2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAs a black loyal Democrat, I say SCREW the white working class who insist on voting Republican
Screw them and leave them to themselves.
If I hear one more person insist that those folks aren't bigots but are just misguided souls who don't understand that they are voting against their interests and we must be patient and not antagonize them and especially don't get them riled up by being too obvious with our "identity politics" (i.e., acting like women and people of color are a valuable part of the coalition). Bullshit. They may be voting against their ECONOMIC interests, but they have other interests, too, interests that obviously substantially outweigh those economic concerns and they vote THOSE interests over and over. And its obvious that those interests are, for the most part, directly antithetical to mine. And the only way to assuage them is to kick me and people like me to the curb.
There are plenty - PLENTY - of Democratic voters who, if treated with even a minimum amount of respect and interest, will vote Democratic and walk through fire for the party. I am sick and tired, after years of loyally supporting the Democrats through thick and thin, even when they take us for granted, hearing some Democrats continue to insist that the party must fall all over itself chasing around after angry white men, racist white working class. Oh yes, yes, I know it's verboten to call them racist - they're just upset and confused and worried about jobs, blah, blah, blah . . . screw that, too. But funny thing - there are plenty of black and brown folk living in those same states facing the same economic woes and THEY didn't vote for Trump. So this isn't about economics.
Black and brown and lots of white voters will vote Democratic but need to be reached, need help overcoming cynicism and distrust (gee, I wonder why they feel that way) and - LISTEN TO THIS - desperately need help fighting and navigating the massive voter suppression that targets us.
So, please spare me having to listen to one more sentence about how we must set aside our interests and help the party attract people who have demonstrated election after election that they have no interest in aligning with a party that embraces us. If you have one group of people voting 50-60% for Trump and the Republicans and another group who vote 90+% for Hillary and the Democrats, why would you go begging the first group to change their minds and come over to our side when you can just reach out and encourage more of the second group who are a sure thing to go to the polls?
So, please. Stop trying to drag bigots into my party. I don't want them and I'm not going to move out of the way to make room for them. So just stop it.
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HassleCat
(6,409 posts)We don't need them or their votes. We're happy just as we are.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)We just have to make the effort to get them to vote. And that's not going to happen if we spend our time and resources dragging people who hate them into the party.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)But Trump got more of the Black, Asian, and Hispanic votes than Romney.
Here is the breakdown according to Exit Polls published by the NYT:
White
Romney- 59%
Trump- 58%
Black
Trump- 8%
Romney- 6%
Hispanic/Latino
Trump- 29%
Romney- 27%
Asian
Trump- 29%
Romney- 26%
Other
Romney- 38%
Trump- 37%
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html
Given this info, why is there thread after thread blaming white people for the 2016 results?
yardwork
(64,115 posts)White people elected Trump. White people chose Trump by a huge margin. People of color voted for Clinton by huge margins.
White people are clearly responsible for electing Trump.
The OP is pointing out that the Democrats can't turn our backs on the core constituency that actually supports Democrats.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Oh wait... 
yardwork
(64,115 posts)White people chose Romney by huge margins. It looks to me like the voter suppression the Republican controlled states have imposed over the past four years worked. In North Carolina, there was a sustained effort to prevent black people from voting. Same thing across the nation. Looks like enough people of color were kept from the polls for Trump to eke out an EC win.
Embracing the white supremacists who will never, ever vote Democratic is not a good strategy for Democrats.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Whites who voted for Obama twice are still with the Coalition in higher numbers in 2016 than in 2012. So why all the focus on white voters only? We need to be asking ourselves why we lost so many non-white voters.
Or better yet, why not leave voters of all races alone, and focus on coming up with better candidates 
yardwork
(64,115 posts)Trump was elected on a wave of white supremacy.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)he got 1% LOWER white voters than Romney did. How did a wave a white supremacy get him elected? Meanwhile, he got MORE black, hispanic and asian voters than Romney did. Why are you blaming whites?
yardwork
(64,115 posts)As white people, we own this.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)for trump getting LESS white voters than Romney just as I take no responsibility for trump getting MORE black, asian and hispanic votes. Your premise is ridiculous.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)Thanks to voter suppression, fewer African Americans were able to vote in 2016 compared to 2012. Trump got fewer black votes than Romney.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I haven't seen them at all. How whites (less of whom voted for trump than romney) are responsible for trump is not clear.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I don't own shit.
JHan
(10,173 posts)Read here:
It was a brilliant tactical strategy and frightening. The democrats had no answer to this:
"We have three major voter suppression operations under way,” says a senior official. They’re aimed at three groups Clinton needs to win overwhelmingly: idealistic white liberals, young women, and African Americans. Trump’s invocation at the debate of Clinton’s WikiLeaks e-mails and support for the Trans-Pacific Partnership was designed to turn off Sanders supporters. The parade of women who say they were sexually assaulted by Bill Clinton and harassed or threatened by Hillary is meant to undermine her appeal to young women. And her 1996 suggestion that some African American males are “super predators” is the basis of a below-the-radar effort to discourage infrequent black voters from showing up at the polls—particularly in Florida."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go
JHan
(10,173 posts)by texting.
*facepalm*
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,654 posts)Stick to the platform. Ignore race.
BLM though I think hurt us all badly because of our media. We have to remember the media!!!
griloco
(842 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Yes, of course... rational thought and reason works effectively with idiots and bigots.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Response to EffieBlack (Original post)
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brush
(57,407 posts)the Dem party, not all white people.
Let's get a grip, folks. We have no obligation to welcome people into our party who vote for racists.
Clinton clearly won the most voters over. Trump only "won" because FBI, Putin and Assange misinformation, underhandedness and hacking drew enough aforementioned whites who welcomed Trump's racist dog whistles.
No, we don't want them.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)The rust belt white blue collar workers being bashed all over the place as supposed racists didn't have any problems voting for Obama twice but Democrats lost a lot of them to Trump this time around. If they were REALLY racists they sure as hell would not have voted for Obama, now would they? People need to dig their head out of their rectum and stop attacking voters. IT IS OFFENSIVE!
brush
(57,407 posts)There was much vote suppression that kept many POCs from voting.
And I'm not one to excuse people for voting for a clearly racist campaign, even if they were allegedly desperate.
People of color know what desperation really is and don't succumb to voting for racist dog whistling candidates.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Many of the white rural voters in the rust belt voted for Obama twice but voted for Trump this time. How on earth does it make any kind of sense at all that these voters are racist?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Obama, they can't be bigots.
First of all, we don't know that these people voted for Obama. Some of them say they did, but I have no reason to believe them. Most of them don't make such a claim, however.
Moreover, racists and bigots vote for black people sometimes, if they think it's in their interest. Sometimes they do it to prove they're not bigots. Sometimes they do it for other reasons.
Voting for Obama does not make someone not a bigot. Voting for an avowed racist who is supported by the Ku Klux Klan DOES make one either a bigot or someone who is perfectly comfortable with bigotry and doesn't give a shit about the impact that bigotry has on people of color.
So please stop with the "The voted for Obama so they can't be bigots."
mythology
(9,527 posts)Then it's equally ridiculous to assume that they must be racist if they voted for Trump. You're making an assumption based on what you want to be true. It's simplistic thinking.
There's at least a good case for saying if a group of people voted for Obama they aren't overt KKK level racists. As such, even if they are subtly racist, why shouldn't we reach out to the part of them that was willing to vote for a black guy? We just saw what happens when they don't feel like we care about them. It isn't exactly a favorable outcome.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Racists can vote for a black person if they think it's in their interest to do so.
Racists hire black people. They live next to them. They do business with them. Hell, racists have been SLEEPING with black people for centuries. They certainly also can vote for them.
But that said, most Trump voters did NOT vote for Obama, so that argument is a red herring ...
brush
(57,407 posts)from voting and that made the difference. Why do you think repugs put all that time and effort into vote suppression on all levels from gutting the voting rights admendment to ID requirement laws that weren't in place before to caging to misinformation campaigns as to voting date and polling location to cutting out early voting and drastically cutting polling locations in POC communities and to cutting the number of voting machines in the reduced number of polling places which created long voting lines which discouraged many from standing in hours-long lines.
Repugs do that stuff because if works. It decreases the vote in Clinton voter neighborhoods. They also make sure there are plenty of polling places and voting machines in white areas. They pull all the dirty tricks in the book and you should be aware of that.
I believe Trumps racist dog whistles also bought out many whites who didn't vote before, and who wanted "their country back", as has been said many time before.
And then there is a distinct possibility that voting machines were hacked, which is why Jill Stein, of all people, is asking for recounts (she's actually trying to appease people so they won't call her the new Ralph Nader as her votes would have put Hillary, who got her share of white voters, over the top, even with all the repug machinations.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)When it came time to choose whom to line up with, they chose to line up with other whites.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Now why do you think that is?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Racism is not an either or - it's a continuum.
