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zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:52 PM Jan 2017

It won't make the problems go away

We can shut down the forum, but it won't change the fact that the democratic party is in one of the worst places its ever been. It wasn't just Hillary that lost. We lost up and down the ticket. It might be a good idea to figure out how we got here. It could be important to understanding where to go and what to do. I strongly suspect just focusing on Trump isn't going to fix things. And the Russians didn't hack every race and every democratic candidate. And Comey didn't undermine all candidates.

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It won't make the problems go away (Original Post) zipplewrath Jan 2017 OP
Then what were they doing in the states election board's computers?? shraby Jan 2017 #1
It's not a choice BETWEEN dealing with voter suppression OR recognizing that the party is in crisis. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #6
If a party loses due to voter suppression and/or russian infilitration and/or FBI meddling boston bean Jan 2017 #9
That didn't happen in Wisconsin forthemiddle Jan 2017 #11
That is EXACTLY what Pat McCrory did in NC, too. DMVs never processed voter registrations blm Jan 2017 #46
RT bullshit was being spread here pretty thickly- and some people still buy that crap... bettyellen Jan 2017 #2
+1 nt JTFrog Jan 2017 #3
Yep. Pretty much. HassleCat Jan 2017 #4
We picked up seats in the House and Senate AJH032 Jan 2017 #5
CA is doing great. Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #7
+1 nt JTFrog Jan 2017 #8
for the last 10 years? zipplewrath Jan 2017 #21
Do you know the history of redistricting? Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #26
And so how did we get there? zipplewrath Jan 2017 #29
Read, the, date. Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #34
wish I could zipplewrath Jan 2017 #35
But someone did undermine our candidates. How about adopting this unoffical rule: FSogol Jan 2017 #10
Excellent Post. Excellent. Justice Jan 2017 #12
Yeah, because candidates will always run against the person who isn't in the race. zipplewrath Jan 2017 #17
We can't. There a lot of us here who can't admit our campaign was less than perfect. dionysus Jan 2017 #13
And you win the thread and the 2016 Postmortem Forum Lurks Often Jan 2017 #14
I don't know if bernie could have won the GE, but i figure he would have stood just a good dionysus Jan 2017 #18
Will Bernie run for President again - NO! - So what's your point? CajunBlazer Jan 2017 #50
You mistake me for someone who care what a conservadem thinks, gush gallop aside. dionysus Jan 2017 #52
The label "far left" has little to do with their objectives - it's their mind set CajunBlazer Jan 2017 #55
When you start creating strawman and shove words in other people's mouths, you lose credibility. emulatorloo Jan 2017 #58
Excellent. I agree, those are my thoughts exactly. justhanginon Jan 2017 #54
+1 nt riderinthestorm Jan 2017 #59
Agreed - a decent post-election write-up here: jonno99 Jan 2017 #15
This is the fundamental problem. zipplewrath Jan 2017 #16
Comey did undermine all candidates. NCTraveler Jan 2017 #19
Last 10 years zipplewrath Jan 2017 #20
Gerrymandering and voter suppression?! We just going to ignore those factors now? tia uponit7771 Jan 2017 #24
no, but zipplewrath Jan 2017 #25
When did I say he was responsible for it all? NCTraveler Jan 2017 #36
We didn't focus down the ticket since 2008 crazycatlady Jan 2017 #40
+1 uponit7771 Jan 2017 #23
BULL FUCKIN SHIT !!! Comey, Voter suppression and Russia all the rest of the postmortems are guessin uponit7771 Jan 2017 #22
Try again zipplewrath Jan 2017 #27
Gerrymandering and voter suppression?! We just going to ignore those factors now? tia uponit7771 Jan 2017 #30
no, we're going to disucss them zipplewrath Jan 2017 #32
Their replies make it clear they don't understand gerrymandering and voter suppression... NCTraveler Jan 2017 #37
+1, we've got to do the 50 state thing all county thing ... without voter suppression and uponit7771 Jan 2017 #39
As a Floridian, I get the enormous importance of local elections and gerrymandering. NCTraveler Jan 2017 #41
OK, zip - how long have firms like Crosscheck been around and used by GOP vote suppression machine? blm Jan 2017 #49
Crosscheck blocked the votes of hundreds of thousands in swing states. That is the BIGGEST reason. blm Jan 2017 #28
For the last 10 years+? zipplewrath Jan 2017 #31
You weren't around when Florida purged voter rolls before 2000 election? Crosscheck was another, and blm Jan 2017 #43
Again zipplewrath Jan 2017 #33
Or we could expose and SUE Crosscheck and those states implementing Crosscheck. blm Jan 2017 #44
Stop attacking Dems. joshcryer Jan 2017 #38
Yes! Republicans are the problem, not Democrats. betsuni Jan 2017 #42
I'd argue '06 and '02 were worse, and that's just from recent memory Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #45
The subject of how to improve the party isn't banned for discussion. geek tragedy Jan 2017 #47
Did anyone forward the premise that removing and replacing one forum LanternWaste Jan 2017 #48
No zipplewrath Jan 2017 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author stonecutter357 Jan 2017 #51
A Coup Is Underway otohara Jan 2017 #53
Repeatedly picking at the scab BainsBane Jan 2017 #56

