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hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 11:34 AM Dec 2016

What a bad ground game looks like.

NYT made a pair of maps: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/16/us/politics/the-two-americas-of-2016.html

AlexE made gradient versions: http://www.vividmaps.com/2016/12/trumpland-and-clinton-archipelago.html

The thing that really matters from those maps is that fact that areas favoring Trump are physically connected, but areas favoring Clinton aren't. (incidentally, this extreme concentration of votes in populous metropolitan areas is why we have the big popular vote margin for Clinton, but no EC win) Campaigns rely heavily on "building out" by canvasing, word of mouth, signs, and stickers from existing areas of support to new areas. When people see or hear about the candidate then they feel enough of a connection to actually look into it. OTOH, if you hear about some candidate popular somewhere else, and don't see it in-person, and possibly already vaguely dislike that candidate for whatever reason, it's pretty easy to just assume that those other people are simply a bunch of idiots. All those "I don't see any bumper stickers," and "No enthusiasm," stories did actually matter. Even the rally size stories mattered. All of it was a reflection of the problem. It has a lot to do with the "momentum" stuff the campaign told us didn't matter. It did, but acknowledging that meant admitting their poor ground game, which would add momentum in the wrong direction.

Aside from the coasts, parts of the Southwest, and parts of the Southeast, Clinton didn't achieve much build out.

Probably a side-effect of equivocating people who almost agree with us to people who hate us. Clinton herself got way too close to doing that with her "basket of deplorables comment," but aside from that she stayed away. However, her surrogates, campaign staff, and plenty of other democrats hammered that message home loudly every day, severely undermining her.

Need to fix that next time.

I can't find similar maps for party votes in general, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were substantially different. It would go a long way towards explaining why we weren't able to root out the worst congress in living memory.

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What a bad ground game looks like. (Original Post) hellofromreddit Dec 2016 OP
The gerrymandering probably went a long way to give us this result. shraby Dec 2016 #1
I don't think that is the case here MichMan Dec 2016 #4
How so? Yonnie3 Dec 2016 #5
it helps determine who counts the votes, who suppresses the votes, who gets to vote KittyWampus Dec 2016 #12
I see. Yonnie3 Dec 2016 #16
If Republican legislatures vote to require photo id and then close DMV's in minority neighborhoods- KittyWampus Dec 2016 #21
Please she got more votes then any other candidate in history except for Obama in 2008 Botany Dec 2016 #2
Bangs forehead against wall ... sighs. KPN Dec 2016 #6
Unless the Polls are hacked... pbmus Dec 2016 #9
Oh yeah, that's why WE didn't win this election over the least liked, least favorable KPN Dec 2016 #23
We can't have an honest post mortem here. EL34x4 Dec 2016 #10
I get so many jury requests on posts discussing why Clinton lost. Ace Rothstein Dec 2016 #20
Good for you! Right on! KPN Dec 2016 #24
Yup BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #28
I'll give it a try then Yupster Dec 2016 #11
She talked a ton about jobs, voters liked her better on jobs and economics according to post bettyellen Dec 2016 #19
Then we need to talk about why that message failed to reach voters. hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #27
The media key saying she didn't talk about jobs- they lied about her, made the bettyellen Dec 2016 #29
I certainly didn't hear her complaints about the media when they were ignoring Sanders. hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #31
Because they would have laughed them off- she often complained they would not give time to issues bettyellen Dec 2016 #32
I don't see what repeating debunked nonsense will accomplish. hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #35
Yup! KPN Dec 2016 #25
I suppose that matters if the plan is to excuse our way back into power. hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #17
This! KPN Dec 2016 #26
Has anyone undertaken to make similar maps of patterns from past elections? JHB Dec 2016 #3
I looked around a little, but I couldn't find any hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #13
The biggest thing we have going for us Turbineguy Dec 2016 #7
It must have been fun naming the place names on the map Yupster Dec 2016 #8
The big mistake... kentuck Dec 2016 #14
That is true. Willie Pep Dec 2016 #18
Definitely true. The president is the head of 1 of HeartachesNhangovers Dec 2016 #22
Oh god, I can't possibly like this post enough... vi5 Dec 2016 #30
Inaccurate Picture sagesnow Dec 2016 #15
I like this quote realmirage Dec 2016 #33
There is a difference between preaching to the choir HoneyBadger Dec 2016 #34

MichMan

(13,085 posts)
4. I don't think that is the case here
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 11:49 AM
Dec 2016

According to the link, the maps are generated by counties not congressional districts. County land borders are not gerrymandered

Yonnie3

(18,093 posts)
5. How so?
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 11:52 AM
Dec 2016

Gerrymandering greatly affects the House. I don't see how it affects the election of the president. Can you explain?