It's too bad that you're so offended because I am calling certain Trump voters racist. If you didn't vote for Trump, I'm not really sure why you are so defensive of those who did - while you seem to be totally oblivious to how offended people IN YOUR OWN PARTY are at being told over and over and over that we must shut up, move over and make room for people who have demonstrated that they their interests conflict with ours. And people who vote for a man who so blatantly told the world what he thinks of us AND who don't seem to care that they have aligned themselves with the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis have no one but themselves to blame if people now believe they are bigots or so tolerant of bigotry that they might as well be.
Why are you so quick to line up with Trump voters while completely ignoring what many of your fellow Democrats are saying? Why are you so offended that THEY might be offended but you don't seem to care at all about how WE feel about all of this?
As I said, spare me - I'm tired of it and I'm not going to sit quietly while the people in my party treat me and people like me like crap and tell us that WE have to be careful not to offend people who consistently offend us. And I am OFFENDED by ANYONE who voted for Trump. Period.
Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #11)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)Not one of those threads EVER said ALL whites, rural or otherwise were racist.
mcar
(43,454 posts)People who voted for Trump voted, knowingly, for hate.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)It didn't say racist whites, republican whites, etc...is just said whites.
You deleted the post. It was here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512634533
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)say untrue things, as neither IT nor I ever said ALL whites
I removed it because I am being harassed
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I was not the only one who found it offensive. This is not Latest Breaking News, so if you post an inflammatory article like that was you should have used a different thread title and not put it in the thread title like it was.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)I have never in my life made an absolute statement like that when it comes to any racial group. and the article did not do so either.
That title was FAR less offensive than many other threads that I did NOT post.
such as
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512622203
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2635581
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2629002
You are erecting a strawman to batter me with, a strawman that is based on an pure falsehood, and also slurring me. You are harassing me over something I did not do.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Go ahead and write it in the message field (Not in the post title because it will anger people if it's there).
Actually, nevermind...I looked in my browsing history and found it.
This was the title of your thread and the title of the article:
"Identity politics didn’t cost Democrats the election. White people did."
Nowhere does that title say Trump voters or white Republicans cost the election. It says "White people did." Not some white people. Not a few white people...just "white people."
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)it never said ALL
you are really beyond the pale with this harassment, and I feel, given the subject, that it tinged in bad ways
I will not be browbeaten into submission over something I never did
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/310531/identity-politics-didnt-cost-democrats-election-white-people-did/
But, see, it’s only identity politics if you’re not the default identity.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Your thread title was "Identity politics didn't cost Democrats the election. White people did."
When a group is blamed for costing Democrats the election and it does not specify then it implies ALL of the group.
Imagine the outrage if someone started a thread entitled "Terrorism didn't cause 9/11. Muslims did."
You do NOT lump people together and expect people not to get offended and pissed.
You should have just gone in and edited your damn OP to change the title and then note that the title is offensive to some but you wanted to share the article. That would have prevented people getting offended, but instead you argued with people as if they were wrong for being offended by the thread title. You brought that ire onto yourself by not handling the outrage properly.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)You are obviously wilfully ignoring the article in toto and bending language to try to put words in my mouth. Also, the arrogance of you suggesting you are "correcting me" is complete rot. The title is totally valid given the article, i already posted the very heart of it.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)And if you honestly believe that debating and discussing an issue on a discussion forum is harassment then perhaps you should either stick to reading only or stop responding to my posts.
Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #11)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,375 posts)I'm not feeling charitable either. I have never voted for a Republican, ever. Texas is legalizing fetus funerals, we are talking mass deportation, national stop and frisk, a Muslim registry, and I am supposed to cry for people who no longer make $20 an hour with a high school education? I made $6.25 after getting a Masters in 1997. I don't remember them voting to help me.
sheshe2
(87,309 posts)Love you. I am tired of their whine.
Starry Messenger
(32,375 posts)So tired this month. Thinking of you too. xo
sheshe2
(87,309 posts)I am so very tired too. Hugs Starry
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)yet don't give half a shit about how deeply these people offend US. Instead, they tell us to shut up about it already, we're making too much noise and might drive them away.
Talk about OFFENSIVE...
sheshe2
(87,309 posts)Are they really Dems? I doubt it. Anyone that rolls over like a puppy and gets their bellie scratched and soothed by a misogynist, sexist, racist, xenophobic POS is no democrat, Fuck them.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
yuiyoshida
(42,691 posts)
sheshe2
(87,309 posts)At their racist shit.
SidDithers
(44,252 posts)
Sid
NanceGreggs
(27,835 posts)
betsuni
(27,255 posts)
Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)mia
(8,420 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I'm actually preaching Democratic unity, not division. I'm saying that Democrats should support and reach out to Democratic voters instead of running around trying to convince Republican voters to come over to our side since the reason they're not voting Democratic is because they don't like a significant segment of the people in the Democratic party. And the only way to get them to vote Democratic is to jettison those people they don't like.
Nonstarter for me.
mia
(8,420 posts)You may think you aren't. Color wars keep everyone down.
I'm not engaging in "color wars" - and I am sick and tired of people accusing black of doing so when we finally stand up and call bullshit. Color wars have been played for decades ON US, not BY US. And this last election was Color Wars personified. WHITE PEOPLE put a racist into the White House. Not all white people, of course, but a significant number of them did. And they did it with full knowledge that he is a racist, that he is supported by racists and that he fully intended to inflict his racist policies and attitudes on people of color.
And now you come around wringing your hands and saying, "Oh, please be sympathetic to them. They're just concerned about their jobs." BULLSHIT.
So do not come in here and tell me that *I* am engaging in color wars. If you want to line up with and and sympathize with and defend bigoted white Republicans against your fellow Democrats, that's your prerogative. But recognize that that is the very essence of the "color wars" of which you complain.
Identity politics, indeed... on full display on DU by supposed progressive Democrats... Very sad.
mia
(8,420 posts)You are much more than the color of your skin. We're all concerned about our jobs. We all want to survive. We all care about the survival of our children and our grandchildren.
alittlelark
(18,912 posts)...it is a tragic fact of life. Denying it is WRONG
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)Racists reduce us PoC, no matter how accomplished, intelligent, successful, to EXACTLY that, our colour. They think we are illegitimate at every level simply because we are non white.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)White supremacists are literally on the march. They just helped elect the most unqualified presidential candidate in our country's history.
As white people, we don't get to claim that the country is post-racist. We have to face this problem.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)brush
(57,407 posts)into the Dem party. Their views will be 180 degrees different from ours.
Is that what you're advocating?
It sure sounds like it.
mia
(8,420 posts)Some may have voted for him for economic reasons, not racial.
brush
(57,407 posts)Which ones should we welcome in?
The ones too stupid to know that Trump is not bringing their job back or the ones who liked his racist views?
I don't want the stupid ones or the racist ones.
mia
(8,420 posts)The "stupid" ones, like Trump, came from a household where it was okay to brag about the fact that they don't care about reading, or being informed. That's a hard bunch to reach. not hopeless, though. Someone took them for a ride.
brush
(57,407 posts)Stop with the misinformation. You've got to know this, the repug party is the one defined by race.
Newsflash: IT'S THE WHITE PEOPLE'S PARTY, 95%, and many are racists. That is now really news to most of us.
mia
(8,420 posts)That's the beginning of the misinformation. Would you like to exclude anyone who is not multi-ethnic?
brush
(57,407 posts)Most people on this site know that the repug party is the one that defines itself by race.
It's 95% white, the party where all the dixiecrats (racists) retreated too after the 1964 Dem convention didn't work out in their favor.
What does this even mean?
"That's the beginning of the misinformation. Would you like to exclude anyone who is not multi-ethnic?"
kcr
(15,522 posts)I know you think if we'd only stop being the party for black people, we'd get more votes, "color wars". But it wouldn't work. Adopting strategies to look like the GOP never works. Why would they abandon the real GOP for the fake one? The answer is they wouldn't, because the GOP is good at what they do. They only find other ways to dupe them into sticking with the real deal. Stick with the base.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If this were about economics, black voters in their class and situation would have voted for him, too.
They didn't vote for him because of economics. They voted for him because he promised them to restore the social order they have come to rely upon - that no matter how low they are on the totem poll, they will always be superior to certain other people.
You can argue economics all you want. But there is NO way that any sentient human being could possibly vote for a man who is so blatantly racist, misogynistic, Islamaphobic, etc., who has been so enthusiastically endorsed by the KU KLUX KLAN and NAZIS, whom countless people of color BEGGED THEM NOT TO VOTE FOR BECAUSE HE WAS DANGEROUS TO US purely for economic reasons.
