Why are people so insistent that the Democratic Party is fatally flawed?

[boston bean]

Think about russian hacks.

Think about Comey.

Think Racism/Sexism.

You don't think these things played a significant role in this loss?

These are the reasons.

So, what are we going to do about the things that really affected the election?

Never mind all this bull that the Democratic Party is falling apart and needs rebuilding. That is a canard.

[radical noodle]

1. Don't forget voter suppression

[spooky3]

4. This was a BIG factor.

[lonestarnot]

2. What people? Media? They've already been purchased.

[WhiteTara]

3. I think that it is because

people who never troubled themselves about party politics have for the first time, looked at the process and since their candidate did not win, they want to "remake" our party to suit them, although many have NO idea what the party does or how it functions.

[ismnotwasm]

5. I am being told it was all about Weiner, Visa's, Trade and Monica

Swear to God.

[LisaM]

6. It's not.

I am concerned about people wanting to narrow it. It has always been - and should be - the big tent.

[Chiquitita]

7. People want it to move left

I voted for president Obama twice and Hillary. Still, as an educator I was deeply disappointed by the tacit approval given to the corporatization of education during the last eight years. Some of us want the Democratic Party to defend education as a public good. So, I think there are multiple reasons. Also, losing. But, I've got too much to do now locally and in educational institutions, to sigh about why Arnie Duncan... and how students and families were poorly served by that pick. It's just an example of how I as a lifelong democrat feel disappointed -- but I'll be loyal regardless.

[boston bean]

14. Hillary ran the most progressive leftist campaign in history.

Please list specifics on what could be more left.

[Chiquitita]

47. It's nothing more than my 2cents

again, it's about people thinking, I'm a loyal democrat, but not everything is perfect about the leadership...we can improve. Hillary spoke little about her plans for k-12 during the campaign. For me public education is a priority. I don't know who her pick for secretary of Education would have been. I'm sure leagues better than DeVos.

[mcar]

51. To me, this is a big part of the problem

Not criticizing you, Chiquitita, as my SO is a public school teacher and we are both very supportive of public education.

My problem is that some Democrats, or people who say they are Democrats or progressives, seem to think that the party and its leadership need to be perfect, need to speak to their and only their main issue.

HRC did have an education plan; she spoke about it and the details were on her website. And, most, if not all, nominees do not indicate who they would choose for cabinet positions until after they are elected.

As President Obama often said, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Too many decided that Hillary wasn't perfect enough for them so they voted 3rd party or didn't vote. Or, they did vote for her, but spent months criticizing her.

Many of these people, BTW, did the same thing to President Obama - only they waited till after he was inaugurated to start complaining that he didn't do exactly what they wanted.

[David__77]

60. I think Mondale and McGovern were not to the right of Clinton.

In 1972 the Democratic platform called for guaranteed minimum income and expanding public sector employment.

[baldguy]

146. And Nixon supported nationalized healthcare.

And while he was in office, he set up the EPA,OSHA, NOAA, the first federal Affirmative Action requirements, and also supported a minimum income in the form of a negative income tax.

It was a different time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. if this is true, why did Russ Feingold lose? Why did Zephyr Teachout lose?

[Chiquitita]

42. I don't know.

I'm not sure how that works. Maybe voter turnout?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. she got more votes than Feingold did in wisconsin. kinda goes against your argument. nt

[Chiquitita]

49. Then I don't know

Is my preferred answer. I wish Feingold had won. If you are looking for a fight with a fellow democrat you won't get it from me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. i'm not looking for a fight, i'm saying there is no evidence outside of large cities

that the country wants more left wing democrats, instead of middle of the road democrats.

bill de blasio works for NYC, but Cuomo works for NY state. cuomo is substantially less liberal than DeBlasio.

[blue cat]

104. Teachers are going to have it extremely hard

Under Trump and the republicans. I know a lot of right wing teachers here in Texas, including my sister. If teachers don't start to vote for the Democratic Party in 2 and 4 years, then they deserve what they are going to get from the republicans which is absolutely no respect.

[Ace Rothstein]

8. We've gotten our asses kicked in 3 out of 4 elections now.

We're getting decimated at the State level outside of solid blue states. Something has to change.

[Midwestern Democrat]

13. Agreed. Too many Democrats just look at the presidential race and never bother

to look at the carnage that's happened down ballot. And here's the thing - even if all you care about is the presidential election, the down ballot damage will directly impact that by severely limiting the pool of potential candidates. We're already seeing it - people right now are hard pressed to name an obvious candidate to run in 2020 (for 2004, you could have rattled off the names Al Gore, John Kerry, Joe Biden, Dick Gephardt, etc without even thinking about it); Tim Kaine was an utterly ordinary Senator who got tapped for VP because there weren't really all that many other options; etc

[Ace Rothstein]

17. The good news is that winning becomes much easier when the other guy is in charge.

Hopefully we can get our people out to vote and at least get some of these statehouses and governor's houses flipped in the next 2 years. I have little hope for the Senate until 2020 and the House until 2022.

[Dems to Win]

16. +1

Our party holds fewer seats today than at any prior time in my 56-year life. If people can't see we need to change so that we can WIN, I just don't know what to say.

[CBHagman]

52. Then we have to learn to love midterms (We tend to win the popular vote in presidential races).

We've got to mobilize people for every election, whether presidential, midterm, state, local, dogcatcher. No sitting it out. No whining that one is not inspired by the candidates. The elections are going to take place no matter what, so it's best to play.