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
12. it helps determine who counts the votes, who suppresses the votes, who gets to vote
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:15 PM
Dec 2016

who is challenged.

Yonnie3

(18,093 posts)
16. I see.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:29 PM
Dec 2016

Thanks.

I've not seen scientific estimates of how much this affects the vote. Most of what I've read about gerrymandering doesn't say much about the non-house races. My meaning was more along the lines of how MUCH it affect the presidential race. Of course I didn't say that.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
21. If Republican legislatures vote to require photo id and then close DMV's in minority neighborhoods-
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 01:19 PM
Dec 2016

that puts a huge handicap on minority voters.

Botany

(72,410 posts)
2. Please she got more votes then any other candidate in history except for Obama in 2008
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 11:47 AM
Dec 2016

And Trump only won the E.C. because he cheated, cross check, russian hacking,
Comey and some of the FBI, fake news, unceasing and unneeded hearings into
nothing as per HRC, and a shit ass media (we heard all about HRC's emails but
almost nothing about Trump U. targeting widows of the Iraq war and stealing
their money).

For God's sake + 80,000 votes were taken away in Detroit alone.

KPN

(16,086 posts)
6. Bangs forehead against wall ... sighs.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 11:58 AM
Dec 2016

But nevermind that this election should have been a slam dunk landslide including the electoral college votes.

Why are people here so frigging defensive about analyzing what went wrong that we, the Democratic Party, were responsible for as opposed to looking for others to blame?

KPN

(16,086 posts)
23. Oh yeah, that's why WE didn't win this election over the least liked, least favorable
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 01:43 PM
Dec 2016

candidate ever in the history of the nation! Give me a break. We/Hillary lost by 80,000 votes in three States, but won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes -- and you think we lost only because we were hacked!!!! Get real. Stop defending failure!

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
10. We can't have an honest post mortem here.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:09 PM
Dec 2016

Lest we violate forum rules against "right wing talking points" and/or "bashing Democratic public figures."

As such, we have to find other reasons to explain our loss; Russians, Comey, election fraud, space aliens, whatever. Hillary ran a perfect campaign because she won the popular vote!

No introspection required.

Ace Rothstein

(3,299 posts)
20. I get so many jury requests on posts discussing why Clinton lost.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 01:16 PM
Dec 2016

I always mark them as clearly not breaking the forum rules and that the alerter did it to disrupt.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
11. I'll give it a try then
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:11 PM
Dec 2016

Hillary lost because she narrowly lost Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. That was her blue wall.

If you compare maps of those three states from 2012 to 2016 you'll see there are many counties who voted for Obama and Trump.

There's your autopsy. Let's find out why thousands of voters in those Midwest counties would vote for Obama and then Trump.

My guess is it's because Trump was so focused talking jobs, jobs, jobs. That must have been relevant to them.

Hillary talked about how bad Trump was. That didn't seem as relevant to them.

Was it racism that caused people to vote twice for Obama and then for Trump. That seems nonsensical on its face.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
19. She talked a ton about jobs, voters liked her better on jobs and economics according to post
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 01:11 PM
Dec 2016

Election polls- trump voters liked him much better on immigration and terrorism. In other words- getting rid of brown people like he promised. The media is loathe to say it, but they haven't been very honest with us all year.
Let's not spread bullshit ourselves too!

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
29. The media key saying she didn't talk about jobs- they lied about her, made the
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 02:39 PM
Dec 2016

Emails an issue when there was nothing there and reported DJT lies and bigotry as if they were true and normal. They passed along his lies without comment for most of the year. Worse, they are still doing it!

CNN and MSNBC both did this, his criticism of them is a head fake because they each have 2-3 pundits out of dosens who will criticize Trump.

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
31. I certainly didn't hear her complaints about the media when they were ignoring Sanders.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 04:08 PM
Dec 2016

The media never have his campaign a fair shake, which benefited her enormously in the primary. If Hillary wanted fairness out of the media, she should have been hammering them early in the campaign, not just now, after the "surprise" loss.