As I said, they are either racist or they are comfortable tolerating racists and have no problem putting a racist in the White House. I don't care what's in their hearts, so I don't care if they are personally racist or just don't give a shit enough about people like me not to put the KKK's candidate into the White House - the effect is the same and the blame is deserved.
mia
(8,420 posts)They want their business interests to thrive. That's the way it goes. I agree withwhat you're saying about the totem pole. We, on the lower levels, are multi-colored. Trump is a danger to mankind. It is happening here.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)working class voters are. But THEY didn't fall for Trump's economic argument.
They're not Republican. They're Democrats and they voted overwhelmingly for Hillary while the vast majority of white voters in their same situation voted for Trump. THEY saw through Trump's crap. Why didn't the white voters? Unless you think they're just stupid, you have to figure that something else was at play.
That something else was race - the only one of the things that wasn't like the others . . .
mia
(8,420 posts)They don't think about the welfare of the community. They watch Fox News.
Hard to say, because some are family members and friends.
radical noodle
(8,492 posts)
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)It is madness, IMHO, to ask PoC to go colourblind when the dominant white culture is clearly not only NOT colourblind, but indeed has vast, power-laden parts of it that are overtly and covertly hostile to colour.
MADem
(135,425 posts)not speaking up when they came for this group or that.
Survival, my left foot. We either have principles or we're shitheel Republicans. No thanks.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Good grief.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)RW'ers are spouting the same shit all over the internets.
If only black people would stop making everything about race!1!!
Move on along with that shit.
greatauntoftriplets
(176,794 posts)but because their hands were bigger than his. Or something.
greatauntoftriplets
(176,794 posts)
SpareribSP
(325 posts)Clinton did worse amongst African Americans, Muslims, Women, Millenials, and Hispanics than Obama. Fuck 'em all, they're all racist?
spooky3
(36,130 posts)Cookpolitical.com shows she now has nearly as many votes as Obama did in 2012, and votes are still being counted. This is despite a large increas in voter suppression this year (documented many places) and a much larger vote for third party candidates in 2016 vs 2012.
yardwork
(64,115 posts)The question now is what strategy does the Democratic Party use going forward. We are hearing calls for the Democrats to align with white supremacists. The OP disagrees. I do too.
By the way, I'm white.
whopis01
(3,721 posts)The OP directed their post to people that voted for Trump.
If you don't want to be divided from people that voted for Trump I would suggest you find somewhere else to post.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)who put racists into the White House than they do to their fellow Democrats of color.
jalan48
(14,352 posts)I don't think that a person voting for a Democrat necessarily means they want to be an active member of our Party. Would you say the people who voted for Obama and not Clinton are racist?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Nazis is either a bigot or is perfectly comfortable aligning themselves with them - which has the same effect. And I don't want them in my party.
jalan48
(14,352 posts)Again,would you call those who voted for Obama and not Clinton racists?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)anything in return. And what they want is for the Dems to stop embracing us. Otherwise, they would already be voting Democratic.
And yes, I think that people who voted for Obama and then voted for Trump are either racist or don't care that a racist is going to be president, virtually indistinguishable characteristics.
Racists vote for black people sometimes. Just like racists have black friends sometimes. And racists have sex with black people sometimes. Voting for Obama does NOT make someone not racist.
jalan48
(14,352 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)These people already know that Democrats are better for their economic interests than Republicans. They don't care because they have other interests that are more important to them - their fears, their desire to maintain the privilege and supposed superiority their race provides them. THAT's the only thing that Republicans are offering them that Democrats don't. So if Democrats want to attract them to our side, we have to compete with Republicans on that score. We have to convince them that we're not going to engage in what they - and too many Democrats - refer to as "identity politics" but what is really the politics of inclusion, which scares them to death.
And the only way to convince them of that is to make clear to them that THEIR concerns will be paramount - and those concerns are completely in conflict with the concerns of black and brown and female people in the Democratic party. That means our concerns will have to be subordinated. We will have to be quiet. Stop talking all that race stuff. Stop talking all that equality stuff. Stop "complaining." Focus only on class. Leave race out of it.
In other words, we will have to give up our seats so that the people who vote for bigots can have a nice cushy place to sit.
Skittles
(158,703 posts) Ghost OF Trotsky
(61 posts)Do they?
Did we make the argument well and clearly enough?
Maybe, in the spirit of this forum, we didn't. We ASSUMED that because, as passionate partisans and vastly more knowledgeable about politics than average, that our argument (that Hillary was better for the blue collar/non college educated/economically disadvantaged voter) was prima facie obvious, when it was only obvious to you and I.
Just because YOU and I know this, hell just because we see it as an absolutely fucking OBVIOUS fact, doesn't mean that we (the Democratic party and anyone who didn't want to see Trump elected) made the case.
Not saying that your initial and main point isn't valid, but a salesperson can have a better product, at a better price, and still lose the 'sale' to a lying bullshitter who gets their message across better. As you say, even racists will vote for the PoC (and presumably a female) *IF* they perceive it as being in their own best interests....
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If they don't get it by now, telling them again louder and more slowly won't make any difference. And if they are that stupid that they haven't figured it out yet, even if they eventually DO get it, they're not going to suddenly grow a new crop of intelligence. They are going to consistently have trouble grappling with every concept and issue the Democrats put forth and each time is going to require a yeoman's effort to help them understand what we're doing.
We don't have that kind of time, energy and resources to handhold people who are this thick. Again, I say, leave them to themselves and focus our efforts on cultivating our base and helping remove the barriers that keep them from voting. And if those folks on the other side, after watching us move forward together, decide they want to join us, that's fine - they're welcome to come on over and join up under our rules and our principles. But chasing around after them, trying to figure out what they want and wooing them over to our side like desperate heartstruck teenagers is not acceptable.
phylny
(8,575 posts)better. They have no idea Trump and Company want to take away SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. They have no idea the WIC and SNAP benefits they get are because Democrats fight cuts every day. They don't know that Obama inherited a crap economy from Bush and performed miracles with one hand tied behind his back.
They know they "always" vote for Republicans, that abortion is a sin, that homosexuality is a sin, and dammit, they want their guns.
I'm a white woman in a sea of red. It's disheartening.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts) 
PatsFan87
(368 posts)berating people who voted for a different candidate and telling them to f off. It's a bit odd calling people racist who voted for a man with the middle name Hussein not once but twice. Wouldn't it be more productive to listen and research? If people have concerns with the direction our party is going, should we not hear them out? Remember, at the end of the day we are all here because we generally agree on policy issues. That policy can never be implemented, and people's lives will not get better unless we don't welcome and reach out to those who have angered and disappointed us in the past.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)We need to cut our losses and write off people who don't share our values and don't want to vote for our candidates because they embrace a multicultural party.
Instead, we should put our resources into cultivating the vast numbers of people - larger than those lost people on the other side - who share our values and loyally support our party and desperately need what we have to offer.
I just don't get this concern about attracting people who can't stand us. Screw them - leave them over there with Trump and his ilk. There are more than enough people on THIS side to help us win in large numbers - if we just stop treating them like they don't matter and insulting them by ordering them to shut up so they don't offend Republican bigots and insisting that we're going to bring people who cannot stand them into our tent.
We're supposed to PROTECT our folks from those people, not force them to share their political resources with them.
PatsFan87
(368 posts)to help us win in large numbers or else we'd have won the election. If we had enough enthusiastic people, we wouldn't have been hemorrhaging house seats since 2010. I think a lot of people are making the mistake of painting Trump voters with a broad brush. Are there racist, sexist, violent scum who support Trump? Obviously yes. Are there struggling, hurting, desperate, perhaps misguided people who voted for him as well? Yes. Shouldn't it be our job to guide them back to us? As we saw with Obama, little can be accomplished without filibuster proof majorities in Congress. We don't even have a majority in the house or senate right now. We've lost governorships and state seats as well. And now Democrats want to push more people away? It seems illogical to me. We need to be opening the door not closing it.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)out to vote.
Among other things, we must fight harder against the voter suppression that has swept the country and kept millions of black votes from being counted.
It should first be our job to get our own base out to vote. If we do that, we'll have more than enough votes to win without selling our souls and selling out the very people who need us most.
i say let's first do that before jumping over into the Republican swamp and trying to lure their people back over to our side - because the only way to get them over here is to convince them that we will replicate the reasons they are voting Repubilcan - which means kicking people to the curb.