A lot is going to depend on public opinion. The media, most of it for-profit, gave extremely generous coverage to a so-called reality TV star with an extremely dodgy resume -- accusations of fraud, housing discrimination, and much more -- and they're still doing it, and by no means as tough on his ugly present and past as they generally are on Democrats, the frame there being if Democrats win, they lose, and if they lose, they are obliterated. I can guarantee you if Hillary Clinton had won the electoral college we'd be treated to nightly announcements about which member of the GOP criticized her Cabinet picks, and no political honeymoon at all.

So we need to regard ourselves as a political chorus, commenting on every racist move or nominee, every sign of incompetence, every attempt to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable. It's going to be difficult, but I believe there is in most people a basic sense of fairness.

And we're going to have to expand the party, no two ways about it, and steer clear of splitting up the vote. Split up the vote and you get Paul LePage. You get G.W. Bush. You get Trump.

[BobbyDrake]

9. There will always be people who attack the Democratic Party first, even while claiming friendship.

I heard someone describe such folks as political "isolationists" who think they can somehow do it all alone (when they're really planning on doing nothing, waiting for someone else to do it, and then complain about the result). Serial complainers, on other words. They hate that Democrats couldn't magically fix all those things you mentioned, because they know Democrats could have but chose not to, somehow. Yeah, real tinfoil hat bullshit going on there.

[KPN]

10. Umm ... because

this election was a slam dunk that didn't happen

because the Party is losing at every level consistently over the past 6 years

because we're disappointed

There's some good ones. There are more -- but my sense is many here really don't want to hear them, or take them personally when they do, or they are ideologically stuck where they are.

It's all pretty simple. When you keep doing the same thing with the same disappointing or failed results ...

[TonyPDX]

27. Agreed. "None of the Above" won this election in a landslide.

[JTFrog]

124. Then it's no wonder we now live in an idiocracy.

The perfect has always been the enemy of the good.

Anyone who thought "None of the Above" was the best choice this election is a fucking moran.

[brush]

21. It's been proven that Russia hacked into DNC emails. They also funneled info to that weasel Assange

That's been proven. Why are you denying that?

Assange has a grudge against Hillary, and Putin wanted his friend Trump to win. Those are not secrets.

The election was a silent coup by a foreign power that got their favored candidate elected with its meddling. It's called dizinformatsiya. Here's a link: http://www.bing.com/search?q=election%20dezinformatsiya&pc=cosp&ptag=C1N0566D010916A316A5D3C6E&conlogo=CT3210127

And Comey was a big part of it with his last-minute, underhanded shit.

What we need to do going forward is to make stopping and exposing repug cheating and voter suppression a major part of out campaigns from now on.

We will beat them because we outnumber them and our demographic advantage is growing (millions of POCs turn voting age every year).

They know this and know that their elderly base is shrinking, which is why they have to cheat. We actually out voted them by millions of votes.

[onyxw]

140. could you link to/direct me where to look for the proof?

The only proof I've encountered is the letter on behalf of the 17 agencies that didn't provide any details or evidence they found supporting the issuance of the letter. Is that the extent of the proof out there or is there other support details/proof that I missed? Thanks.

[brush]

141. I understand more definitive proof is coming soon

President Obama just ordered a review of Russian hacking and interference in our election.

That was posted on DU today.

[lapucelle]

53. There was no substance to the hacked emails.

Sanders himself acknowledged that fact.

And according to Comey's Congressional testimony, nobody would ever be sitting in a military brig if they had done what Hillary did because no reasonable prosecutor would ever have brought a case.

I'm always amazed when people who rail about the apocryphal powers that be rely largely on right wing talking points and debunked fake news narratives to support dubious assertions.

[brush]

12. Exactly. We actually outnumber the repugs, and won the popular vote by millions

We just have to make stopping voter suppression and Russian hacks and rogue FBI directors a big party of our campaigns from now on.

We have a huge and growing numerical advantage as millions of POCs turn 18 and become eligible to vote every year.

The repugs, a more elderly and dying off party know this and thus have to cheat to win.

We have to concentrate on stopping and exposing their cheating.

[beachbum bob]

15. people have a tendency to whine when things go wrong....human nature

the democratic party is alive and will get better for what we have to endure the next few years...trump/conservative agenda has no mandate in america and we can use that for retaking state legislatures and congress...

best to channel the energy for state and local elections

[nycbos]

18. We have neglected the state and local level for so long we are completely locked out in many states.

Also we have people who don't see the point in turning out in local elections.

[jack_krass]

19. Translation: anybody who didn't thimk HRC was not the most qualified person to.ever

Run for office is "against us", a racist, and a sexist.

The last decade has been catastriphic for the Democratic party, at the State and local levels. Change is needed, and Sanders and leaders like him must lead the charge

[ismnotwasm]

20. Sanders himself was fatally flawed and never vetted

Also, not a Democrat.

[jack_krass]

36. "not a Democrat."

No, but an argument could be made that Sander's views are more inline with Democratic ideals.

[ismnotwasm]

83. How so?

If they were, he would be one, don't you think?