shraby

(21,946 posts)
1. Then what were they doing in the states election board's computers??
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:55 PM
Jan 2017

I hold they were blocking registrations from being recorded. Particularly the ones that registered at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles and were sent in from there.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
6. It's not a choice BETWEEN dealing with voter suppression OR recognizing that the party is in crisis.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 02:30 AM
Jan 2017

We can and must do BOTH.

boston bean

(36,486 posts)
9. If a party loses due to voter suppression and/or russian infilitration and/or FBI meddling
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:23 AM
Jan 2017

is it a party in crisis, or a nation in crisis?

I'm gonna focus on the shit you can actually point to that caused a loss. And work on getting that fixed.

forthemiddle

(1,434 posts)
11. That didn't happen in Wisconsin
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:03 AM
Jan 2017

We have same day registration, so if someone isn't on the voter rolls, they can register right there.
For Feingold it wasn't Gerrymandering either because that doesn't affect Senate races.
Voter ID MAYBE had an effect, but there have been numerous surveys done since election day, and the number I saw about people being turned away because of not having proper ID was eleven!!!!!

In Wisconsin (outside of Madison, who outvoted this election) every other Dem stronghold just wasn't jazzed up enough to vote.

Why was Ron Johnson able to paint Russ Feingold (who lost by a larger margin than Clinton did), as an out of touch policitian? We need to figure that out before 2018 when Tammy Baldwin is up for election.

blm

(113,817 posts)
46. That is EXACTLY what Pat McCrory did in NC, too. DMVs never processed voter registrations
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:47 PM
Jan 2017

that went through their offices.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
2. RT bullshit was being spread here pretty thickly- and some people still buy that crap...
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:56 PM
Jan 2017

You'd think they'd be a little bit introspective but I'm not seeing it. And the irrational targeting of Dems for hatred continues here.

AJH032

(1,125 posts)
5. We picked up seats in the House and Senate
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:59 AM
Jan 2017

Just throwing that out there...

I wouldn't say we lost up and down the ticket.

Starry Messenger

(32,375 posts)
7. CA is doing great.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 05:37 AM
Jan 2017

Fix gerrymandering and reduce voter suppression and you'll see the GOP start to sink like a rock in other states too.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
21. for the last 10 years?
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:25 PM
Jan 2017

Or really more. The democrats have been "losing" for the better part of 12 - 15 years if you look up and down the ticket.

That losing has enabled the gerrymandering.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
35. wish I could
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:19 AM
Jan 2017

Something is wrong with the pointer. But if I anticipate your point, I'm not sure it includes the "continued" tendency of the Democratic party lose.

FSogol

(46,503 posts)
10. But someone did undermine our candidates. How about adopting this unoffical rule:
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:32 AM
Jan 2017
When running for office as a member of the Democratic party, how about running AGAINST the Republicans and conservatives instead of attacking the party?

Look at what is about to happen in Virginia. McAullife's term as Governor is up and he's prevented from running again due to VA law.

Lieutenant Governor, Ralph Northam is running and Tom Perriello, former U.S. Representative is entering the race. Both are excellent candidates. Both would make great Governors. Both have solid progressive records. At some point, the national far-left will notice this race, select one candidate, and begin to demonize the other. An inter-party fight might lead to Republican Puke, Ed Gillespie winning.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
17. Yeah, because candidates will always run against the person who isn't in the race.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:21 PM
Jan 2017

Look, (as Obama is fond of starting answers) Candidates will and must run against their opponents. The answer is not to avoid a primary challenger, the point is to get the support of the party being "who you are". Yes, it is hard, but in a way it is the point. The whole "pivot" thing rarely works. Our challenge is to pick candidates who are being "themselves" in the primary. They are the only ones who can win.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
14. And you win the thread and the 2016 Postmortem Forum
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:49 PM
Jan 2017

Too many have invested too much of themselves into their political candidate to ever be able to accept or see the flaws of their candidate.