PatsFan87
(368 posts)who aren't enthusiastic enough to bother to vote vs. people who are politically active and involved, who can be swayed to our side with simple conversation and actually addressing their concerns? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Of course, I agree with you on fighting voter suppression. I will say however, as someone from Maine, one of the whitest states in the nation, addressing voter suppression in the black community isn't going to change much here. We tend to be a reliably Democratic state in presidential elections. This year however, Hillary barely won- the margin was less than 3%. A scary number of towns in the southern, liberal part of the state voted for Trump and the more rural northern district voted for Trump as well. Do we just say "screw these people?" and let the Republican party get their message out to Mainers? Or do we attempt to see where we went wrong?
I don't think it's an either or situation. We don't have to sell one group down the river to appease another. From what I was hearing up here in Maine from some people who were voting for Trump- they were not talking about Muslims, illegal immigrants, etc. They were talking about Obamacare costs rising, they were talking about once bustling areas becoming ghost towns riddled with poverty and little opportunity. A lot of people voted out of emotion, fear, and desperation.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)views out to vote than to try to convince people who are aligned with a party and politicians whose interests are diametrically opposed to ours. Yes.
Black voters supported Hillary 90%+. THOSE are the people we should be working to get to the polls. If they get to the polls, they vote Democratic and we win. Period.
Instead, we went chasing around after white working class people who already made clear they were in Trump's camp and white women whom we assumed would vote for Hillary but who instead decided to line up with white men to support a misogynist. These are not stupid people. They know exactly what Trump stood for. They know exactly what the Democrats stand for. We talked to them until we blue in the face. We told them over and over and over what the ramifications would be with a Trump presidency. And you know what? THEY DIDN'T CARE AND THEY VOTED FOR HIM ANYWAY. You think that if we just talk to them differently the next time around, they'll suddenly change their minds? What are we going to tell them that we haven't told them before? Other than - "ok, ok - we'll be more like the people you're supporting - and since the main difference between the people you're supporting and aligning yourselves with is that we care about people of color and aren't afraid to say it, we'll roll that back so that YOU feel happier and more comfortable with us."
That's the only way to get those people to vote Democratic. Let's convince them we're not all racial identity politics - i.e., we won't talk about race, we won't encourage black and brown people to be an integral part of our party, we won't call out racism when we see it because, after all, we don't want to OFFEND anyone.
I am appalled at the number of supposed Democrats on this thread who are twisting themselves into knots coddling and defending racists as if they are just confused children who need to be shown the light. Meanwhile, you all completely ignore people of color's concerns, tell us that WE don't understand racism or the racial dynamic that we have experienced firsthand for decades in America in general and politics and the most recent election in particular and that we should just be quiet so as not to OFFEND the very people who offend us constantly and who use their political power to elect people who have made it clear they want to subjugate and marginalize us. Racism to many of you is clearly no big deal. But those of us who experience it and call it what it is are the problem.
True colors, indeed.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...about black people who insist on voting Republican?
There were more black people who voted for Trump than for any other Republican in history.
TYY
bravenak
(34,648 posts)TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Surreal. I think the whole world has gone mad.
It's like we're living in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
TYY
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)"There were more black people who voted for Trump than for any other Republican in history"= Flat out false.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...received a higher percentage of the black vote? Nixon?
TYY
JustinL
(722 posts)Trump - 8%
Romney - 6
McCain - 4
Bush 2004 - 11
Bush 2000 - 8
Dole - 12
Bush 1992 - 11
Bush 1988 - 10
Reagan 1984 - 9
Reagan 1980 - 12
Ford - 15
Nixon 1972 - 13
Nixon 1968 - 15
Goldwater - 6
Nixon 1960 - 32
Eisenhower 1956 - 39
Eisenhower 1952 - 34
Dewey 1948 - 23
Dewey 1944 - 32
Willkie - 32
Landon - 28
Source for 2016: CNN exit poll
Source for 2012 and prior: blackdemographics.com/culture/black-politics
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I was going to post the numbers but I see that Justin already did.
You really should check your facts before making such ignorant statements.
Red Oak
(699 posts)In such a tight race it sure looks like it did.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/139880/Election-Polls-Presidential-Vote-Groups.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Voter_demographicsIf
% of black vote for the Republican candidate:
2000 Bush 3%
2004 Bush 7%
2008 McCain 1%
2012 Romney 5%
2016 Trump 8%
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)First of all, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote - so if blacks were responsible for tipping the scales, we tipped them in Hillary's favor.
Second, in the most of the states that Trump won that led to his presumed Electoral College victory, the margin was wide enough that the black vote did not make the difference.
Moreover, in most of the states that Trump won with a thinner margin, the suppression of the black vote had a much more significant impact on his victory than the small number of black Trump voters did.
Nice try to blame Trump's victory on black people. But the white people who voted for him bought him and those white people own him. Period. And I don't care one whit if my saying so offends them. In voting for that man who stands for everything I despise and that this nation is supposed to stand for, they have offended me. The question is why are YOU not offended? What do these people need to do to finally get people like you to stop making excuses for them - burn a cross on YOUR lawn?
Of all the unmitigated bullshit...
If that's the case, then I suppose that y'all need to kiss more black ass for black votes to win the presidency the next time...but that's not the strategy, I see...
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If black voters made the difference, why are folks chasing around after the white bigot vote?
Unless . . .
Red Oak
(699 posts)Why did more blacks vote for Trump than Bush?
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Some may be, others are certainly not. One thing Im convinced more and more of is that people are too quick to label others as "racist", "bigot", or "nazi" these days.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)Some people are just calling ALL white voters racist, or all rural white voters, etc.
I went to early vote the second I could and voted for ALL democrats in a red county of a battleground state. All this shit I'm seeing of this nature has really left me completely and utterly demoralized. According to some I'm just a rural white racists and it's all my fault Trump was elected. No matter that I didn't vote for him. No matter that I know some people who did who are NOT racist in any way and if simply reached out to probably would vote the other way and they are being called racists too. All my life I have stood up against racism, bigotry and unfairness. In saying, NO, it's not ok to call all white Trump voters racists I am hearing that my vote is not needed and I'm not welcome. So fuck it...why do I even bother voting for Democrats? They don't need or welcome me by the looks of it.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I'm saying the Democrats should send a message that if you are a bigot, if you don't want multiculturalism, if you think inclusiveness is "identity politics" and tolerance is "political correctness," we don't want you in our party because those are the most fundamental of our values. We are not going to change for you, we are not going to water it down for you, we are not going to turn our backs on our base for you.
If that's what you want, you are welcome to stay right where you are since the Republican party is much better suited to your needs and fears.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Have you spend even a fraction of the effort defending or even standing with the people in your very own party who are offended, disgusted and absolutely terrified at the thought that our party would go out of its way to entice people who - regardless what is in their heart of what we call them - clearly do not have our interests in mind and have proven they are willing to virtually stab knives in our backs?
Why all this handwringing and defense of Trump voters?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I'm sure you think they are true, but they're just not.
I can't speak for the other person but I have called out every single person who has make hateful comments about the protests or said anything unfair or inaccurate against all the people who are very update by Trump being elected. I was so upset by the results I cried and vomited when I realized Trump won. I got into arguments with extended family members who seemed to support Trump. I have family members who are black, hispanic, LGBT and disabled. I am NO fan of Trump. I'm only defending his voters because that is the right thing to do and sometimes the right thing is not easy to do.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)This includres
Men
Women
Blacks
Whites
Democrats
Republicans
I wouldnt label a single one "racist". Though id call some misiguidec, and id argue that HRC is a better choice.
As a white person, Labeling black people who voted for trump as racist would, IMO be highly offensive, something id never do.
Skittles
(158,703 posts)THAT IS AN ENDORSEMENT - no way in fucking hell could I vote for ANYONE who said the things he said
WHAT does that say about the people you know???
fucking SAD
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But they endorsed a racist. They ignored the desperate pleas of people of color and handed the White House to a bigot who made no secret of the fact that he's a bigot.
As I said, they may not personally be racist - i.e., they don't personally believe that blacks are inferior - but they had no trouble putting someone in power who not only believes that but promised to use his power to enforce that view. That is not personal racism, but it is the very essence of institutional racism, which depends upon people like your friends to perpetuate it even when they're walking around claiming they aren't racist themselves.
I don't give a damn about what's in their hearts. I care about what they DO. And they voted the exact same way as the Ku Klux Klan. It doesn't matter whether they did it while feeling their hearts are pure as the driven snow. They engaged in a racist act that will have ramifications for countless people of color across this country for years to come. THAT offends me. THAT disgusts me. THEY disgust and offend me. And the attempts to sugarcoat and defend their behavior among certain Democrats is also disgusting and offensive.
And being lectured by white people about how I must not only understand and forgive their white friends who have dug their heels into the necks of black and brown people in this country - whatever reason they claim they did it - and if I don't then *I* am the problem is absolutely nauseating, but oh so revealing.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)JHFC. If this is your view of white people, and what they do, or want to do, then we cannot have a rational conversation.