Look, at my most radical, Sanders wouldn't have been left enough for me, so I get what you are saying to a point, but Sanders did all he could to criticize and damage the party-- and he succeeded very well. He did so at a pivitol point, maybe he thought the timing was right, but I thought it was atrocious

[NRQ891]

26. 'is "against us", a racist, and a sexist.'

as well as homophobic and islamophobic

this party has a serious issue of McCarthyism. What was Senator Joe McCarthy's definition of a 'Communist', 'Communist sympathizer', or 'Fellow traveler'? Very simple - anyone who ever disagreed with him or criticized him about anything, ever.

He had a great run until he finally got called out for it, and drank himself to death a few short years later. McCarthyism is a degenerate vice, and ultimately is a destroyer of self, in the end

[ismnotwasm]

28. So calling out sexism and racism

Is a form of MCarthyism?

Damn.

[NRQ891]

29. it is, if you consistently exaggerate

and make a habit and reputation of calling out 15 out of 5 racists or sexists

[ismnotwasm]

45. Ok

[fleabiscuit]

103. Yah, smh

[KPN]

59. Nice to know that someone else feels the "against us"

character of OPs like this one. I voted for Hillary, yet because I feel the Democratic Party has failed, I feel like I'm viewed as the enemy. This stuff is almost as bad as the GOP!

[killbotfactory]

22. The democratic establishment cleared the field for Hillary early on before the primaries.

Super-delegates fell in line early. They knew what her issues with the left were, and knew her image among the american people was a problem. Her campaign staff were concerned about the appearance of corruption within the Clinton foundation, and that her wall street speeches would be a problem. They knew that the email scandal wasn't going to go away.

They knew ALL of this and basically had no plan to address these issues. They relied on the republicans to nominate a vile turd of a candidate so they could pick up voters disgusted by him and hope that people would overlook her negatives.

Well, it almost worked.

All it did was depress voter turnout, which we absolutely CANNOT afford with republican vote repression schemes, and the GOP and their vile turd ran away with it.

Establishment dems had their heads up their asses this election. There is no other way to put it.

We are still just barely recovering from the great recession, and we are running a candidate who gave multiple million dollars speeches to the companies responsible? And the response is "nothing to see here, folks"?

Are the democrats so in bed with big corporate donors that they can't see why this is a problem?

And then you have Obama pushing TPP, and yeah Clinton switched into not supporting TPP, but absolutely no one who wasn't already on board believed her.

[NRQ891]

24. 'And the response is "nothing to see here, folks"?' WRONG!

the exact quote was 'there's a lot of smoke, but no fire'

that's straight out of 'Animal Farm' - that's the kind of thing that could make George Orwell blush

Hillary Clinton admitted “there’s a lot of smoke” when it comes to the Clinton Foundation, but the Democratic presidential candidate insisted “there’s no fire.”

[Dems to Win]

116. America is Greater Than It's Ever Been!

That was like poking a stick in the eye to young people drowning in student loan debt. A slap in the face to everyone who had lost their homes to foreclosure fraud by the big banks while Obama stood by and watched. A smug putdown to everyone in economic despair. A tone deaf statement to Rust Belt families living among empty factories, where they can remember earning a living wage.

Democrats were so focused on how awful Trump was, they felt they had to say the opposite of anything Trump said.

Which resulted in the Democrats sounding out of touch and tone deaf to a lot of people.

This was a disaster, from top to bottom. Democrats are down for the count. We need to recognize this fact, and work hard to recover.

[Dems to Win]

118. And don't forget NAFTA

When one looks at the map, I have to wonder if the entire campaign was meaningless, really -- we lost it when the Dem Establishment coalesced around Hillary before anyone had even thrown their hats into the ring, without realizing the Rust Belt would reject her because Bill had signed NAFTA /PNTR-China. Many voters there blame the Clinton Administration for shipping their jobs away, and she was an integral part of it.

[DeminPennswoods]

23. Dems are fine, just need a plain English pitch

The biggest thing the Dems need to do is figure out how to explain what they're for in plain, simple language that even the dumbest American can understand and relate to.

Yesterday James Clyburn was on TV and asked a question. He gave a thoughtful, thorough and nuanced answer, but it was an anathema of plain speaking.

For example, say something like "I'll treat your money like it comes out of my wallet". That simple statement encompasses everything about good government that it might otherwise take a paragraph to explain.

[CBHagman]

55. I hope you are a canvasser, volunteer, writer, or similar.

Your point about nuance not penetrating is spot on. So the more letters to the editor, op-ed pieces, chats with local voters, etc., the better.

[DeminPennswoods]

93. No, but thanks for the compliment

Brevity is a learned skill. My civil service career was a great education in terse, but informative, writing.
It's a sad development, but many Americans have the attention span of a gerbil. If it's not something quick and pithy, you've lost them. (Possibly this is related to the brain developing differently when trained on computers/tech.) That's why I love Howard Dean when he's a Dem surrogate, his words are short, quick and to the point.

I think Dems need to take the moral high ground, too, by saying things in black and white, like "this is wrong" or "it's wrong" or "that's a lie" or "it's the right thing to do" and so on. Unless you're a sociopath, people instinctively know right from wrong.

[CBHagman]

113. Then a lot of people need to hear from you!

I think Americans generally are encouraged to be fair-minded and so cutting through the crap is a skill we're going to need to shift the national dialogue.

[DeminPennswoods]

137. I do try when the chance presents, but

I'm a lot better at writing than at pithy, contemporaneous talking. I'm just not fast on my feet when talking.