Before the accusations start, I never once believed Sanders could win in the GE

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
18. I don't know if bernie could have won the GE, but i figure he would have stood just a good
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:57 PM
Jan 2017

a chance as any. However, i did not think there was any way he could have every won the primary. And trying to guess how well he would have done is a complete waste, because we'll never, ever know for sure (no matter what we may think would have happened).

He was supposed to have been a kucinich-like joke and get laughed off the court. However, he helped fire up the next generation of voters, he brought thebplight of the middle class into the forefront in a way no one else was doing, and he won several states in the process.

To me, that was far exceeding original expectations. He helped make the middle class a hughlighted plank in the platform, and that's great. He got hillary talking more about the middle class than she would have otherwise, and that's great!

Of course you'll never get anyone to admit that was their ultimate goal, that's something you just don't do in politics... i'm pretty sure he knew what a long shot winning the primary was, so i think he accomplished what he set out to do.

Hillary would have been a fine president; i think she would have been a better president than a campaigner. And that's fine, not every body is a natural campaigner or self promoter.... not everyobe is gifted at it like bill or barack.. they are true masters of it. Candidates like hillary or gore would have been far better officeholders than they were campaigners...

CajunBlazer

(5,648 posts)
50. Will Bernie run for President again - NO! - So what's your point?
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:59 PM
Jan 2017

Let me answer that question for you - your point is moot! Dead! Kaput! It doesn't matter now; it will have absolutely no affect on the future. Bernie was a one off. No independent socialists are in the wings ready to throw their hats in the ring for 2020, or even 2024 or 2028. The "Revolution" is dead! Bernie was the far left's "chance of a life time" and that one chance was not successful.

Who gives a shit if he "far exceeded expectations" - he lost! And he lost handily! If he wanted win he should have appealed to more registered Democrats - in every primary he lost in that category. Why, because they weren't drawn to his "revolution" and he would never change his approach because his "revolution" was/is everything to him. He has been a modern Don Quixote and he has be jousting with capitalist windmills his entire life, and will continue to do so until he dies.

Here is what he did do - he succeeded in his original objective to draw Hillary further to the left - to concentrate on appealing to her base rather than appealing to middle America. Worst of all he got people like you all excited about an agenda that he could have never made into reality. He attacked Hillary repeatedly by painting her as a tool of Corporate America. All's fair in war and politics, but after he lost he could take those words back, and he really didn't try.

After he finally conceded he left supporters disillusioned and far from excited about supporting Hillary. Many "held their noses" and voted for Clinton, but they did little else. Knowing that Sanders had success in attacking Clinton as a capitalist tool, early in the general election campaign Trump used Sanders attack lines reinforcing a message that shouldn't have been use to attack a fellow progressive in the first place. He continued to use them effectively for the rest of the campaign.

Yes, Hillary's campaign made some mistakes by concentrating on discrediting Trump - they misunderstood that far too many Americans would stoop to support such a rotten human being. And Comey and Putin supplied the coup de grace, but Sander's campaign was the first nail in Hillary's coffin.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
52. You mistake me for someone who care what a conservadem thinks, gush gallop aside.
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:14 PM
Jan 2017

Keep thinking caring about the populace is "far left".

When you start saying affordable healthcare, education, and fair wages are "far left" ideas, you lose any molecule of liberal credibility you may have had.

Again, you act like talking shit about bernie will hurt my feelings, or something. It won't.

Politics isn't reduced to idolizing a conservadem politician to us... cry about bernie all you want, it won't hurt my feelings...

I'd say "you lose", but having a conservadem lose to a human combover due to hubris, makes us ALL lose!

CajunBlazer

(5,648 posts)
55. The label "far left" has little to do with their objectives - it's their mind set
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:39 PM
Jan 2017

Most progressive have the same objectives.

What sets the "far left" apart is the propensity to believe that the impossible is not only possible, but inevitable if they but try hard enough to will it into existence. There are many other mind sets of the far left, but I am not currently willing to spend too much effort on a board which is going away or on someone who will not be convinced even when presented with facts - another far left trait by the way.

emulatorloo

(45,561 posts)
58. When you start creating strawman and shove words in other people's mouths, you lose credibility.
Fri Jan 20, 2017, 02:01 AM
Jan 2017

"When you start saying affordable healthcare, education, and fair wages are "far left" ideas, you lose any molecule of liberal credibility you may have had. "

Poster never said any of that.