I will simply say that you are terribly misguided and wrong. The vast vast vast majority of white people do not want to hurt you because youre black.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)whether they "wanted" to hurt us. They knew that would be the outcome and they didn't care. We told them. We begged them. But they did it anyway. They can't now claim that their intentions were pure.
You may think I'm misguided and wrong. But your inability to see my - and many others'- point of view on this is a major part of the problem. I don't need any lectures about how we need to reach out to people who vote against our interests. I don't want them in my party and I've EARNED the right to expect my party not to go out and drag these people in my face and expect me to like it. If you won't or can't listen to people who are BEGGING you to show some loyalty to those of us who have fallen on our swords for this party year after year decade after decade, then you are a significant part of the problem that I am describing.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)I do. I want them and any others who are for policies which benefit working people of all colors, and a egalitarian system of justice which is fair to all people.
I hope your side loses, because if your side wins the Democratic party will cease to be a major political power, and leave a vaccuum that republucans will gladly fill. This has already started to happen, and if it continues will allow what I dread most. One party rightwing rule, and all that goes with it: endless war, social darwawanism, racism, stacking of the supreme court for generations, millitary/prison industrial complex on steroids,l.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)What are you going to givee them to attract them? You've already offered up all of the economic support and populism possible on a silver platter and they said No Thank You. All that's left is to start to push us aside, which is the only thing that will make them come to our side.
And once they're in our party and their interests conflict with mine - which they will because they do - what will happen. Which direction do you go? Do you side with them, which will drive US out and turn the party we helped to build into something undistinguishable from the party that consistently trashed us.
No thank you.
Since you're so enamoured of them, maybe you should go to THEM - join THEIR party and help to reform it from the inside. But we don't need or want bigots and those who support bigots on our side.
Skittles
(158,703 posts)but we cannot all you a racist or a bigot? PLEASE
yardwork
(64,115 posts)And when I see racism and other forms of bigotry I absolutely call it out. I'm no good German.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Either you liked voting for him because of his racism, or you found his racism acceptable and were willing to vote for him even though he's racist.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)during his campaign. There is also no doubt that Hillary Clinton made racist statements and dogwhissles during her various campaigns., yet her voters are not subjected to the same criticism, are they?
I do not think however that either HRC or trump run campaigns that are "based on racism". Both are more opportunist than racist and are motivated by getting votes, not racism.
Voters must look at the overall picture and pick option A or B, and take (what they see as) the good with the bad. I stand by my statement that working class voters can have voted for trump without being a racist.
Disclaimer: Dont think for one goddam second that im supporting or defending trump. Im defending working class voters against being slandered as "racist" or "nazi" (word thrown around way too easily nowadays) based on how they voted.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)And Trump's main messages were racist. That was the cornerstone of his campaign. A wall at the border. Registering Muslims.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)These campaign planks are more xenophobic than racist. An example of racism would be the despicable thing with the Mexican judge.
Again, I'm not here to defend any of this, all of which I disagree with, I am here to defend the voters, who weighed all aspects of both campaigns and made a choice. A choice which was not, i believe driven by race.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Yes, the wall was about a race. And "race" is not a biological thing. It's a societal thing. We can racialize anything, including a religion.
I think you're refusing to see something that is plainly evident.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Who decides? I think we racialize too much, and too many people are labeled "racist".
Its the new way to shame people and shut people up who you disagree with, and doing so with a false sense of moral superiority to boot.
Prominant "anti racists" like Tim Wise (who I *despise* and I think is just as bad as many racists) have almost God and cult-like status.
But I dont expect to win any arguments here. This place has 50 or 60 well versed, highly organized members who control things pretty much, but i believe that in more diverse and tolerant Democratic circles, including my real life circle, that most people see things the way I do. In fact, my thinking used to be much more inline with the current state of this board, believe it or not 
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I think racism is a huge problem in this country and we have to identify it and name it in order to solve the problem.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)"racism is a huge problem in this country and we have to identify it and name it"
Yes, thats true. But by weaponizing the term (often done by white "anti racists" like Tim Wise) it is being overused, and thereby dilluted and cheapened.
Ive seen too many good people tarred with this term and I think that does great harm, and can turn people off to the message, and push them away, even seed racist tendencies in people where there were none.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
dflprincess
(28,459 posts)but it is odd that Trump's racism, misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia and endorsement by the Klan and American Nazi Pary wasn't a deal breaker for them.
world wide wally
(21,827 posts)Which one would that be?
Now tell me all about how the blacksmiths and elevators went out of business.
By the way, when is Trump going to have his line of clothing made in the USA and bring back all those jobs?
ismnotwasm
(42,443 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,761 posts)I was going with the polls, felt for sure that SOS Clinton will be your next President. Took time off from work to see the results, half way through, I could not believe my eyes. Then she was gaining momentum and when I saw Trump was elected, I cried.
I am consoling myself that he will last 4 fours and I hope the Democratic Party can nominate someone to win in 2020. I do not know what else to say on here to console felow DUers on here, but let me tell you, I feel your pain. It feels like 2004 all over again, this time it is worst!
Red Oak
(699 posts)Why Trump did better with Blacks and Latinos than Romney in 2012?
Why did 53% of white women vote for Trump over Hillary Clinton?
Why did we lose PA, MI and WI, states that went solidly for President Obama, twice?
NanceGreggs
(27,835 posts)A lot of people heard Trump say he'd bring their jobs back from overseas, and they believed him.
A lot of people heard Trump say he'd rid the country of those pesky "illegals", and they figured that once they were gone, they'd have a great shot at getting one of those high-paying jobs the illegals have allegedly been stealing from Americans for years.
A lot of people heard Trump say that he'd keep Muslims from entering the country, and they think that means the country will now be safe from terrorist attacks.
A lot of people heard Trump say that blacks are lazy, Mexicans are rapists, etc., and they agreed with him.
A lot of people heard Trump say a LOT of things - and they swallowed it all whole, without ever thinking beyond what they heard, without ever looking at how his own history is contrary to everything he said, without ever asking exactly HOW he planned to actually DO anything he promised or proposed.
A lot of people heard the word "change", and assumed it would be change for the better, without ever considering it might be change for the worse.
A lot of people are just stupid, ill-informed idiots who believe anything they hear - as long as it "sounds" good, they aren't interested in whether it IS good, or plausible, truthful, or based on fact.
Every day, we hear stories about people being bilked out of money because they trusted the Saudi prince who sent them an email about his late uncle's fortune deposited in a US account that they could share in, people who phoned them and talked them into sending their passwords to their online banking/credit card info in order to "fix" their computers, people who donate money for the poor to "Christian pastors" who live in multi-million dollar homes, people who "invest" in ponzi schemes that promise to turn their meager savings into millions of dollars within a few months.
If you wonder where Trump voters came from, that's your answer.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Every Republican other than Goldwater did better with blacks than Romney and McCain did because they ran against Barack Obama, the first black president. So insisting that because Trump's number among blacks was slightly higher than Romney's somehow absolves his white voters of any questions about their motivations doesn't hold water.
Why do YOU think 53% of white women decided to vote for Trump when only 4% of black women did?
Apparently, you haven't been paying attention to the rampant voter suppression that kept the votes of millions of black people from being counted in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin and elsewhere. It made the difference in many of these races. But it didn't have the same impact on white voters, so it's not a big deal, nothing to see there, eh?
Hamlette
(15,528 posts)If you personally know any Trump voters you know they are not the poor misguided downtrodden. They are middle class, in some cases educated bigots. I know four, nieces. Known up since they were born. They are racist. Not poor, not misguided.
Listen, if I can't get to those four, no one in the world can.
My Aunt told me once, and I was so young I was horrified by it, that 10% of the world's population keep the rest in line. By being educated and civilized. We lost hold this round. We need to work harder but not by trying to convince them we are right, by convincing them they can't do it without us.
NanceGreggs
(27,835 posts)
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)It was only a few years ago that wide majorities of blacks opposed gay marriage. In California, for instance, blacks played a key role in passing Proposition 8 that declared marriage a union between a man and a woman. I think instead most progressives stuck by black voters believing they would come around on the issue. The white working class have too much in common with all working class and all struggling people to be rejected by anyone who calls themselves liberal, progressive, or Democratic. Screw white racists, yes, but the working class? No!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html
JCanete
(5,272 posts)at large, have not held the mechanisms of power that have also fostered that bigotry. But we are all human, and playing on people's irrational fears just plain works, no matter what color you are.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Instead of making the Democratic Party more comfortable for bigots who pretend to wear a "progressive" label (like the two terms are somehow synonymous) I say we should work on regaining the franchise for the up to seven MILLION Americans who had their voting rights abridged by GOP shenanigans at the state and local level.