[CBHagman]

149. Then writing it will be.

I tend to think of the right thing to say about 24 hours after I'm confronted with an awkward situation, as when my neighbor observed that people of his generation might not vote because the candidates didn't inspire them. My first thought was that was a rather whiny approach to things, but after a day's thought I realized said nonvoters were ceding power, which they would emphatically not want to do, given the stakes for them and for the country generally.

[brush]

142. Hope you stay involved. Your plain-speaking ideas make so much sense and are easily grasped.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. Think about the fact that she won the popular vote by 2.5 million

that we gained seats in house and senate.

[TheCowsCameHome]

30. ...And now we are on the outside looking in.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. could things have been better, yes? but some of the proposals being put forward

in the name of change, are not progressive or forward looking at all.

For instance, Tim Ryan is far less progressive than Nancy Pelosi.

[NRQ891]

31. 'she won the popular vote' - that and 5 bucks will get you a latte at starbucks

and they'll even let you combine that with other offers or coupons

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. i understand how the EC won, but because she got more votes

it seems to me that the ideas she ran on are popular.

maybe next time we find a way to not let the FBI and the Russian government intervene the way they did this time.

[NRQ891]

37. my point is rather that when you cut it close, you're vulnerable to bad luck

I don't think anyone ever illustrated this point better than Woody Allen, at the beginning of the movie 'Match Point'. Take a look, it's only 41 seconds through this short clip to see it. One of the most profound movie clips I've ever seen

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. When a president from one party has occupied the WH for 8 years

the person from the same party rarely wins, if they win the margin is small.

[NRQ891]

39. I feel the unfortunate part of Hillary's luck

something that she had no control over, was Anthony Weiner's sexting of a 15 year old girl. Even if Comey's letter was malicious, Weiner gave him the cover to do it.

Weiner was her 'Match Point'

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. Comey's letter was malicious. turns out FBI was also investigating trump

and said nothing about that. also, justice dept warned Comey against doing what he did.

it was in complete malice.

[NRQ891]

41. but Weiner made a malicious gesture more safe to make

it's what Comey cited, when he made it

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. weiner was a convenient excuse to do what Comey did. but Comey's little lecture

after he chose not to indict was also malicious.

the FBI intervened in this election, and that is unforgivable.

[NRQ891]

46. my point, is that without the cover of Weiner, Comey might have still felt

malicious, but too fearful of the risk

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. sure. but i'm saying his little editorial, which goes against so many norms of the FBI

was also malicious. there were 2 issues of malice here, one weiner related and one not.

[KPN]

63. Hillary's luck?

There's a lot more that went into and caused this epic fail than Hillary's luck. Introspection and retooling are warranted.

[world wide wally]

34. What we need more than a complete revamping and beating ourselves over the head is

a way to fight these fixed elections with some teeth behind it.
Stop blaming Hillary or whoever and figure out a way to get around gerrymandering to take back some state legislatures and governorship so WE can control the voting process.

[Exilednight]

131. Great idea, but that requires an overhaul of the DNC system.

At some point we have to stop focusing on the gold ring of the executive and build a national network that supports the state level. This is what the RNC has done to an extensive point and it has paid off big.

For this to work, there has to be a unified message across state lines.

[mcar]

50. K&R

The Democratic party needs to avoid the trap of falling into the "falling apart" myth. We need a strong focus on fighting the fascists, 2018 and state races.

[Auggie]

54. We have a big communication/image problem. We've allowed conservatives to brand us.

[Seshat]

56. The results of the last three elections makes it clear that something is not working.

The Democratic Party has lost the House, the Senate and now the presidency. Its members control a minority of state houses and governors mansions.

In many ways this post election discussion has devolved into a proxy battle between Sanders supporters saying 'I told you so' and Clinton supporters unwilling to believe that a different candidate or better choices made by their candidate would have made a difference.

That doesn't bode well for the future of the Democratic Party or the country.

[ismnotwasm]

73. Actually no

I understand we all want to understand what happened but there a number of factors. What 'sides" are doing is debating which factors contributed the most. The Democratic Party itself cannot align itself with racist ideology, for instance, or support privatization of Medicare, or any number of fatally flawed Republican ideas. We under-estimated the anger of hard core Republicans who hated, HATED president Obama, and being the big tent party, when we tried to present a united, cohesive message, there were too many on the left who hated him, and dispised Hillary Clinton as well.

The party is not any more flawed than any other party and far better than most, but by its very nature it attracts people who simply don't like it and want it to be something else.

[Seshat]

109. It was not so long ago that Democrats were chortling over GOP disfunctional.

Ismnotwasm wrote. "The party is not any more flawed than any other party and far better than most, but by its very nature it attracts people who simply don't like it and want it to be something else."

It seems to me that this election has brought out the divide between the "New Democrats" who adopt a more pro-business, and at the same time more socially liberal outlook and those who cherish above all, FDRs vision of economic justice while not denying the same social justice What's ironic is that the guy who articulated the views closest to FDR's is not a member of his party. That's how far from its roots the Democratic Party has gone.

One of the problems with a constitutional model like ours is that like it or not we HAVE to form these big tent parties in order to attain a governing majority. Yet it seems that some Democrats seem determined to purge people who do not agree with them on every issue--or even on what emphasis to place on those issues they do agree on. That seems to me a path to disaster.

[DesertRat]

94. The Democratic party candidate received 2.5 MILLION more votes

than the "winner." Interesting that you decided to join DU just to post that.