I disagree w his construct of far left.

However attempting to paint him as against affordable healthcare, education and fair wages is bullshit. It is intellectually dishonest and you are better than that.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
16. This is the fundamental problem.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:11 PM
Jan 2017

Our losses go way back and we need to understand this. If this group gets shut down it should be replaced by the group " how the heck did we get here? ". Personally it has little to do with HRC and far more to do with our drift over the last 20 years.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
20. Last 10 years
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
Jan 2017

Look at the overall drift of the last 10 years up and down the ticket and tell me that an act from 2016 is responsible for it all.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
25. no, but
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:29 PM
Jan 2017

we also can't ignore the fact that gerrymandering happened because we lost so badly at the state level.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
36. When did I say he was responsible for it all?
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:54 AM
Jan 2017

I was simply addressing your blatantly inaccurate statement. The assumption you then made is completely made up and cannot be found in anything I have said.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
40. We didn't focus down the ticket since 2008
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:48 AM
Jan 2017

And the downticket campaigns were competing for resources (volunteers) with the top of the ticket ones. Many wouldn't even share office space.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
32. no, we're going to disucss them
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:49 PM
Jan 2017

But we're going to discuss them in the context of the last 10 or 15 years.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
37. Their replies make it clear they don't understand gerrymandering and voter suppression...
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:05 AM
Jan 2017

Last edited Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

didn't just start this cycle. It's a big problem and goes back throughout the time-frame they keep talking about. They think just blurting out 10 to 15 years somehow mitigates the voter suppression and gerrymandering argument. It shows a lack of understanding. Please don't get me wrong, I think we have other issues as well. I just don't get that they won't even recognize the depth of the problem. And that is what they are doing.

uponit7771

(91,748 posts)
39. +1, we've got to do the 50 state thing all county thing ... without voter suppression and
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:46 AM
Jan 2017

... gerrymandering we'd mud stomp the KGOP.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
41. As a Floridian, I get the enormous importance of local elections and gerrymandering.
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:05 AM
Jan 2017

Stating that does not negate my concerns about the DNC. A fifty state strategy and understanding where we can really make ground at the county and district level is big. We have similar concerns and I don't get why some so easily dismiss the big picture. I actually agree with some of their concerns. I don't get why they are so dismissive.

blm

(113,817 posts)
49. OK, zip - how long have firms like Crosscheck been around and used by GOP vote suppression machine?
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 05:55 PM
Jan 2017

.

blm

(113,817 posts)
28. Crosscheck blocked the votes of hundreds of thousands in swing states. That is the BIGGEST reason.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:32 PM
Jan 2017

And the one we have to deal with and expose and….SUE.

blm

(113,817 posts)
43. You weren't around when Florida purged voter rolls before 2000 election? Crosscheck was another, and
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:39 PM
Jan 2017

even more aggressive method pressed into use.

Started in Kansas in 2005.

Surprised so few are aware of this history and how it has deliberately targeted swing state voters.

https://thevotingnews.com/tag/interstate-crosscheck/

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
33. Again
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:53 PM
Jan 2017

I think that we need to focus on the last 10 -15 years.
We need to realize that up and down the ticket we have been slowly losing at the local and state level, not to mention losing at a federal level when we should have been winning "easily".

I know people want to kill this group, but we really need to discuss how e got here over the last 10, 15 or 20 years.

So, maybe the powers that be can rename this "how we got to where we need to go".

Or we could just whine.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
47. The subject of how to improve the party isn't banned for discussion.
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:24 PM
Jan 2017

This is a backwards-looking forum, and as such it will have to give way to a forward-looking one.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
48. Did anyone forward the premise that removing and replacing one forum
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:30 PM
Jan 2017

Did anyone forward the premise that removing and replacing one forum would prevent the problems?

I strongly suspect that any actual structural weaknesses within the party will not be solved, removed or absolved by the non-existence or replacement of the forum.

zipplewrath

(16,692 posts)
57. No
Fri Jan 20, 2017, 01:04 AM
Jan 2017

But Skinner can not be influenced. He was very clear that he has made his decision and will entertain no thoughtful arguments to the contrary. The same attitude that resulted in a disastrous election for the democrats.

Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
53. A Coup Is Underway
Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:17 PM
Jan 2017

by those who decided it would be easier to take over the party vs making that beautiful dream of a 3rd party come true because they can't and they know it.

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