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RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:54 PM Dec 2016

Dredging the primary is the most important thing Dems can do right now.

There is a battle for the moral and economic heart of the dem party. While DU had been made into a haven for Clinton supporters by stifling dissent against the platform and campaign being run on, now there is more open communication being allowed to challenge that authority. It seems to me that Clinton and Sanders are worlds apart in terms of bringing fire to the class war, but they seem unified in terms of civil rights, equal opportunity, protecting the vulnerable and so on. As a result, I think there is a growing emphasis here on how to fight back against the abuse of the wealthy, but it isn't, I hope, an abandonment of other demographic wars being waged.

In any case, I believe that if Clinton's and Sanders' messages are relevant and popular, it ought not be difficult to find their principles in fresher dem candidates. Which ideas emerge and at what intensity will, in a small part, be defined by the conversations here. I think that is exceedingly valuable.

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Dredging the primary is the most important thing Dems can do right now. (Original Post) RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 OP
I agree they are unified in certain ways, and not so much in others. elleng Dec 2016 #1
Not likely ymetca Dec 2016 #2
The most important thing Dems can do now is sit down and figure out what we can win in 2017. Vinca Dec 2016 #3
Yes, of course. I suppose I think that in the meantime, some message refinement may be in order. RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #11
The fact is they aren't worlds apart in terms of policy BainsBane Dec 2016 #4
Historically, by policy, you wouldn't be able to make the case you just did, that Clinton is JCanete Dec 2016 #7
I think they are worlds apart in terms of class war rhetoric. RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #10
"Stifling dissent against the platform." LOL. DanTex Dec 2016 #5
It does stifle dissent against the platform. That said, it is for the purpose of a message of JCanete Dec 2016 #8
I also did not object to it; I was just pointing out that it happened and so RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #9
Nobody got banned for constructive criticism. DanTex Dec 2016 #12
.... LexVegas Dec 2016 #18
But its difficult to really know why things went the way they did. There is only JCanete Dec 2016 #6
It is difficult, but DU has 100k+ users who all have unprecedented access RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #16
Clinton and Sanders are part of history, not the future. geek tragedy Dec 2016 #13
Agreed. RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #17
Oh for Gods sake ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #14
My op literally says that I think it is the most important thing for the dem party. RadiationTherapy Dec 2016 #15

elleng

(135,884 posts)
1. I agree they are unified in certain ways, and not so much in others.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 04:57 PM
Dec 2016

I wish DUers would speak in more civil tones to eachother than they do.

ymetca

(1,182 posts)
2. Not likely
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:30 PM
Dec 2016

the Dems will "dredge" up anything soon. There is too much toxic sludge down at the bottom of that Primary Pit.

Vinca

(50,975 posts)
3. The most important thing Dems can do now is sit down and figure out what we can win in 2017.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:49 PM
Dec 2016

And 2018. And 2019. Our goal should be state legislatures and governorships. If we don't get them back, we are still faced with gerrymandered voting districts (among other things).

BainsBane

(54,729 posts)
4. The fact is they aren't worlds apart in terms of policy
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:54 PM
Dec 2016

Can you point to policy differences that are "words apart."? Certainly there is a difference in style and rhetoric, but by that standard Sanders falls short on equal rights.

"Class warfare" is a GOP term used to discredit policies favorable to workers and the poor. I never heard Sanders himself use that term.

What you refer to as a "demographic war" means politicians that pay attention to the concerns of non-white men. Those concerns are not encompassed by patronizing concern for "the vulnerable." The resistance to treating those Americans as full citizens with a right to political representation and politicians addressing their concerns is a serious problem.

By referring to Democrats attention to the concerns of voters besides white men as "demographic wars," you communicate that you imagine your own concerns to be universal and ours to be divisive. The fact is we are the base of the Democratic Party, its most reliable voters. As much as you are certain our concerns matter less, we don't see it that way. You don't see your call as exclusionary, but it is. Your views and your life experiences are not universal. And I for one am not going to back down on issues that are key in American society because you don't see them as important. I disagree with certain politicians who see white male votes as more important than regular Democratic voters, and those kind of dog whistles do not go unnoticed by the Democratic base.

The GOP exists precisely for people who view the concerns of the non-white male majority as divisive. As much as you want a party that treats the concerns of a minority as though they were universal, that is not the Democratic party. Other people exist in this country, and they deserve political representation. We are not going to sacrifice our rights because some white people feel uncomfortable hearing about, for example, black lives or women's rights. Diversity is a key value in the Democratic Party because the Democratic electorate is so diverse.

Voters decided the primary, and 3.8 million more of them voted for Hillary than Bernie. He lost by a wide, wide margin. You can recite every tired excuse for his political failure, but it accomplishes nothing productive. It does, however, harden divisions. You can keep talking about ending "demographic wars," but many are going to see that as an attempt to silence the majority of Democrats. You seem to forget that those "demographic warriors" are in fact the majority of the party, and we damn well vote.