[Seshat]

108. Was anything I posted factually inaccurate?

I agree that Clinton won the popular vote vote and by a substantial margin. That gives me some hope that this country is not totally lost but it does not change the fact that the Democratic Party has performed abysmally over the past six years.

I ask you, do the Democrats control the House? No. Do we control the Senate? No. In how many states do we control both the governors mansion and the legislature? Don't ask it's too depressing. Finally Did we win the presidency? No. In fact the worst possible Republican candidate imaginable.

is that acceptable to you?

[jalan48]

57. I think if you drop the word "fatally" it makes sense.

How did we do nationally in all races? The Republicans now control all the branches of government at the federal level. Let's not pretend things are OK. Take away the west coast states and some in the NE and what do you see?

[mr_liberal]

58. "Think Racism/Sexism". That is one of the flaws.

Just screaming that all the time is political correctness, thats one of the things Trump ran against.

[andym]

61. Fatal perhaps not, but GOP controls 240/435 House, 52/100 Senate, President, 34/50 Governors, 31/49

statehouses after this election with 55.7% of state legislators nationwide (ballotopedia). Yikes. So the Democratic Party is in deep trouble. Up until this election, the possibility of the gaining Senate and holding the Presidency were the bright spots. Yikes. Democrats have 25 Senate seats (including 2 indies) up for re-election versus 8 GOP seats in 2018, so loss of Senate seats is widely expected. The Democratic Party is in full retreat nationwide, except in the West and the Northeast where it is dominant. Whichever party controls the state houses and governorships in 2020 will control gerrymandering and future congressional power. Doesn't look good at this moment. So something is very very wrong. Conservative economic ideology is very popular, and populism, one of the few ways to break through traditional ideology has been seized by Trump for the GOP.

Not only will the Supreme Court go back to it's right tilt, but likely will have a conservative majority. Decisions like Citizen's United which enshrine the ability of the rich to influence elections will be even strengthened diminishing Democrats' chances of taking back power.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. besides obama, we have more or less been in this position for years

it took the loss of the white house for us to realize this.

[andym]

67. With everyone on DU/Kos and other sites so focused on the Presidency

it's not very surprising that so little attention is paid elsewhere. The GOP funded by very strategic well-funded activists is on the verge of absolute dominance, because they have been executing at all levels.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. yes, plus we think we are smarter than we actually are

a lot of people this election fell for the fake news sites, including liberals who voted for Stein/Johnson etc.

[andym]

80. No doubt, but this Presidential election, the GOP got the opponent they wanted

They had a long term plan to set up Hillary Clinton for failure (starting in 2013) and it worked out very well for them. They managed to get her favorables and trust ratings under 50% by mid 2015, and below 40% in time for the election-- that made her a weak candidate from the point of view of the political professionals. And some would argue the Democrats really had no really strong alternative candidate available. Yet, if it were not for Comey, she would have still won against an even weaker candidate, Trump. People voting for alternative candidates erred, as well as people not voting for President at all (a very large number). But the loss of the Presidency is very bad news indeed for the Democratic Party and the nation, because the Presidecy was the last barrier to GOP dominance.

[LostOne4Ever]

64. We lost the presidency, both houses of congress, soon the judicial,

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]Most governorships and most state legislatures.

The latter has allowed the Republicans to suppress our vote and gerrymander themselves to a point it will be extremely hard to get the house back, and the Dems allowed it to happen.

How is that not fatally flawed?[/font]

[ismnotwasm]

66. Why do you think the Democratic Party "allowed" that to happen?

[LostOne4Ever]

69. Too focused on the presidency and not enough on the state level. Nt

[ismnotwasm]

75. That is indeed a problem

This was a particularly contentious primary as a general perception, But at MY state level, I know Democrats were working very hard

[LostOne4Ever]

77. I just think that

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]In 2012 there were more votes for democrats for congress than Repubs, but the Repubs sent in more representatives.

This should have been a giant wake up call. [/font]

[ismnotwasm]

79. Could you clarify please?

[LostOne4Ever]

87. I mean after 2012 more resources should have been put to getting legislatures and governors

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]Then we could have been in better shape at stopping voter suppression and get people in place to undo the Gerry-mandering with the next census.

My district was supposed to be the 6th most likely district to flip dem for Pete Gallego. But the Republicans started sending in massive amounts of funding and ended up defeating Pete.

We are always going to be at a disadvantage (overall-your area could be different from mine) if we don't address this issue more at the local level.

If what you mean is about 2012, here is a story on it.[/font]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2012/11/09/house-democrats-got-more-votes-than-house-republicans-yet-boehner-says-hes-got-a-mandate/?client=safari

[jalan48]

71. Poor leadership-Debbie Wassermann Schultz.

[ismnotwasm]

78. Oh for Gods sake

The DNC is not that powerful, nor is it the boogy man people like to think it is.

Here is my favorite article on the whole debacle

http://qz.com/834735/want-to-understand-how-trump-happened-study-quantum-physics/

[jalan48]

82. Oh yeah-she's a real gem. Pay Day loan anyone?

[ismnotwasm]

84. *sigh*

[jalan48]

86. How about Donna Brazile? She's good with questions I've heard.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. There is a fundemental ideologigal economic divide in the party....

You can see it every time someone mentions "Jobs" and immediately it's equated with "Education". Other phrases include, "Workers need to train for the jobs of the 21st century."