We can easily grow our party with those individuals and by motivating the base (who I think, near term, will be well motivated after this soft coup by the Orange Anus).
But I don't want to "accommodate" racists. I don't want to put up with sexists. I don't want to "understand the concerns" of xenophobes. I don't want to tolerate them in any way, shape or form. Fuck them and their hate-filled rhetoric and attitudes.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)How am I supposed to frame "economic anxiety" and people voting for Cheeto Mussolini and all the shit he stands for?
When Democrats make excuses and talk about appealing to some of these folks I have to wonder if they really paid attention this year:
These are people who were fine, for the most part, with Cheeto Mussolini's dogwhistles which involved a subtle suggestion to assassinate our candidate, he also viciously lied about her (politicians lie about each other but OrangeJackass took it to another level),
and then his pretend-apology for birtherism and the racist rhetoric he vomited on all of us whole year..
.. yet Democrats wanna drink bush tea for TrumpFever.
Fuck.No.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)us in the back - but label any effort to reach out to minority voters who are on our side and share our values and support our candidates as "playing identity politics.""
Apparently they've bought into the notion that white people = people. Black and brown people = black and brown people.
AirmensMom
(14,815 posts)I agree with you. I am disgusted that so many of my neighbors voted for the orange turd. And I am absolutely appalled that something like 53% of white women voted for him. I am truly ashamed to be white right now, ashamed to be a white woman, ashamed to be an American. I would say we're better than this, but we have demonstrated otherwise.
I tried talking with neighbors, friends, and family before the election. I tried talking with my 39-year-old daughter who could never in her life bother to even register to vote. There is no kumbaya moment with these people. I will say it right along with you: They are at the very least racist. Around here, they are also misogynistic and xenophobic. There is no changing them.
I see voter suppression as a huge problem that needs to be addressed. Voter ID laws are active in my state and there aren't enough people who care to challenge them. Too few polling places, too few machines, etc... Did everyone see how long the lines were? Voting should be easy! It shouldn't require taking an entire day off and standing all day.And every eligible citizen who wants to vote should be able to vote. This is paramount.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)it affected them.
Now they're seeing that it does indeed affect them. When black voters can't vote, we can't help elect progressives. When black voters can't vote, we can't help stop anti-LGBT, misogynist representatives, governors, senators from taking power.
When black voters can't vote, we can't overcome bigoted white voters who put a racist into the White House.
White Democrats need to get involved - deeply involved - in the anti suppression efforts, if for no other reason, their own self-preservation.
AirmensMom
(14,815 posts)NRQ891
(217 posts)give some thought to where that thinking could lead - Reagan very cynically played on that kind of thinking, essentially saying 'stop feeling guilty, and be proud again'
Think how much things have changed since Bill Clinton ran in 1992 - entities that are now large institutions, hadn't ever been heard of - Yahoo (arguably, has come and gone), Google, Facebook - and even the internet itself
Compare this to the 'old guard' of American companies:
Ford - created 1903
General Electric - 1892
But both of these companies are 49 and 38 years (respectively) newer than the creation of the last political party, the GOP.
Trump didn't just defy the expectations of the Democratic party, he defied the GOP as well, breaking every rule known to politics to do it, at a fraction of the budget. Howard Dean was the first social media candidate, President Obama perfected it. Trump created news cycles with Tweets. Sanders went a very long way with mostly small donors. Jeb Bush had perhaps the largest war chest, yet went nowhere and out with record dispatch. So much so that many have already forgotten him
This election wasn't left vs right, it was populist vs establishment. I remember being bored in 'flyover' territory years ago, nothing but fundamentalist Christian radio for the drive, and tired of my own CDs. But it was interesting, a guy talking about how evangelicals were being 'played' by the GOP, strung along for social issues, but sold out on economic ones, the issues they raise their families on, and pointing out that the biggest 'family value' is feeding it. They're not all as dumb as you think. And they could be shaken out of the GOP, not into this party perhaps, but something else. (a lot of them have already become independent, George Will, for instance)
With the advance of technology, the 'proof of concept' of Trump's completely unconventional campaign style, I would not be shocked to see the rise of a 3rd populist party, somewhat libertarian on social issues but populist on economic ones. I think it could pull 1/4 of Democrats, 1/4 of Republicans, and 1/4 of Independents, giving it parity with other parties almost overnight. Please understand I'm not advocating such a thing, I'm stating that such a possibility is out there and must be considered, when assessing next elections. They say generals always fight the last war, but true preparation means some vision of a possible landscape. Ross Perot tried this in 1992, but it was 15 minutes before the internet, and still in the 'old rules' era. I don't see the 'Reform party' coming back, as it went FUBAR, but something fresh could start up
I think the mentality of 'we're going to paint a certain demographic with a broad brush and punish them in the next election' could result in being stranded on 'Gilligan's Island', with no friendly script writers to make sure we're not starving
mcar
(43,454 posts)I can barely look my neighbors in the face knowing what they have done to this country.
Many voted Drumpf because "drain the swamp!!11" Others because of racism and misogyny. For others it was "life," they would vote for anyone who said they are pro-life. My red FL county was big in the "keep your government hands off my Medicare" ACA wars so ignorance is there too.
One neighbor said he didn't care about the hateful crap said, he just wanted to blow up the system. I'm taking some pleasure in asking how that whole swamp draining thing is going for him.
Bottom line is that they enabled hate.
AirmensMom
(14,815 posts)In the midst of all this horror, it is comforting to know that you get it.
They'll blow up the system alight, and the country with it. I'm in TN, so I get the frustration over the ignorance.
The racism has been palpable since Obama was elected and blatant since the primaries. Confederate flags flying all over the place, hypocritical church signs about God blessing America (ya know, because we elected a white guy this time...), monkey statues in yards.
mcar
(43,454 posts)And all the I want my country back nonsense.
spooky3
(36,130 posts)Trump voters are largely stupid and uninformed, and/or racist/misogynist/biased in other ways.
I have no problem with Dems' doing a better job of communicating a clearer message as to what they have done for working class voters. But for many of them, only bald faced lies about things no Dem President would be able to get through a Republican Congress might have reached them.
LexVegas
(6,557 posts)blue cat
(2,438 posts)My republican family and friends would never ever vote for a democratic presidential candidate no matter what. Trump is proof of that. There is nothing that will ever change their mind. Keep bigotry out of our party.
many a good man
(5,998 posts)Maybe a chunk of white voters felt more strongly about rejecting globalism and establishment party politics than they felt about rejecting racism and misogyny. They are "soft" bigots who will vote for the anti-racist, multi-cultural party if they are given a compelling reason.
The trade deals over the past 25 years have benefited capital at the expense of labor. The financial sector has overwhelmed the rest of the economy and the beneficiaries have flooded the system with money to buy candidates to serve their interests. Establishment Democrats appear to be on their side more than they are on the side of the workers.
There is a rising tide around the world rejecting the establishment parties because they have not been able to ameliorate the negative impact of globalism on the standard of living for low skilled workers. If liberals do not come up with a viable response these people will drift even further toward racial populism. This response does not have to include backtracking on important social justice issues.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)if you are on the receiving end of the damage that racism does, it doesn't really matter what is in someone's heart. I don't care if Trump voters personally feel that I am inferior to them. If they decided to line up with those who do feel that way to vote for someone who has made it clear that he feels that way and will use his power to impose and enforce policies that will do great harm to minorities, it doesn't matter whether they personally agree with those views. They are making it possible for them to be perpetrated and the result is the same.
So, claiming that they are not personally racist, that they voted for a racist for reasons other than race, falls flat to me. They knew and know good and well what the results of a Trump victory will mean to people like me and they voted for him anyway. THEY are responsible for the damage that is going to be done and all of the "yes, but I'm not a racist because I have black friends and I voted for Obama"s in the world does not absolve them of responsibility for this.
And for what it's worth, I'm also sick and tired of the "rejection of establishment" argument. These people don't oppose the "establishment" at all. They're all about the establishment - or else they wouldn't have voted for Donald Trump, one of the most "establishment" candidates the most "establishment" GOP party has ever run. What they DO object to is when too many women and minorities find their way into the "establishment." Then suddenly they become "anti-establishment" and want to blow it up. Interestingly, that's the argument they use AGAINST minorities and women - they don't have enough "experience." And the only experience that ever counts requires that they become part of the establishment. But when they do, they're attacked for being too "establishment.""
Don't believe me? Remember when the big knock against Hillary Clinton was that she didn't have enough "experience?" She hadn't been a Senator long enough, had not been a governor, had ÖNLY been First Lady and a lawyer and an activist. Not good enough Hillary. So she dug in, forced her way into the "establishment"- she became senator, major presidential candidate and Secretary of State. And when she did, those same people then attacked her for being part of the establishment.