Clinton had a robust plan to address jobs and inequality, far more extensive than Bernie ever did. That you never bothered to learn about her policy positions and rely instead on media hype and the self-serving statements of a candidate who lost doesn't give you the right to supplant the votes and the will of the millions of Democrats.

Your post does point to the problem of the lack of attention to issues and policy by the media and the lack of initiative by too many voters to inform themselves on policy positions. The fact is that democracy depends on an educated citizenry with some knowledge of civics. Without a responsible news media, it also requires self initiative. We don't have that, and it doesn't bode well for our future as a republic.


 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
7. Historically, by policy, you wouldn't be able to make the case you just did, that Clinton is
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:45 PM
Dec 2016

Last edited Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

somehow better on equal rights or social justice. Sanders has always been ahead of the times. Aside from universal healthcare, Clinton has usually lagged behind them.

And you have applied things to the poster that the poster just did not say. You take issue with "demographic war", fine. It seems to me the poster meant that as "fights for social justice," and said plainly that we should not abandon them. You then go on to pretend that the opposite was said, or meant.

It is by the way, tasteless to say Bernie's run was a political failure. You wouldn't be fond of it if people said that about Clinton's GE bid. Frankly, I've always bristled at the media's gleeful use of "failed Presidential candidate." It has a clear intention, and that is to make a person less relevant, less competent.

I absolutely disagree with your opinion, that Clinton's policies were more robust than Sander's. Hers were probably more fleshed out. On that, I couldn't give a shit. We need to make people want something so that the insiders actually start delivering it and Clinton just had less actual change to offer. She wanted to work with the people screwing us to unscrew us. That is basically, asking them to throw us a bone from time to time.

But we should be having a conversation about what we want our economic policies and direction to look like, rather than the both of us saying "nah-ah cuz clinton this , Bernie That!" This is continuing to get us nowhere, which is why I objected to the OP's premise.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
10. I think they are worlds apart in terms of class war rhetoric.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:06 PM
Dec 2016

I don't care how gop uses the term. I believe we are in a class war so it is accurate terminology for what I am describing.

By demographic war, I mean to imply that - in terms of race, sex, gender, physical/neuro abilities and other issues familiar to critical studies - that there is an assault on the less powerful by the more powerful. And, yes, thank you, I am aware my life is not universal and that, obviously, am not asking anyone to "back down."

Your projections about my opinions about diversity seem to me to have little foundation in my OP.

I never talked of ending demographic wars. I specifically said otherwise: "It seems to me that Clinton and Sanders are worlds apart in terms of bringing fire to the class war, but they seem unified in terms of civil rights, equal opportunity, protecting the vulnerable and so on. As a result, I think there is a growing emphasis here on how to fight back against the abuse of the wealthy, but it isn't, I hope, an abandonment of other demographic wars being waged." And, obviously, I make no mention of "supplanting votes" - I am talking about re-assessing the democratic party ideology.

Eh. You are blabbing-on here and your post not only misrepresents my words but is indulgent on your part. Maybe you want to start your own thread.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
5. "Stifling dissent against the platform." LOL.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:57 PM
Dec 2016

I think what you meant to say is "stifling support for Donald Trump."

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
8. It does stifle dissent against the platform. That said, it is for the purpose of a message of
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:55 PM
Dec 2016

solidarity behind our nominated candidate, and I don't object to it. The point, more than anything is the need to clearly and easily screen trolls who's intentions are to bait discussion and suck energy away from better more productive topics.

Constructive criticism though, is not something to be terrified of and shouted down. I feel like we are or should be more capable of fielding serious issues without freaking the hell out about the possibility that broaching them is "giving comfort to the enemy!"

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
9. I also did not object to it; I was just pointing out that it happened and so
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:56 PM
Dec 2016

those who were more immersed in that echo-chamber atmosphere may be surprised at opinions of Clinton's campaign.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
12. Nobody got banned for constructive criticism.
Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:52 AM
Dec 2016

People got banned for saying "I will not vote for Hillary Clinton".

The only problem is that those people were allowed to stay here way too long.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
6. But its difficult to really know why things went the way they did. There is only
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:19 PM
Dec 2016

interpretation. It is not the previous primary or GE that can help us to mend divides on policy direction. Frankly, I think at this juncture it makes people harder of hearing when it comes to trying to address philosophical underpinnings.

And arguably, for some that will be the point. Damage the policies by taking down the candidate rather than the policies themselves. So I don't expect the primary to go away any time soon, especially in democratic journals and websites,and if it does, we can absolutely expect to hear about it come the next time we start vetting our presidential candidates, but I would advocate a different approach on these boards.

Of course, this is the 2016 postmortem sub-forum, so what should I expect.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
16. It is difficult, but DU has 100k+ users who all have unprecedented access
Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:12 AM
Dec 2016

to the thoughts and feelings of friends and family via social media. To try and assess the shortcomings of Democrats 2016 is, in part, to merely allow DU to work unimpeded.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
15. My op literally says that I think it is the most important thing for the dem party.
Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:09 AM
Dec 2016

I, as do most others, have a variety of concerns that share the top spot and occasionally rotate with secondary and tertiary concerns.

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