This goes back to a neoliberal policy of globalism where low skilled factory jobs are outsourced to the Third World while high paying high-tech jobs are done here by people who don't even have to commute, They have a home office and can watch the family pooch watering the begonias from their own window.

This led to the Democratic Party tossing unions under the bus in favor of the tech sector on NASDAQ and the world financial players.

Then all the high paying / high-tech jobs were outsourced to India. (Oops!)

One of the problems in The Beltway is you are NEVER to admit you made a mistake so we are stuck with this crap.

Remember Republicans accusing Dems of having a "pre-9/11 mentality"? Well, we need a "pre-Reagan mentality". This would include the top tax rate of 70% and Democrats not using terms like "far left" as if they're terrified of being called commies for saying workers deserve a raise.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. how are you going to bring back manufacturing jobs that are increasingly being automated?

i think that is a legit question that DJT and Sanders never actually answered.

a lot of the manufacturing jobs have been returning, but due to automation they are hiring 1/1000th of the people they used to.

a lot of white color jobs will also soon disappear due to automation.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

74. Other countries do it because they aren't fixated on protecting the rich.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. other countries do what specifically? prevent automation?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. The don't argue the false choice between outsourcing and automation.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. But it isn't a false choice in the manufacturing realm

[Spitfire of ATJ]

105. Sure it is. It's right up there with the claim that American labor expects too much.

[Garrett78]

111. Folks really need to understand that manufacturing in the US is practically at an all-time high.

But automation means way fewer people are needed. And wages have been stagnant.

Jobs aren't coming back unless the US does away with labor standards, the minimum wage, etc.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

112. Yes, every expert says so, hence I believe this to be true

[ismnotwasm]

81. All the high paying/high tech jobs were out-sourced to India?

Oh come on.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

97. Yup. The whole Neoliberal model blew up in their face....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/high-tech-entrepreneurs-flock-india/

http://www.rense.com/general44/yyytt.htm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-americas-top-technology-jobs-are-going-to-indian-executives-1439338706

[INdemo]

85. The Democratic Party is flawed

There have been 2 examples since the total ass kicking the Democrats just took.
With Pelosi and Chuck Schumer being elected as Democratic leaders in Congress Democrats are not seeking change at all
The total Dominance by the Republicans in 2014 should have convinced Democrats that hell yes we need cahnge but guess what not this time it ain't gonna happen.
So hell yes the Democratic party is flawed and the millennials tried very hard to convince the Democratic party we needed real change but they preferred the status quo.
Democrats fear change. They fear transferring the power to the young generation that have fresh ideas,and issues that directly affect them/
Understand this, When Obama won his first election he talked about "Change we can believe in" the first time voters here in 2016 were 10 years old then.For those that elected him they really believed him.
Oh yes Obama has done some great things but has he brought us real change? Obama and a Democratic Control Congress allowed Repukes to walk all over them and that brought about the huge ass kicking of 2014
Through Obama's efforts he saved our economy,he saved millions of jobs by saving GM.
He got a Health Care bill that was written by the Insurance lobbyists and Insurance companies where the biggest advantage is those with per-existing conditions now qualify..Other than that not much to brag about.
Well we were promised change as Obama started his 2nd term but the biggest change we really saw was TPP Trade Bill he was trying to force onto us that was/is a jobs killing bill.
So here are some reverences that might answer your question/s

How Stupid Has the Democratic Party Become?
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2015/11/how-stupid-has-democratic-party-become

Harry Truman Quotes when he said something like "When Democrats at like Republicans they'll vote for the Republican every time"
How true was that in 2010 and 2014 and hell yes even 2016.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025769753

If the Democratic party would have had their act together like the Obama campaign team did in 2008 & 2012 we would not be having this discussion.

[LittleBlue]

88. Because so many of us warned of the dangers of nominating Hillary

And so few listened. Felt like every time one of us tried to explain how Hillary was Trump's only plausible path to the White House (based on polling and historical analysis), we were dismissed with gender- and race-charged attacks on our character. "Are you white?" and "Are you male?" was the standard attack line, insinuating that our (ultimately correct) analysis was based solely on our skin color and sex organs. It was disgusting.

If you don't change, Trump will have 60 senate seats after 2018 and will literally pass whatever he wants. This party is fatally flawed if it can't win over a man who openly brags of sexual assault, his hot daughter, mocking the disabled, calling war heroes cowards, etc.

Change or die. That's your choice. And end the cynical race and gender baiting in exchange for a unifying message of jobs, healthcare and affordable education. That's a winner. Steinem's infamous "Women vote Bernie because the boys do it" is, as we now see, a massive loser.

[jack_krass]

91. end the cynical race and gender baiting in exchange for a unifying message of jobs, healthcare a

Affordable education"

Well said and bears repeating. The Democratic party needs a simplify and focus on big ideas like those you mention. If we do this we win big.

[Dems to Win]

119. Thank you. Agree 100% nt

[ananda]

89. The Democratic Party establishment literally ..

.. does not have the fire and the fight to take on the
Reeps in any efficient, meaningful way.

They have to turn into pugnacious pitbulls with claws
like snapping turtles that never give in or give up.

