he has no control over.

It isn't the same to say that someone 'supports the president no matter what' and to say that 'he's doing the best he can under the circumstances.'

That isn't even taking into account that the main stream media is owned by the military industrial complex at a time when he's basically ending two wars and trying to stay out of any other wars. Anyone who gets their news from television gets an anti-Obama slant.

I think the president is doing the best he can under the circumstances.

[Hydra]

21. They're getting very desperate

I got an education today confirming something I feared. these people are true RW, regardless of what they are calling themselves. I thought this was knee-jerk defense of the Obama admin, but it's something deeper and more ugly- it's blind obedience to the security state.

Stay with it- the truth burns them. You may never convince them, but the people visiting DU need the information and background/legalities of it. Minds are being changed, and the masks are coming off. It's a scary and exciting time.

[Fire Walk With Me]

24. Agreed- the RW mentality is here :( Peace...

[DJ13]

39. these people are true RW, regardless of what they are calling themselves

Of course they are, creating two right wing parties was the main goal of both the DLC and the (new! improved! NOT DLC!) Third Way.

The 1% wins when the people have no real choices.

[Hydra]

40. When doesn't the 1% win?

But yes, it just surprised me to see them write it out in more or less plain engrish.

[DJ13]

52. I bet a majority of Obama voters in 08 thought the 1% wouldn't be the winners when he won

The disappointment felt by them is also whats behind some of the criticism he now gets here on DU.

Looking back, you're right, they always win.

[Hydra]

57. I'm sure you're right

But that was pre-OWS, and the 99% thing was not well felt.

The "Not Bush" thing WAS felt though...and it was entirely wrong. I considered the inauguration ceremony to be the declaration by the President of "No, I am not one of you people. I'm one of the elite now. No, I do not stand with the LBGT community, I am a conservative religious person. No, I am not going to prosecute Bush or Cheney, they are my people now."

Too bad he's wrong- he's not part of the elite, he's their lackey. He'll be kissing their ass and taking crap from them forever, just like Bill Clinton.

[DJ13]

61. I'm if full agreement

Well said.

[Enthusiast]

91. Voluntarily extended the Bush tax cuts.

He used the very weak excuse of extended unemployment benefits. It's been bullshit from day one.

[Fire Walk With Me]

92. And he made some of them permanent in the "Fiscal Cliff" scam. n/t

[Enthusiast]

89. You are exactly correct.........nt

[Enthusiast]

87. But many are employees.

That's just a fucking fact.

[emsimon33]

90. Well said!

Times are changing and the old is falling away. Those who have held power are fast losing it. The detoxification is bringing a lot of ugly to the surface.

[Ocelot]

186. New here as a poster

But have been reading/lurking here fairly frequently for a long time, and the tone of the divisiveness seems to have changed over the past couple of months. Seems like in the past the conversations were more about passionate exchange of ideas, but now this site seems to have been infiltrated by very right-wing posters. They usually respond near the top of a well-thought out OP and, instead of arguing it sincerely or rationally, throw around glib remarks and muddy the waters of conversation until the top of the comments is filled with a bunch of nonsense. This distracts greatly from the OP's in my opinion.

One other thing I'll mention: I ALWAYS read comments hidden by jury decision, good or bad.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

23. What an asshole.

That juror should step up, identify themselves and own it.

(And thanks as always, for all the info you post.)

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. Thank you; I appreciate your contributions as well! n/t

[dtom67]

31. the juror was probably a real pro......

At least that the sense I get......

[Jackpine Radical]

152. Cha-ching. Sheesh!

Was that a random guess? I bet a pretzel you're arely likely to be climbing on the wrong staircase here.

[dtom67]

157. not a real guess...

after all; anonymous is anonymous.

just a " one-off " originating from the land of snark.

And what is it with Pretzels these days? why are the all being made into Sand wich buns?

The answer must be blowing in the Wind. Its enough to send a Warrior to the Pwn shop.

( Must remember to call Mother )

[Jackpine Radical]

159. Pwned.

[Fire Walk With Me]

171. :D

[dtom67]

172. I am the Leser of two evils....

[FirstLight]

25. you know what they say...

[Fire Walk With Me]

29. Thanks! Some of them are actually a bit frightening :(

[Control-Z]

46. Heh!

Good one!

[dtom67]

27. I've tried to lay off of the President...

because I know I'll get a ton of knee-jerk defensive reactions from those who still have faith in the System. It is now almost impossible to do so, as there seems to be a concerted effort to get a lid on any dissent here. I hate republicans and the so-called libertarians ,too. The Libertarians sound good, until they start talking about extending liberties to the corporations, which amounts to letting them do as they please.

You must be hitting a nerve. I do not know how they can keep trying to cover the President, when we have new information daily about abuses and overreach.

I don't think the juries are stacked with us "jackass confederates"; I haven't been on a jury in months!