On the other hand, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders - two white men who were so deeply entrenched in the establishment that no one seemed to even notice any more because, after all, they are white men - were able to present themselves as änti-establishment.""
It's a setup that women and minorities face all the time. "You can't come in the room because you haven't been in the room. Sorry."
"Wow, you got in the room. Too bad for you. We need people who aren't in the room. Sorry."
AirmensMom
(14,815 posts)You are exactly right.
rogue emissary
(3,214 posts)It's a setup that women and minorities face all the time. "You can't come in the room because you haven't been in the room. Sorry."
"Wow, you got in the room. Too bad for you. We need people who aren't in the room. Sorry."
Exactly!
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)Maybe we should tell some people who voted for Clinton to get the hell out too? Is that a good plan?
Case in point... the exit polls:
http://edition.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls
View of U.S. wall along the entire Mexican border
Support (41%): Clinton 10% Trump 85%
If those Clinton voters go elsewhere, that's a reduction of about 4% of her vote.
I'm very thankful that most African Americans vote for the Democrats! I believe that Democrats are in MY best interest (and for the country as a whole), so I appreciate it!
I don't think it hurts to analyze the situation to figure out how Democrats might gain votes, even from people who voted for Trump. Maybe some of them only cared about their guns and they're brainwashed that Democrats want to take them all away?
And I understand the argument that people with "single issues" like that surely ignored Trump's obvious racism when they made their decision. Like many people on this planet, they were selfish and disregarded the bigger concerns of others. That's nothing new.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Democrats adopt a racist or anti-abortion platform.
MOST white people voted for Hillary Clinton if they didn't label themselves as "born again" or "evangelicals" in the national exit polls. The married ones voted for Trump even more. What does that mean? Is there something about being "born again" and married that makes people more racist? I doubt it. I think most of them simply have a greater sense of personal security and they believe that Democrats will tax them to benefit others, not themselves. There are indeed people who are convinced, even among the working class, that liberal policies will never do them any good.
Bottom line... the Democratic party might need to look at the numbers and try to figure out if there's some inroads to be made anywhere while still maintaining policies that try to lift up our most vulnerable citizens.
One of the first things that I'd recommend is putting national-level gun regulations on the back burner because I think it's hurting us in rural areas. Cities and states should still be free to regulate guns as they see fit.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)They tolerated and endorsed racism in voting for Trump, no matter why they voted for him.
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)That's how many people behave about many things. If it doesn't affect them, they don't care.
It was even more that way during slavery. There was a pretty small percentage of white people who owned slaves, but there was a far larger number of whites who didn't care or they looked the other way. I'm sure that the psychopaths who started it used propaganda to justify their inhumanity -- e.g., "they're not really people" and the like.
We still have psychopaths and they still use propaganda to get the masses to accept/ignore what they do.
Red Oak
(699 posts)As a high school student, Sec. Clinton worked for Barry Goldwater's campaign. Here is what Dr. King Jr. said about Goldwater:
“While not himself a racist,” concluded Martin Luther King Jr., “Mr. Goldwater articulates a philosophy which gives aid and comfort to the racists.”
She later worked for Gerald Ford and then Nelson Rockefeller, both Republicans.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/hillary-worked-for-goldwater/
then as First Lady:
Hillary Clinton on Super Predators
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/8/1467336/-Hillary-Clinton-Gangs-of-kids-are-super-predators-with-no-conscience-no-empathy
Has Hillary Clinton done things to help the Black Community? Mass incarceration, expanding prisons, support for the death penalty
https://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-deserve-black-peoples-votes/
Now, I really do not think that these data points in isolation show Sec. Clinton is a racist. I want to show that she did change positions over the years. She made some mistakes and tried to correct them. She's human.
My point is, people change. We can and should talk to those people that left the Democratic party and voted for Trump. Some of them are racist at this time. But they also voted for President Obama twice. By working with them we can probably get some of them to change their views over the years. If they want a system, economic, social and justice, that works for ALL of us, then we want them. I think your point may be similar. We can work together.
DemonGoddess
(5,112 posts)
Afromania
(2,788 posts)What I want to know is this. Where are all of the "good" non racist, un-bigoted Trump voters right now. Where are they on these increasingly common attacks on people of Jewish, Muslim, LGBT, Black, Hispanic, etc backgrounds? Are any of these people stepping up to protect those in their neighborhoods that aren't white? Are they speaking up for those not their neighbors and the children of those that aren't their neighbors who are being assaulted elsewhere? Or are they milling about whining like who bitches about how we are calling them racist and bigoted?
If they are NOT racist, bigoted, whatever then STAND UP. Don't sit and wait for somebody else to fix it or say that it'll quiet down after a while. If they are indeed not evil assholes and were misguided by the lies that streamed out of Trumps cat anus of a mouth, then fine; but dammit I don't want to hear another complaint about them being talked down on as long as they refuse to acknowledge what their comrades in arms are CURRENTLY, ACTIVELY doing RIGHT OUT IN THE OPEN in the name of the guy they collectively voted for.
If they aren't racists then they are sniveling cowards. Let's not upset or offend all the sick and vicious sickos around them. The rest of us be damned so that they can keep on living in their own little personal safe space realities where everything is hunky dory... for them.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
MARTIN NIEMÖLLER
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)I didn't see much outrage in this country over hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed during Dumbya's idiotic invasion.
I was a "jerk" about it too because I didn't do anything about it. I don't really know how since I don't have much power/influence, and I've grown cynical about public protests changing anything over the years.
EDIT:
To be clear, I voted for Hillary and all-Democrats in the last election, so I'm not one of the Trump voters you were addressing.
I stood up for Obama and minorities at a local redneck bar (that I foolishly entered on a whim) a few years ago and ended up in an emergency room. I walked home and encountered African American men who acted like they enjoyed seeing my stitched-up white face and blood-covered clothes. At least they didn't assault me too, but the whole experience was extremely depressing (and costly).
Later edits: Sorry, my eyes suck.
Afromania
(2,788 posts)Anybody that saw an injured person and enjoyed seeing said person injured is a shitbag, plain and simple; doesn't matter why. As for the war, no the general public seems to not care because it's not happening to them. That's the way it always is. It's never real until it's happening to you.
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)I shared the story here a couple times in the past. Here's one of them:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8271172
I actually didn't stand up for Obama and minorities all that much because I could tell the guy who approached me in the bar was a tattoo-covered lunatic, but I suspect that I was still too much of a contrarian for that guy.
Dayton is pretty segregated, unfortunately, so some people aren't as trusting and nice toward others who look different. The hospital where I was transported was in a very AA-dominated area. Like I said, at least they didn't assault me too. Most of my anger was directed at the redneck bar, by far. I had some very evil thoughts about how to get revenge on that place for a few days, but I decided it wasn't worth it... and I didn't really know who did it anyway.
I don't think that forcing people of different skin colors to intermingle necessarily works, but I've noticed over the years that even my most racist white co-workers seemed to genuinely LIKE their African American co-workers. They might say something like, "I don't have a problem with guys like Lamar and Eddie, but..." They see crap in the media (protests or riots) and get worked up over it.
The cops who arrived on the scene outside the bar were useless. No real investigation at all.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)10-4!!!!!! where the hell are all the 'decent' trumpfuhrer voters raising their voice about the 2000 or so incidents since their potusfuhrer-in-waiting got elected.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Think about that. After all that rigamarole about the wall, calling them rapists, etc., Clinton still couldn't capitalize in Hispanic communities; the guy got freaking more of the Hispanic vote than Romney did.
After Trump's campaign was accused of being basically all about white nationalism, Clinton still couldn't capitalize in African-American communities; the guy got freaking more of the African-American vote than Romney did.
This is really a pointless argument because most DUers have already made it clear they're perfectly fine continuing to lose if that means they don't have to change anything, but if it was up to me, this is where I would start. Our strategy for the Hispanic vote clearly was about identity politics, assuming no Hispanic would vote for Trump because of his comments.
But 30% did, so there were clearly issues that they cared about more than offensive comments. Let's also not forget that there are alot of naturalized Hispanics who amazingly don't have dissimilar beliefs to Trump when it comes to Hispanics who have entered the country illegally. To assume that someone who "waited their turn," if you will, is going to automatically have a ton of sympathy to someone who "jumped the fence," was a fallacy on our part, IMHO.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Consider — if you believe the preceding arguments about the vast majority of his voters (enough of the general pop to win) prioritizing economic security and justice over social issues, it stands to reason that the best strategy to ensure/expand the size and loyalty of that group would be to ensure that Hillary never gets their ear. So, if I (Trump) want her to stay off the topic of economic security and justice, my strategy is:
1. First position social issues as the misguided (in that they’re not thinking about us and our survival) obsession of the out-of-touch elite who care about me not at all
2. Second, ensure then that she only talks about those very elitist social issues (thereby, creating the cognitive association of her as elite and not for them).