[deurbano]

90. And too many supposedly on OUR side not only applied a ridiculous purity test, but actually repeated

and widely spread ugly right wing lies. My 14-year-old daughter said she got in an argument with two of her friends recently about the differences between Clinton and Trump... and the two kids, both children of "progressive" San Francisco parents, insisted Clinton was a corrupt criminal. When asked for "evidence," the only thing they could come up with was "email," and they didn't even have any details on that. Clinton had an avalanche of bullshit coming at her from both the right and the left, a media that regurgitated and dramatically amplified the slightest hint of a suggestion of whatever seemed like it might have a negative impact (even when eventually proven false), a corrupt FBI with a partisan agenda (this was a coup), Republican legislators using the power of their positions in Congress solely to bring down her approval ratings, massive voter suppression, racism and sexism, etc...

My point is some (obviously not all) of the people who see the party "falling apart" are the very ones who undermined her from the left. I voted for Sanders when he was running for governor of Vermont and I consider my perspective to be closer to his than Clinton's, but I voted for her in the primary because I grew to believe she was more prepared and would be more competent at the actual governing. I was glad the party platform was pushed to the left, but the delusional thinking that led too many to assume Sanders could still prevail at the convention (which I don't feel his campaign initially did enough to discourage) and the behavior by the CA delegation and other malcontents-- who even mimicked the Trump ass wipes by shouting "Lock her up!" (for what???!!!)-- contributed to the disastrous outcome of a very close election. (And the Democratic Party does not need the advice of people too deluded to see the Grand Canyon of a difference between Clinton and that... thing.)

[JI7]

92. i think some people don't like the minority influence in the party

[hz-xlnc]

95. we see the tactics

used by the other side and we dont have anyone willing to counter them. the GOP moves openly in public with an anti-american agenda and the whole party needs an overhaul because for the last 30 years they have watched this fraud develop and in many cases assisted and participated in it

[Gothmog]

98. The Democratic Party is not broken or flawed

Over the long term the demographic trends are supporting the Democratic Party

[jack_krass]

107. Nope. When whites become a minority, conservative POC will eventually take over the Republucan

Party.

Conservatism is a human trait, not a white trait.

Another reason Democrats must appeal to all working and liberal people.

[Beartracks]

133. This. Thanks for making an excellent point.

The whole Republicans-are-old-white-Christian-males thing is just too wishfully simplistic and ill-informed.

People that make blanket generalizations like that can't mount an effective counter-attack.

===========

[betsuni]

100. K&R

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

101. Because it is.

The Democratic Party has been getting its ass kicked in elections that it should have won.

[hrmjustin]

102. Remember there are people who want to steer the party on different directions.

We have room for improvement but I think those who always want to go to the left or the center all the time do not really understand the Democratic Party.

[Exilednight]

106. I'll tackle these one by one.

Think about the Russian hacks.

The DNC did not take their cyber security serious. Every political party in this country should expect foreign entities to attempt to hack their servers and expose their secrets. I will also add that the emails showed a bias towards Hillary by DWS. What does Hillary and the DNC do? They get rid of Debbie as chair and Hillary gives her an honorary spot on her campaign. Not only did the emails show a bias, Hillary showed to be tone deaf to the masses that voted for Sanders.

Think about Comey.

What about Comey? Hillary is terrible at political judo. Bill gets impeached by the Senate and his approval rating skyrockets. In 2008 Hillary hits Obama with an inexperience campaign and Obama's crowds grow larger. A good politician knows how to deal with these situations.

Think Racism/Sexism.

It's the only battle she actually put up a front on, and even that was a halfhearted defense.

[Cha]

110. Agenda.. they want to butt themselves in and take

the glory away from Hillary.

Voter Suppression, Voter Purging, Yes Comey, Demonizing her in the Primary, drumpf picking up on the lying accusations, Russian hacking..

THE M$M MISOGYNIST ATTITUDE ON HILLARY AND DRAGGING THE GD EMAILS TO FUCKING DEATH WHILE GIVING THE SEXUAL PREDATOR A FUCKING PASS.

[BobbyDrake]

114. The problem is people who have contributed nothing to build this party thinking they own it.

They are the herpes of politics. They show up every few years (unfortunately, presidential election years) to remind us all why we were glad they were gone.

[LexVegas]

117. People are worried that white males have a diminishing role in the party. nt

[Dems to Win]

120. No, we're concerned that too many white men and the women that love them feel pushed out of theparty

by ugly rhetoric like 'Fuck the White Working Class'

[boston bean]

121. LOL, yeah, hillary said throughout the campaign as did all her surrogates

"fuck the white working class"!

LMAO.

[Dems to Win]

125. One of Hillary's surrogates doesn't think a white person belongs as DNC chair

Statements like this from Democratic leaders, while well-intentioned, don't help white Americans feel welcome in the Democratic Party:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/304589-granholm-dnc-doesnt-need-57-year-old-white-woman-at-helm

Former Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm said Sunday the Democratic National Committee needs a leader who represents "rising America," suggesting the committee appoint a minority to the position.

"I think that the DNC needs to have leadership that reflects this rising America and you know, a 57-year-old white woman may not be the person," she told MSNBC's Hallie Jackson.

As a 55 year old white American woman, I hear this and wonder if there is any place at all for me in the Democratic Party's vision of America.

As far as the "Fuck the White Working Class," it was the title of long lived thread on a website that is exclusive for Democrats and proudly reflects Democratic values.

[boston bean]

126. Wow, your interests must be so different than a minorities huh. What puts you at such odds

that you feel left out?