I think the key thing to remember is that we are not here to change the minds of those that attack us; we are here to provide an alternative to the Party line. Honest opinion will always have value. I also believe that opinions on the Web are noted by some in the Party, so it is important to speak out if you have a dissenting opinion.

gotta go; keep up the good work....

[Fire Walk With Me]

30. Thanks; agreed and agreed and agreed again! n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

151. Truth doesn't have a side, your right .

[cui bono]

32. That juror should be tombstoned.

They broke DU rules in their reason and they abused their power.

Gotta love that they are calling you uncivil in that explanation. Whoosh!

[grasswire]

35. so this juror admits prejudice against you

...and says he will alert you just because of your "nonsense"

That juror should be struck from the pool. Is there no way to judge the jurors who exhibit bias and bigotry?

[Fire Walk With Me]

117. At first they're honest and learn it's a mistake, then use cannier methods. :(

[ZRT2209]

36. I've received messages from assholes like that as well

Why does DU allow that sort of verbal abuse from a juror to another DU member?

[Fire Walk With Me]

118. There must be a very fine line between free speech and censorship or something;

I've neither run nor administrated a website or similar but I've seen enough heads beating against each other bloodily to know that such is the nature of communication when enough is at stake. I have no idea how to manage it if the participants do not wish to be manageable, but not simultaneously be so far outside of acceptable that they can be removed.

[markpkessinger]

37. They can try to suppress the truth . . .

. . . but they WON'T succeed! Hang in there, FWWM!

[Fire Walk With Me]

119. Thanks Mark; trying to rise above. Solidarity! n/t

[DeSwiss]

38. FWWM, there are those like Winston Smith for whom the sturggle is over......

...they now love Big Brother and will do anything, even discharge any principles that they once may have held, to keep that love intact. They fear chaos and love Big Brother's harsh order because they think that it will keep the chaos at bay. Chaos is defined here as anything that the system hasn't ordered or approved of, like flowers blooming, birds singing and people being free.

- Do not concern yourself over the acts of frightened children. Even they will one day soon, have to open their eyes to TRUTH and grow up.

K&R

[Fire Walk With Me]

120. Great observations and I agree. People cling to known structure in both political parties

as well as via religion. Having had some fear in my own life as well (understatement) I can understand and sympathize but when it comes down to interfering to the positive course of the nation, it's a problem

[wtmusic]

41. Maybe one day we'll be able to alert on a jury member.

#5's comment is one that would eliminate a juror from consideration for a court case in a heartbeat.

[Fire Walk With Me]

121. Definitely agreed. It's an idea very worthy of consideration since Meta passed. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

160. You can alert on juror comments and in this case fwwm should do so.

[wtmusic]

163. Thanks, didn't know that.

[Drunken Irishman]

42. Aww.

I think this may be the first time I've ever had a post solely devoted to me.

Yay!



FWIW, I was not the juror. I was the one who made the post he was alerting on. Why did I make it? Because the OP was yelling at Obama for signing the student loans bill because it raised interest rates by .4% ... but constantly ignored the fact that if he didn't sign it, interest rates would've risen much larger had he done what the poster wanted (hint: not sign it). It was a disconnected post. I made a comment, he came back with a bunch of useless links that had nothing to do with the topic and that's when I said he was ranting like that.

[NYC_SKP]

79. Well, you know how it goes.

At DU it's easy to get in with the in crowd by demonstrating how disappointed you are with the POTUS.

By itself, it's not so bad, but when it's done with the ignorance of the reality of the situation, like the fact that we have a CONGRESS to deal with, then it looks very amateurish and pathetic.

This thread is now full of the typical suspects who are silent most of the time but when an Obama bashing post pops up, or a us versus them thread is available, well there they are!



How ya been?

[cui bono]

96. So how do you feel about Juror #5's explanation? n/t

[NYC_SKP]

97. Pathetic, rude and mean. I'd pull their juror eligibility. I like the DU member Fire Walk With Me.

But I also think we have zealots.

And I think this OP is whining about DU and should be locked, but unless someone else alerts on it I'm not going to give it the time of day.

I think that purging our emotions from time to time isn't a bad thing.

[cui bono]

100. Thanks for your honest answer.

Do you also believe there are zealots that can't stand to hear any criticism of Obama and will defend him no matter what he does? And that they have their own "in crowd"?

I agree with the purging of emotions. And I rather agree with not having these types of divisive OPs. This one however, highlights the ugliness of that juror so I feel it needs to be seen. But in the past I have alerted on any of these us vs. them OPs whether or not I agreed with the poster's sentiments or not.

I really wish there was less of this us vs. them mentality on here. But from the first post of yours that I replied to I take it you think it's due to the Obama critics and I think it's due to the Obama loyalists. If this board were better moderated none of that in any shape or form from either "side" would be allowed to stand. It would be a big undertaking though, as there is a lot of activity on here.

[NYC_SKP]

102. I think we agree more than disagree.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around for DU discord, Obama supporters and critics alike.