Much more at the link. Written by a TV producer who understands the con man reality TV skills Trump used.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)[URL=
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Tarheel_Dem
(31,443 posts)
Mountain Mule
(1,012 posts)I couldn't agree with you more. Even if the Dems could (which they can't) entice members of the ku klux klan to join up, I am not interested in attempting victory by using the tactics of hatred and bigotry which are currently being blatantly displayed everywhere you turn. I don't listen to the right or our current dictator elect. Instead, I watch their actions which speak volumes. This country is now in the worst crisis it has endured since the civil war. People, please. If you win the battle by emulating your enemy, you become the enemy yourself.
Kick and Kick again! This mule won't stop kicking until we live in a democracy again. This oligarchy comprised of a select few out for only their own gain and the ignorant many who slaver after their cartoon colored leader sickens me. I have a good friend who is German and who called me in tears when the election results came in. "It's starting again," she said. "We never learn the lessons of history." It deeply troubles me that there might be even the slightest chance that she may be correct. Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to run on down and help them build that wall in order to bring around a few more haters to the democrats' side.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)I am done supporting and defending unions they voted for Trump
Repeal Davis Bacon and pass a national right to work law.
Screw um! I will not defend any unions ever again.
Reagan gutted unions and this fascist pig is going to finish the job. Have at it.
lark
(24,122 posts)Yes, angry white males fueled and ruled this election, but my friend who is black stated the day after that it was her races fault, and she was truly pissed. A lot of the military is black and supported drumpf. Of course some may have wanted to vote but couldn't get to their precinct due to repugs closing so many voting locations in areas that are majority black, but doubt that was the margin of error.
Hillary would have won if more women didn't hate other women and didn't want to see one as the head of government
Hillary would have won in a fair world that respected laws and cared for it's people. Hillary would have won if F BI hadn't thrown the election to drumpf and suppressed real evidence that he colluded with Russia to hack the vote. The real question is why Obama isn't acting on this? What could be more important? Has his family been threatened, because I can't think of anything else sufficient for this.
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts)... still voted for the Democrat by a very strong majority.
I don't want to blame anyone based on skin color alone, but too many of my fellow whites voted for Trump. It was mostly the married evangelical white Christians who voted for that asshole (and gave him the majority white vote), but I'm disappointed in the others too.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)They could have rescued the country from the 60 percent of white people who voted for him.
Damn you, black people! This is ALL your fault!!!
JCanete
(5,272 posts)what a few on DU are peddling, but it is NOT what Sanders was saying, nor is it what most us our saying who believe we need to have a stronger GALVANIZING economic message that actually starts to expose and take apart the gears that churn out racists.
As to well meaning white people on these boards, who don't quite get the magnitudes of suffering and make the mistake of taking deep umbrage when people call out "white privilege" "white voters" or white people at large, I will certainly lend my voice to try to help put their hurt feelings in context.
I just don't want "listen to white pain" to be conflated with good economic policy that could benefit poor and middle class people across the spectrum.
world wide wally
(21,827 posts)and what is the major reason they were able to steal the election in one word:
Comey
hueymahl
(2,643 posts)Division by race is not the answer. We are better than that.
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)dembychoice
(30 posts)Just saw Tom Hartmann read this on his show and thought it fitting for how some people really are today.....SAD! http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/editorial/guest-commentary/21099-day-in-the-life-of-joe-middle-class-republican.html
Dark n Stormy Knight
(10,021 posts)So true, but the RW has done one thing that liberals/Dems have not done: built and generously funded a massive, multifaceted, highly sophisticated, unrelenting propaganda machine. Because of our failure to counter that effort, middle class Joe Republican is as clueless as that little story shows him to be.
We will always be fighting an uphill battle until our side realizes that the main advantage the Right has is that disinformation behemoth and builds a tool as effective.
dembychoice
(30 posts)Wanted to start a new thread with this but.....am new to DU!
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,035 posts) wildeyed
(11,243 posts)He says it loud and proud. That is why they picked him over the other GOP candidates who just use the same old tired dog whistles.
And I am sick and tired of talking about these people like they are children. They DECIDED. Trump is who they want. They know good and well who and what they voted for. They don't want our sympathy or help. They want to feel PROUD again, like in the old days. And PROUD to them means disrespect to women, POC, LGBTQ and other religions. They want to rub our faces in their shit and we are supposed to smile and ask if we can have more. Anyone who has been paying attention for the last few decades or just read a bit of history knows this is true. Fuck that. It is fundamentally incompatible with the values of the Democratic Party and the demographics of this great country.
They are not children. They do not want our help or understanding. They want to get paid to do jobs that don't exist any more and they want to be discriminate. They need to be held accountable for their decisions not appeased.
greatauntoftriplets
(176,794 posts)Thanks for this.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Martin Eden
(13,443 posts)The best policies for the 99% (remember THEM??) are color and ballot-box blind.
Seriously, how does a government policy differentiate between someone who voted for Hillary and someone who voted for Trump when they are the same color, the same age, live in the same neighborhood, and have similar skills and job history?
How does a candidate or a political party promote good policies for economic and social justice -- while somehow excluding those who voted for a vile racist demagogue in 2016?
By all means DO NOT pander to bigotry in any way shape or form. STAND AGAINST it.
Campaign for strong and inspiring Democratic leaders who will keep articulating the policies and the message that are necessary to build a better future for ALL of us.
No doubt there will be some vile racists who will vote against their own economic interests and that of their children. DO NOT pander to their prejudice, but keep hammering home what needs to be done to keep bending the long arc of our universe towards justice.
Let the ballots fall where they may.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)irrespective of their skin color. We are Democrats and that's how we roll.
if some of those workers don't support the party that's best for their interests, then fuck those bigoted, sexist asshats. You can lead a horse to water . . .
TuslaUltra
(75 posts)raging moderate
(4,499 posts)It was no accident that Trump kept repeating "ripping babies out of their mothers' wombs" in that last debate. I think there are some people who don't know very much about it who are just convinced they MUST stop all abortions.
Overall, I think this is a good OP. I am white, and talk about the racism of many whites is not divisive to me. We do have many many whites who hate all non-whites for daring to aspire to the same level of wealth and status as whites. You go right ahead and keep them out of our party. I don't want them here, either.
azureblue
(2,283 posts)misguided by Fox news, preachers, and right wing radio. They fell for it hook line and sinker. But let's face facts - they wouldn't if they had not grown complacent and incurious. They let themselves get dumb and easy to manipulate. They now live in their own bubble and they are, as a whole, brainwashed. They cannot be reasoned with or shown facts - they will simply not believe what you say, even when the truth is staring them in the face. The only people who will wake them up is themselves. They will have to face facts of who is ruining their lives on their own. We can't appeal to them because we have long been drawn as "the enemy" and not to be listened to, better reviled and hated. For now, let them be.
Meanwhile we should not waste our bringing the horse to water, we should pull together and carry on until we stop the Orwellian Trump fiasco.
samir.g
(836 posts)enterthetoad
(7 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 2, 2016, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)
Just listen to Kellyanne Conway's comments yesterday at Harvard - she said that Clinton lost because she didn't have an economic message for "white working class voters." But if this really were about economics, why limit it to white voters. She slipped up and admitted the truth. Trump had a message for white working class voters - and the fact that it was directed to WHITE voters tells you everything you need to know.
raging moderate
(4,499 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:19 PM - Edit history (1)
They think that the low-income people are just lazy. The Faux news bunch has sold them on the idea that all these low income Black people are just receiving welfare for not working. They never question why so many more non-white people wind up with low incomes, and they don't see how their white privilege automatically helps them at least a little. They believe that the white working class is the only real working class.
I read that most truly low-income people did not vote for Trump.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)With that voting group written off the Republicans are free to absorb more minority votes and will only have to draw in some marginal amount to win it over and over again.
Learn or die.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Besides the foolishness of that particular assumption, you seem to have completely failed to notice the second part of my point - that in addition to writing off the bigots who voted for Trump (or at least not jumping through hoops to attract them into our party), Democrats must work harder cultivate, motivate and protect the voting rights of the black and brown voters who have demonstrated an extraordinary loyalty to Democrats and only need to be treated right and they will far, far outnumber the Trumpian bigots on the other side.
I'm fascinated by how many people continue to insist that we go above and beyond to appeal to people who are either racist or so lack any morals or empathy that they're perfectly happy to put racists into the White House, yet say absolutely nothing about and seem to have absolutely no interest in lifting even a finger to generate more support among the loyal black and brown voters right here in our midst.