Besides that, no amount of complaining about the evil media will change the facts on the ground: support was soft to nonexistant outside of isolated parts of the US and the party simply didn't acknowledge it.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
32. Because they would have laughed them off- she often complained they would not give time to issues
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 05:06 PM
Dec 2016

And tried to give her website addy after being given 4/5 seconds to talk policy. The media loved Bernie and he got a higher percentage of positive coverage than anyone. In particular they loved it when he slammed other Dems. HRC did well when they gave her the time but most of the time they chose to spend on her by far was email bullshit and other people slamming her policies.

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
35. I don't see what repeating debunked nonsense will accomplish.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 05:58 PM
Dec 2016

Sanders was not loved by the media, he was ignored. Yeah, the five seconds per week coverage he got wasn't negative, but invisibility kills campaigns. And when it came to counting delegates in the primary, the media lumped in supers with pledged without explaining the difference, making Sanders look like a hopeless lost cause. That helped Clinton, and she never opposed any of that obvious bias.

Bernie certainly did criticize democrats, but not for being democrats. He criticized specific actions (or inaction), and he didn't let anybody off the hook, even if they just happened to be democrats. So your comment is a distortion.

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
17. I suppose that matters if the plan is to excuse our way back into power.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:29 PM
Dec 2016

However, I strongly suspect we'll have to actually do the hard work of overcoming all of that, and a fundamental part will be connecting to voters before they vote instead of lampooning them for their disobedience afterward.

Turbineguy

(38,338 posts)
7. The biggest thing we have going for us
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:00 PM
Dec 2016

is that the Republicans control everything. And they are incapable of governing.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
8. It must have been fun naming the place names on the map
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:06 PM
Dec 2016

Old Glacier Gulf and the Maricopa Sea.

The maps do make the point pretty starkly though.

kentuck

(112,695 posts)
14. The big mistake...
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:18 PM
Dec 2016

...is to place more value on the Presidency than on the Congress and the House of the people. The power of the people was intentionally placed in our Congress, not the Presidency. It was more of an afterthought.

Willie Pep

(841 posts)
18. That is true.
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:51 PM
Dec 2016

I sometimes think that we put too much emphasis on the presidency. After the Republicans lost in 2008 they put a huge effort into winning state legislatures and governorships and Congress. I actually think state races may even be the most important because they control House district maps. The Republicans knew this and have now gerrymandered the House big time.

22. Definitely true. The president is the head of 1 of
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 01:22 PM
Dec 2016

3 branches of the federal bureaucracy and that's all they are.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
30. Oh god, I can't possibly like this post enough...
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 02:41 PM
Dec 2016

This is and was our biggest mistake. Instead of focusing just on the presidency over everything else for 4 years, we need to worry about every race, in every single place. Dog Catcher in Kenosha, State Senator in North Carolina, Governer of Arizona, up through the house seat in District 3 of New Hampshire, up to the Senate Seat in Michigan.

I was one of the first to complain about how much power we gave the blue dogs and the DLC candidates, but the fact is that I know now that having them in our fold is the price we have to pay for controlling more elements and bodies of our government. I still think that we also need our progressive leaders to stand up to them and not cede too much control, but the 50 state strategy is the 50 state strategy and we need a DNC that understands this and puts every penny, every resource available into that strategy every single election, every single year.

sagesnow

(2,870 posts)
15. Inaccurate Picture
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 12:19 PM
Dec 2016

because much of that Trumpland is Cornfields, empty prairy, desert, oilfields, and those entities do not vote. A more accurate picture would show dots of small towns on the prairie dominating the mega cities thanks to the Electoral College. Think I read somewhere that a vote in Wyoming counts 4 times more than a vote in California or Texas.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
33. I like this quote
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 05:32 PM
Dec 2016
Probably a side-effect of equivocating people who almost agree with us to people who hate us. Clinton herself got way too close to doing that with her "basket of deplorables comment,"


This needs to change if we ever want to win again
 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
34. There is a difference between preaching to the choir
Sun Dec 18, 2016, 05:40 PM
Dec 2016

And to the unconverted. She lost the narrative on that one. It happens. But the real problem was that the choir absolutely loved it and would not let it go away. It think that hurt her more than the original comment.

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