Many supporters don't venture into GD at all, and others have left altogether. Nance Gregg and JeffR, former DU fixtures, don't come around at all anymore.

In any event, I don't know if juror #5 was legit, doesn't sound like anyone I know, and it's an abuse of the jury system and it happens a lot!

[Drunken Irishman]

106. I've been beenin'! haha.

It's funny how the anti-Obama-ers will attack without even knowing what they're attacked.



How've you been?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. I supported Kucinich so I know how you feel.

[Fire Walk With Me]

124. (chuckle) :)

[The Wizard]

45. The jury system as it stands

allows for trolls and disruptors to cut off honest conversations. Sometimes it's like McConnell has infiltrated DU.

[Fire Walk With Me]

126. They added Unrec, they killed Meta, they've polluted the Jury system...

Perhaps they should come to realize that this in and of itself is a Problem deserving of reflection and positive solution. "Do what we say or else" IS the problem.

[zeemike]

47. J would bet that if you could know.

Juror #5 has served on hundreds of jurys...and interesting that he feels bold enough to tell you how biased he is...as if to stick a thumb in your eye.

It is only a theory of mine, but I think they know how to rig the system....I can't tell you how they do it because I am just one step up from a computer idiot, but this is not the first time I have seen this happen.
And I think there is a small but dedicated group that is here to cause trouble among us and to keep us at odds with each other...

But just know that we care about you and appreciate all that you do here...and don't let them get under your skin.

[Fire Walk With Me]

127. Thank you very much. My skin is not incredibly thick and I doubt I'd like myself much if it were.

Interesting point that they're attempting to rig the jury system. I can see that as a definite possibility. This is not Democracy!

[Rain Mcloud]

48. If I may make an observation

The RW is losing its collective mind and the zealots need some where to go,being dispossessed.
They appear to be coming here in attempt to push the liberal ideals further towards the right that they are fleeing.
Our President is also moving further to the right and dragging the faithful with him.
The further right the BOGer's go,the more they act like conservative zealots i/e:
Intolerant,Close minded,Homo and Transphobic.

The worst part is that President Obama is the best we have all things considered.
I just wish we had Candidate Obama back before he was perverted by JP Dimon Chase.
Yeah,go ahead and throw an alert on this post for trashing the Lickspittle in Chief.
I've been thrown out of nicer places then what DU has become.
It's no skin off my sac.

[Fire Walk With Me]

128. As there are trolls here from RW message boards, certainly there are those here simply to

create dissent. Those such as Juror #5 who blame me for exactly that don't get that I'm not one of those; I've been here for years and voted for Obama. I'll call bullshit on any representative who deserves it, period. Occupy is about naming and changing the problems we face and in =my= opinion (I do not speak for Occupy), Obama has made himself an enormous problem directly along the lines of what we've already named and decried. This may be difficult for party members to face but it IS possible to unify and to do something better, such as rallying around FDR "New Deal" and "Second New Deal" values (which unfortunately are against Obama's financial decisions and the will of those he blatantly supports).

It can be done. Peace.

[Rain Mcloud]

161. I am sorry for what they done to you,Bro.

Alternative viewpoints from freethinkers will always be perceived as a threat to those in positions of power regardless of whether they earned those positions or were ordained by Moses in the Torah(Old Testament).
If an idea is very good then they have to be introduced to it kicking and screaming,they will fight tooth and nail to obstruct it but when it surpasses all expectations,then it was their idea all along.
Judging by their hostility,you almost have them to a glimmer of cognition.
Keep driving the train,eventually they will arrive.

[2naSalit]

49. I usually make a point of reading your posts

because I know that I will learn something or find that I am not the only one who understands a certain condition of our world. Carry on and don't look back too often.

[Fire Walk With Me]

129. Thanks; I appreciate it. Best to you! n/t

[L0oniX]

51. More evidence that the jury system is fucked up. The irony of jurer 5. Jurer 5 should be alerted on

Jurer 5 "Fire Walk With Me is such a stupid asshole propagandist" That is a blatant violation of the rules. Freaking clown jury system.

[railsback]

76. Rules, LOL

I get called an asshole all the time, and no one seems to think that's a violation. The system isn't 'fucked up'. Its the participants.

[RC]

112. The jury system can be manipulated.

There has been a another extremist group around here that used to do it. All it takes is an understand how the Jury system works and some friends. DU has its share of one issue fanatics. Reality, truth and facts do not persuade them.
There was another group, up until a few months a ago doing this. A couple of high profile people left and things settled down for a while. Now another group is rising up to full th vacuum.

Part of the answer is to be more selective on who can be a juror. But basing it on the number posts hidden will only make things worse, as the attack on Fire Walk shows.
I have an answer, but it probably won't fly very well and I am not in charge. But what do I know? I am a Left of Center Liberal, who knows FireWalk With Me, is one of the more mature, thoughtful members of DU. Unlike those who attack us for not being fanatical enough on their single issue du jour.