[Dems to Win]

136. Pasty white skin

I come from a long line of white working class Americans. They are my people.

[FSogol]

122. They are people who post here daily and their mission is to split and divide us.

It is pretty obvious.

[BobbyDrake]

123. "Haters to the left"

Now we know why they're such disagreeable and friendless people.

[guillaumeb]

127. And lack of voter enthusiasm?

Is that also a myth?

[yodermon]

128. Issue for issue, they are not fatally flawed. The flaw is the CORPORATE DONORS and MONEY

This is the biggest reason Bernie is not a Democrat.

Why people don't see this, or gloss over it I will never understand.

Bernie proved you can raise money without Corporate donors.

And "Oh but he lost!" is such a pathetic head-in-the-sand response. He demonstrated a hunger and a trend in the electorate that Democrats should be keen to harness. I think Schumer understands this.

[taught_me_patience]

129. Democrats don't need to do anything

Just sit back and wait. The jobs wont materialize, people will lose health care, and there will be a big fight over medicare. The voters will naturally swing back in four to eight years.

[Exilednight]

130. This one is easy.

We lost to the worst candidate in history.

We lost the Senate.

We lost the House.

We lost control of states.

We lost the Supreme Court.

This question is akin to believing nothing as wrong with your body as your organs shut down one by one.

[rainy]

132. Here's why:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38662-the-private-vice-of-greed-undermines-public-virtue

[Ace Rothstein]

134. Because it isn't just about the Presidency.

Stop focusing so much on one office when we're getting our asses kicked across the country.

[aikoaiko]

135. You're correct. The Party isn't fatally flawed or falling apart, but it needs to some reflecting.

Let's say you're correct that only those three things you mentioned cost us the GE

1. Regarding the hacked HRC Campaign emails: The Russian hacks revealed stupid and sketchy conversations by Clinton staff. That's a discipline issue and should have been controlled. It is elementary that anything you write in email can be exposed and used against you and your candidate. This was under our control and hubris led to poor decisions.

2. Regarding Comey: Weinergate gave Comey the opportunity to do what he did. People suggested that Huma rid herself of The Weiner because he could be used to take Huma or HRC down as early as 2011. We didn't make the hard decisions. Again, because of hubris, we failed to see The Weiner landmine.

3. Racism and Sexism: For the explicit racist and sexist, there is not much for a Democrat to do in a campaign, but for the many who simply were not bothered by Trump's racism and sexism because it doesn't affect them, they could be reached and we didn't do a good job of inspiring white people, especially white men to embrace social justice even if it doesn't impact them -- even if it hurts them in some ways. I, for one, was impressed with HRCs strategy of explicit social justice and how far it got her. It was a solid strategy in the primary and by October I was convinced it would work in the GE. HRC led with social justice and followed with a strong economic message, but it didn't resonate enough with white men and women.

I hope there is a message and messenger out there who can maintain the positive work that HRC has done to make social justice issues explicit and provide the two-fold message to white men and women that they can help achieve social justice and that their social and economic lives will improve.

[jalan48]

138. Maybe because Democrats got their asses kicked at all levels of government in 2016?

[Coyotl]

139. Think about our massive victory at the polls.

RETWEET image.

[Kotya]

147. What is that graphic supposed to mean?

What is it supposed to prove? Why am I being asked to retweet it?

Trump got 4.4 million votes in California, a state he lost 63-32%. He got 2.7 million votes in New York, a state he lost 60-37%

I see this graphic all over the place. I'm not sure what the point of it is.

[Coyotl]

148. Exactly what it says and shows, of course.

Just read it and you know.

A subtext may have eluded you though. Trump said there were millions of illegal voters. Well, he said in effect that there were as many illegal voters as he had votes in a dozen states. This also illustrates how absurd his stupid lies are. It also needs to be seen by thepeople who are in denial aboutlosing the popular vote. they need to see how immense that loss is, what 2% of the vote looks like in terms of state sizes.

[Crunchy Frog]

143. Because it's been in a long, slow suicide spiral

My entire adult life, and it never seems to learn anything or adapt to changing circumstances.

They've been getting the crap beaten out of them for decades, and all they've done is triangulate, capitulate, apologize for themselves, and go along to get along.

Our party has sat and watched as the rethugs have amassed ever greater power, brazenly stolen elections, lied us into wars, and have become more brazen and daring with each cycle.

The party has refused to recognize or acknowledge changes in the political landscape, and has continued to run campaigns that take the new political realities into consideration.

Now our party has snached defeat out of the arms of victory, and handed this country over to Donald Trump on a silver platter.

The Rethugs may now be in a position to solidify their hold on power indefinitely, stacking courts and creating institutions that will ensure never attain power in this country again. They may soon control enough states to begin remaking the Constitution.

You're damn right I think the party is fatally flawed.

Just keep telling yourself everything's fine, though. See how it works out for you.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

144. The Republican Party is the flawed party

Flawed in terms of serving the people. Winning elections doesn't make them good. The Republican Party seems to be stocked full of the baddest of the bad people. Democrats worse trait is not doing a good job of making it clear to the public how they are being played by the Republicans. I guess they have a hard time with that because Republicans have control over a lot of media outlets. I think the Dems need to do something to shine a flood light on the truth. They need to catch the Republicans knee deep in some wicked shit and then tell the world about it.

[Cha]

145. 'cause.. agenda.. that has nothing to do

with reality.