[L0oniX]

113. Jury transaparency. Remove the anonymous Jurer 1-6 , use DU member names and watch what happens.

[RC]

114. I can see the fanatics adding to their list of enemies with that, for later pile ons.

But I do see your point. Something needs to be done. There needs to be a way to remove the one issue fanatics from the Jury pool, or better yet, even some from DU itself. I'm sure we both have overlapping lists.
There are a few of high profile Conservatives here, both foreign and domestic, dragging DU to the Right.
Hiding posts of long time members, for stating provable facts, with links is beyond the pale. Something needs to be done.
Democratic Underground used to be just that. Now it is turning into Right-wing spin site, where you are supposed to toe the line of whatever group that demands it. Fuck that. I, for one will continue to post my opinion regardless of what they think.

[L0oniX]

115. Add a "alert on a jurer" feature where the jurer can get banned from duty.

[RC]

116. That would be a good start.

Needs something about violation of DU's written rules. Not some bullshit where somebody decides for themselves DU'ers will do or not do, as the jury system was set up to do.
An example would be, "DU does not use that word". Ahh, yeah we do. That's why you're upset.
Another being the posting of something about Obama or Hillary or both, that is not out and out praise. "How dare anyone not hold them in reverence" Ahmmm... Because they don't deserve it on a Left leaning political message board?

[Fire Walk With Me]

130. I agree that things are unDemocratic and that if user names were included, it would be different.

DU is as much of an experiment as Democracy itself. Skinner and crew try, that is definite, but human nature always steps in (should I say, steps in it). Peace!

[Phlem]

55. I appreciate your posts

and don't let them win. They want to drown us out, I'v been noticing in some threads. They pretty much attack on site. Don't under estimate us, we are many, so don't stop posting.

peace

-p

[Fire Walk With Me]

131. Thank you for the support and your work towards maintaining the presence of all voices

versus just "theirs". Which is Democracy. Peace.

[truth2power]

58. Methinks that Juror #5 protests too much...

Hmm...Why slather on so many epithets? stupid, asshole, propagandist, imbecile, jackasses, moronic...

I smell cognitive dissonance.

[Fire Walk With Me]

132. Perhaps :) There is a definite, orchestrated attempt to "weed out" the voices of which they do not

approve, and it would appear they are taking note of what upsets some of their targets. In other words, I experienced several ad hominen personal attacks yesterday and imagine they will continue. Watch for how they come after each of you. Peace!

[truth2power]

155. Yes, the name-calling does get to some people. I wouldn't even bother alerting on it, though...

I just consider it to be juvenile ranting by those who are having their belief systems challenged.

I know what I see of Obama's actions, and I know what I hear/read of his remarks. I will repeat what I've said ad nauseum here - when a colleague approached me in early 2008, expressing great excitement about Obama, I said, "He makes all-purpose speeches".

If you listen closely to what he says, or better yet, reduce it to text, you find it's mostly weasel-words and fluff. The most recent example being his promise to look into the NSA scandal and then appointing a liar and some other miscreants with conflicts-of-interest to report the results. Jeebus!

It approaches farce, just watching some people try to spin this.

[Demeter]

60. Skinner got what he wanted, IMO: an echo chamber of BOG

DU isn't what it was, and definitely not what it COULD be.

I cannot wait to see the place in 2016. Whatever will all these programmed posters do for a living/entertainment/thrill? Need I mention, the moderators are as bad as the alerters?

There is no truth too ugly to hide, dismiss as rw propaganda, or reject as "opinion", if it reflects badly on Obama. He really is revealed as our answer to Nixon.

Ignoring a truth because one has prejudged the speaker is pretty darn foolish, but it happens all the time. How can one make a majority by cutting off 47% of the population? We need to make a 99% coalition, if we are to save this country from its would-be Masters. This bunch of cultists would rather democracy died, than admit to imperfection and room for improvement, let alone outright crime.

[snappyturtle]

66. Hear! Hear! nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

133. I'm really hoping you're wrong about Skinner and his plans for the forum. I hope that it is terribly

obvious, and obviously terrible, what occurs when the single voice wins out, especially when it is one stridently ignoring the actual problems we face. Party unity does not need to revolve around traitors to the party's own values, in order to prosper and win. This is imperative. Also, to purposely shut out those seeking to HELP, who post facts so that the issues may be faced, addressed, and solved, is not only self-defeating, it is undemocratic. To represent a small portion is to negate the root definition of Democracy: The Will and the Voice of the People.

Doesn't mean you have to cater to trolls but as much as they'd disagree, I'm not a troll. I'm attempting to gather action towards problem-solving. Peace!

[limpyhobbler]

63. Some people can't handle the truth.

They just want to smear the messenger and bully people into shutting up.

[Fire Walk With Me]

134. Which is decided unDemocratic, innit. :( Thanks for your work limpyhobbler. n/t

[snappyturtle]

64. K&R Twice in as many days two of my favorite posters, FWWM being one,

have been throttled by ???? Who ARE these posters? What
ever happened to civility? I know it's difficult for folks to
wrap their heads around the President's policies that are so
contrary to what he led us to believe. But, I will not give an
inch on the rudeness spewed while they're obviously struggling
getting their heads on straight.

[Fire Walk With Me]

135. Thanks snappyturtle. It's not easy on the personal level. But as you so well describe, it's required

and important. Peace!

[LaydeeBug]

67. I've had the same thing happen. I stated FACTS and the haters couldn't take it.

I feel for you.

[Fire Walk With Me]

136. Thanks. You'd hope that on a left-wing board or group or political party, there wouldn't BE

any haters, much less those unwilling to consider verifiable facts.

[LaydeeBug]

168. You are most certainly welcome. Haters are gonna hate, honey, it's what they *do*

And there has been MORE THAN A LITTLE of "so and so belongs to a minority group (so do I) and if you criticize them, you are phobic toward that minority"

There's also been a LOT of conflating Chelsea Manning with Edward Snowden and they are NOT the same fucking thing.

[marble falls]

68. I have to agree with you. From what you post I'd have to say you were hit by lightening twice.

[Fire Walk With Me]

137. Then this OP was alerted upon (yeah, by a member of this group, sure). :(

[marble falls]

166. How did the jury fall?

[Fire Walk With Me]

173. Let it stand:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12528585#post94

[OmahaBlueDog]

69. Mission Statement

Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by:
• Interacting with friendly, like-minded people;
• Sharing news and information, free from the corporate media filter;
• Participating in lively, thought-provoking discussions;
• Helping elect more Democrats to political office at all levels of American government; and
• Having fun!

Our Community Standards

It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate on our discussion forums in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints. Members should refrain from posting messages on DU that are disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. These broad community standards of behavior are maintained though the combined efforts of members posting and serving on citizen juries, using their own best judgment to decide what behavior is appropriate and what is not.

Members who cannot hold themselves to a high standard risk having their posts hidden by a jury of their peers, and being blocked out of discussion threads they disrupt. Those who exhibit a pattern of willful disregard for the Community Standards risk being in violation of our Terms of Service, and could have their posting privileges revoked.

[Fire Walk With Me]

138. Haters gonna alert on your post ;)

lib·er·al
ˈlib ə rəl
adjective
adjective: liberal

1.
open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
"they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people"
favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.
"liberal citizenship laws"
synonyms: tolerant, unprejudiced, unbigoted, broad-minded, open-minded, enlightened; More
permissive, free, free and easy, easygoing, libertarian, indulgent, lenient
"the values of a liberal society"
antonyms: narrow-minded, bigoted
(in a political context) favoring maximum individual liberty in political and social reform.
"a liberal democratic state"
synonyms: progressive, advanced, modern, forward-looking, forward-thinking, progressivist, enlightened, reformist, radical More
"a liberal social agenda"
antonyms: reactionary, conservative
of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party.
adjective: Liberal
(in the UK) of or relating to the Liberal Democrat Party.
adjective: Liberal
"the Liberal leader"
Theology
regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change.
2.
(of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
synonyms: wide-ranging, broad-based, general

[marble falls]

167. Great sentiments.

[bhikkhu]

70. I'm not fond of the "Gish Gallop"

the technique of drowning debate by making one arguable point and supporting it with a torrent of other arguable points. Any response short of going point by point (each point requiring explanation and references) would seem inadequate, and nobody really wants to write pages in response to an OP.

What you get instead is the majority just move on, while the minority chime in with kudos and so forth. You gain the illusion of popular acclaim, by relying on a tactic that stifles discussion.

Its a minor complaint, and I don't mind just moving on myself.

[Fire Walk With Me]

139. There is a technique called "dictionary flaming" where a posted presents many points

and either demands a response to each and every one, or responds to each and every point you've made in order to draw out a convoluted mess.

You'd imagine liberals and democrats would be on the same page regarding building a better country for everyone. That's all I want. Peace.

[Renew Deal]

73. That's not an appropriate message whether you are a Koch propagandist or not

And I have no reason to believe you are.

I think it's bannable.

[napoleon_in_rags]

77. "Crazy homeless person" is a compliment around here.

That's my brand, "Napoleon in Rags", that guy you go to when you have nothing left to lose. There's a series of commercials lately, from Vonage, that feature this crazy homeless guy with really good ideas. Its the first character on TV I really relate to. He's homeless, he can't change his clothes, but he speaks seven languages. A symbol of these modern wasteful times where idiocy is given central stage and worshipped with money, while intelligence and reason are forced to the side, even on to the streets. And the fact is people feel that, people relate to it.

The take away point is, its GOOD to be an outsider, speaking your mind, saying what you believe in, standing with your principles. Its better than being with the "in" crowd in any party. So be proud, be loud, and keep sharing what you believe in!

PEace.

[Fire Walk With Me]

140. Interesting, thank you :) I've never "fit in" and doubt I ever will so I'll suppose that it's to be

valued and not taken as a stigma. Thanks for the positive perspective and encouragement.

Also, I have friends on Skid Row here in LA, so the insult was taken to include them as well, as was possibly intended (hopefully not). They're people I respect and care about, who are of equal value to any of us, who ARE "us".

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

~The Statue of Liberty

[napoleon_in_rags]

169. Right on! Totally.

I mean its hard at one level not to fit in, but neither did anyone who saw anything new. Great people too. So yeah keep sharing perspectives from the outside.

[JEB]

78. Keep up the good work.

I always read your posts and nearly always agree whole heartedly.

[Fire Walk With Me]

141. Thank you. Here's hoping sanity prevails and inconvenient truths "are allowed". n/t

[summer-hazz]

80. If someone agreed

with me 100%, or even 95% of the time I would not trust them. So why
would I always agree with someone 100%, or even 95% of the time?...
That equates to poor critical thinking in my opinion!

I don't understand loyalty to someone who betrays the left so much!

Hello DLC and Obama!
No im not a RW, so don't even try to go there...

[Fire Walk With Me]

142. Agreed! And I'd vote for Warrren as well! n/t

[summer-hazz]

192. Thank you FWWM

I enjoyed reading your op and every comment made!

[emsimon33]

81. Juror #5 was out of order--there is no excuse for that type of explanation

Even if your post was not appropriate (which you noted it wasn't).

I have recently served on several juries and in each case, the majority voted not to hide the challenged post because the post stated an opinion that the one challenging it did not agree with--the post itself was not out of line.

I agree with you, there appears to be something going on where people on DU are objecting and trying to have hidden opinions with which they do not agree. We should be open to the points of others with which we disagree as long as that position or opinion does not marginalize or defame another.

[Fire Walk With Me]

143. Al Gore with his Inconvenient Truth was shunned...why "they" do this is beyond me.

We're supposed to rally together to face and solve problems in order to build a better country and world. Peace.

[emsimon33]

179. Name calling and not being willing to at least listen to the other side never help

[Enthusiast]

82. You are a righteous dude.

This is bullshit. RW bullshit.

[Fire Walk With Me]

144. Thanks. I agree that bullying and targeting are NOT liberal/democratic values. n/t

[BainsBane]

93. I was actually the only juror who didn't vote to hide your other post

but his kind of effort to inflame tensions on DU is ugly. These discussions are increasingly about nothing other than how much some members hate others.

[Waiting For Everyman]

94. This OP was alerted, jury voted to LEAVE IT 2-4.

At Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:33 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Good LORD, they're out in force.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12528585

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Compounds a hidden post by more shit stirring.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:43 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Disruptive *and* whining. Congrats on the twofer!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: This is a tough one because there's a high count of recommendations. However, this issue really involves a jury decision that should have been alerted. Posting it here is going to be disruptive.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This post should be in Meta..........oh wait, they took that away..........leave it alone then.......and maybe someday they will bring Meta back
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: They really are out in force and their increasingly desperate attempts to suppress dissent say very ugly things about the man whose name they do their dirty work in.

I have no idea why this post was alerted on but since Fire Walk With Me is one of my favorite posters whose posts I always read, there is no way in fucking hell I would ever vote to hide one of their posts.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

If the alerter figured that most of those who are here and support you had already commented in this thread, and so would be excluded from a jury, clearly that wasn't true. Keep up the good work, FWWM. (I was either #2 or #3.)

[thelordofhell]

99. I was Juror #5

I miss the Meta board..........

[Fire Walk With Me]

123. Thank you! Meta became its own circle of hell after a while, with Purity Control perched therein

watching, commenting, dishing out judgement...is this just human nature, and can we please move past it in order to solve the problems facing us?

[BainsBane]

103. wrong

I was a juror on his post mentioned above and the only one of 6 who didn't vote to hide it. When I saw this current thread, I alerted. I don't vote to hide or leave a post based on whether I agree with the content of post because that is not the appropriate role for a juror. It's about whether it violates community standards or TOS. I did not believe the first post did because it was expressed in a clear, non-inflammatory manner. When I then saw this thread, I alerted because I think shit stirring just to sow discord among DUers is ugly and makes DU suck. I like to see ideas discussed rather than petty gossip. When a juror votes based on who they like or whether they agree with a view expressed in a post, they aren't capable of being a fair juror and should recuse themselves. It's not supposed to be a popularity contest. When I alerted on this OP I made no calculation about who might be on the jury or not. I saw mud slinging and I alerted. Evidently some jurors like a mud fight rather than a discussion of ideas and policy. So that is what you have.

The idea that what people post on these boards is so dangerous it needs to be "censored" is absurd. It matters to exactly no one expect the people who post here. Hides should be based on whether posts adhere to community standards and terms of service. I find it sad people think there is something revolutionary about attacking other anonymous strangers online, but I suppose that explains as well as anything why there is so little actual challenge to power and privilege in this country.

[jaysunb]

191. +1 n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

122. "Good Lord" redux. (facepalm) Thank you!

"Whining"...odd how standards differ when "they" are attempting to "win".

Democrats gotta get it together because this shit IS NOT democratic. Peace!

[cui bono]

98. Well I just came upon the post I believe you to be talking about

and I'm expecting one or more of my posts to join yours in hiding.

[bananas]

105. I think I found it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3526992

Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:05 AM
Drunken Irishman (24,942 posts)

68. LOL

Last edited Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:10 PM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

You sound like one of those ranting homeless people I come into contact with while downtown.

[cui bono]

154. Ah... I thought it was this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023528583#post22

That post had no reason to be hidden either. Seems to me there is a concerted effort to get FWWM TS'd by having many of his/her posts hidden.

Not cool. This place has a group of thugs who would rather have supportive group think than real and honest discussions about policy.

[bananas]

107. Drunken Irishman makes it clear he has no compassion for the homeless or "mentally weak"

He sounds like a right-wing asshole.

Here's the subthread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023520179#post68

Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:05 AM

Drunken Irishman (24,942 posts)

68. LOL

You sound like one of those ranting homeless people I come into contact with while downtown.
[hr]
Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #68)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:07 AM

Fire Walk With Me (38,830 posts)

69. AND you have no compassion for the helpless and weak? Piss off. To Ignore you go.

Making fun of bums? Bad karma thing to do." ~Too Much Joy
[hr]
Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #69)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:08 AM

Drunken Irishman (24,942 posts)

70. Not for the mentally weak like yourself ... no.

[99th_Monkey]

104. It sucks for someone to use their Jury powers that way: i.e. to be abusive, hateful, name calling

That's a new twist I have not seen before.

Sorry to hear of your troubles. This too will change.

Look at it this way: if they are going after you so hard,
you must be doing something right!

[Fire Walk With Me]

145. They are apparently picking at me using something I dislike- name-calling, personal attacks, etc.

Purity Control attempting to weed out anything with which it disagrees, which ain't very Democratic.

Cheers 99th_Monkey.

[LeftofObama]

109. I, for one, enjoy reading your posts.

You tell it like it is and that's the way it ought to be.

[Fire Walk With Me]

146. Thank you. It's important because it's plainly obvious some wish certain truths not be told.

Which is neither liberal nor democratic.

[newfie11]

110. Personally attacking the poster by a jury member

Should never happen. Anyone on the jury should forgo their personal opinions of the poster.
That was BAD!

[Fire Walk With Me]

147. I believe it's a planned set of personal attacks, all very similar in being dismissive, name-calling

demeaning, over-the-top, in order to generate a flame-out response.

Not that any liberal or democrat would do that. :/

[RC]

165. It is not in anyway the Liberals or Democrats doing that, or are the problem.

It is the other denizens that are infecting DU, trying to bring it down by whatever means they can. The Jury system needs a rework to make what happened to you, harder to do.
It is bad enough to have post hidden, but one that did not in anyway bend the the rules in the first place but to have a remark left, such as by juror #5? That would have been an automatic alert by me, with a wordy explanation for the alert. I am waiting for a response for your ATA, to see what our owners have to say about this. We should not have to be taking our chances when posting known facts that can be backed up with reliable links. Especially by one of the more thoughtful posters here.

[marew]

111. Could not agree with you more!

Thank you for your posts, FWWM.

[Fire Walk With Me]

148. Thanks! n/t

[rhett o rick]

125. It looks to me like a coordinated effort. After Meta was closed down because the bullies

were abusing it, they had a hard time. Then I noticed a rash of alerts re. "meta" until it got out of hand and Skinner told them to knock it off. Now "CT" is the new witch hunt.

All I can say is to hang in and dont let them bait you into getting PPR'd. That's their goal. They want to make DU into the BOG.

[Fire Walk With Me]

149. Agreed on all counts. And it ain't very Democratic is it. :(

Peace!

[donco]

150. Welcome to the club.

I had a thread hidden evidently because I didn't confirm lockstep as some of the conformity cops on DU thought that I shoulda as well.

[Fire Walk With Me]

185. The principle of the thing is scary.

[reusrename]

156. The response from #5 is over the top.

It amazes me that people can be so self-unaware. The prophet Orwell understood this too well. Wrote books about it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

184. "If the future of America is given to them, watch it go over Niagara Falls..." ~Dead Kennedys

[AnotherMcIntosh]

158. We'll never know for sure, but could this be Juror #5?

[Fire Walk With Me]

182. :)

[Lifelong Protester]

164. I enjoy reading your posts

even the ones that scare me!

I belong to the "I voted for him twice but have some serious questions/disappointments" club.

Don't we have an old bus we meet under?

Anyway, thanks for the digging and reporting. It is one of the reasons I continue to come to DU. I ALWAYS read what you post....

[Fire Walk With Me]

181. I've set up some chairs and a reading lamp and air conditioning and even a snack bar

here under the bus; all are welcome Peace!

[Utopian Leftist]

174. I always read your OP's.

You don't know me as I don't post often, but I have been reading here for years and I am a fan.

The more brilliant the individual mind, the more radical its opposition. Don't be discouraged by jealous detractors.

[Fire Walk With Me]

180. Please post more. It is needed most significantly. Peace...n/t

[Little Star]

175. Holy Shit what a nasty comment! k&r for your OP though.

[Fire Walk With Me]

178. I'd expect such from a RW board or source. n/t

[Little Star]

183. I know, but still that was really, really nasty.

[Lint Head]

176. Isn't it against the DU bylaws to insult other DU members? I count approximately 5 insults in that

one paragraph. Hope my reply isn't hidden for just pointing something out that is obvious. I serve on the jury occasionally but make it a point to never insult anyone if I make a comment or have an opinion. I try to never insult anyone when I have a difference of opinion face to face with someone. It's not only bad manners but offers nothing to a discussion.

[Fire Walk With Me]

177. Yesterday I was specifically, personally insulted by at least five different DUers.

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 06:04 PM - Edit history (2)

Obviously an attempt to create a flame-out.

I'll imagine that the content of the comment is -not- okay, but stranger things have happened. Unfortunately, it may put the Admin in a position. Hopefully not.

[Cronus Protagonist]

187. It spreads the lotion on its' skin

[stupidicus]

188. that the JS around here is screwed is one of the first things I noticed

when I started participating here after a decade of just using it for the news aggregating place it is.

I agree, based on experience, with some of the other posters here, that some have learned how to game the system. I've had posts hidden for merely reciprocating in kind to the inarguable "personal" assaults of others, and upon pursuing that case with "reports" of my own, had jurors mockingly leave comments not unlike that you got, and let them stand.

The admins around here need to provide some mechanism whereby which those kinda jurors can be put on report and drummed outta the jury pool. I would imagine that many new posters find that kinda crap discouraging enough to not come back.

[Jackpine Radical]

189. Personally, I don't bother to alert on ad hominem

Attacks on me. I just let them stand as testimonials to the mentality of the posters.

[freedom fighter jh]

190. I'm a fan of yours.

When I see your name I click.

[scarletwoman]

193. I hope you alerted on the jury results - that would take it to straight to the Admins.

Down in the lower left hand corner, there's a link you can click on that's labeled "Alert Abuse". You really ought to use it and send this jury result to the Admins - they'll be able to see who juror #5 was.

Keep on keeping on!

[Hissyspit]

194. Fire Walk With Me PPR'd

[rhett o rick]

195. Do you know why? nm

[Hissyspit]

197. Skinner: "Anti-Semite"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=167827&sub=trans

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2549457

[Cali_Democrat]

198. It's about dayum time

That one really stocked up on the crazy.

[Hissyspit]

199. This crazy, you mean?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023532643

[Cali_Democrat]

200. ???

[zappaman]

201. No

This crazy...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3529707

[rhett o rick]

203. Some how I knew you would be celebrating. No place for those that dont agree. nm

[zappaman]

204. Seems like this site is no place for anti-semitism either.

[rhett o rick]

207. Your ridicule and grave dancing is about as low as you can get.

[zappaman]

209. Pointing out the poster you are defending was nuked for being an anti-semite

is not ridicule.
But maybe you should go to ATA and ask them why anti-semites aren't welcome here.

[rhett o rick]

211. Go ahead and ridicule and mock. And as far as him being anti-semitic, I dont

think you care as long as you got to see him PPR'd. Some kind of special thrill for you and your friends who never discuss issues but seem to be here only to police DU. Alert, hide, lock threads, and of course the PPR.

[truedelphi]

205. Hey there, fellow imbecile!

Big K & R to this topic.

Many of those who attempt to smear us wouldn't recognize a real Democrat if Jack Kennedy miraculously woke from his dirt nap and went and bit them in the butt.

And some of them sound like they have never heard or read of FDR.

[rhett o rick]

206. You do know he was PPR'd. For being anti-semitic of all things. How ironic. nm

[truedelphi]

208. What is PPR'd?? Really don't know.

I remember the term coming up against Zimmerman trolls, but didn't know what it meant then?

Peppered? Prepared? Perfectly pre-raptured?

Curious minds want to know.

[zappaman]

210. Posting Privileges Revoked

In this case, for anti semitic posts.

[rhett o rick]

212. Beware, "They are out in force". They are looking to purify DU. Smite those that speak out. nm

[zappaman]

213. Smite those that are anti Semites.

That is what you meant to say, right?

[Turborama]

216. Pointless

It's all been said already