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realmirage

(2,117 posts)
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:40 PM Nov 2016

So is our message really that all Trump voters are racist and that's why we lost?

Is this our strategy? Because if it is I want to mark on my calendar the day the Democratic Party died. We used to care about people in the rust belt. We used to watch Roger and Me and feel for those people. Now all we want to do is eliminate the electoral college so we can forget them. The electoral college isn't going anywhere and in the meantime the people in the rust belt will see that we are trying to cut them out and they'll continue to vote against us. They don't care that republicans opposed the auto bailout, they care that their states are still hurting and Trump was the only one still speaking to them.

It is a reality of human nature that people vote for their economic survival first and social issues second. We can ignore that reality and the Republicans can swoop in and steal our economic message as Trump just did, and if so, let me know so I can at least know that we are finished as a party.

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So is our message really that all Trump voters are racist and that's why we lost? (Original Post) realmirage Nov 2016 OP
Our most pressing message is RUSSIA Madam45for2923 Nov 2016 #1
Yup, I have a feeling that between Russia and the FBI, a coup has taken place. shraby Nov 2016 #4
Yup, I have a feeling that between Russia and the FBI, a coup has taken place. LenaBaby61 Nov 2016 #10
I wish I didn't agree....but I do... pangaia Nov 2016 #63
Yup, count me in. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2016 #110
In theory, but Cosmocat Nov 2016 #66
Russia is the scapegoat? How pathetic. jfern Nov 2016 #156
? Russia hacked the DNC and Hill's emails, so says 17 intel and security agencies wordpix Nov 2016 #158
Hillary caused Hillary to lose, not Russia. jfern Nov 2016 #159
No blue cat Nov 2016 #2
Geesh & F*ck! Madam45for2923 Nov 2016 #5
I live in Alabama. yallerdawg Nov 2016 #69
I would say the two main things that lost the election was the two doc03 Nov 2016 #3
Yep hueymahl Nov 2016 #90
I agree they were big factors. OnionPatch Nov 2016 #145
Well they did vote for someone who spouted some divisive shit all year didn't they? JHan Nov 2016 #6
Hillary's message to them was globalism, which is what they hate realmirage Nov 2016 #11
Between her and Sanders and Trump she was the only one who intuitively knew the challenges ahead.. JHan Nov 2016 #18
"Retraining" for nonexistent jobs likely to be globalized or flooded into wage crashing/criteria TheKentuckian Nov 2016 #154
Hold on.. JHan Nov 2016 #155
No, the current message SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2016 #7
So basically what the republicans were planning to do realmirage Nov 2016 #12
Hello Republican super majority. Ace Rothstein Nov 2016 #15
lolz realmirage Nov 2016 #107
Which better change... TCJ70 Nov 2016 #64
Political Russian roulette, but you may be right. Yo_Mama Nov 2016 #149
I think it has to be a three-pronged approach SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2016 #150
No... SidDithers Nov 2016 #8
Agree 100% n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2016 #9
In reality, people care about their economic survival before realmirage Nov 2016 #14
Not all people. hamsterjill Nov 2016 #84
You must be well off to have such a luxury realmirage Nov 2016 #108
No, I am not well off. hamsterjill Nov 2016 #137
Those people didn't care enough about their economic survival to listen long enough to find out Squinch Nov 2016 #87
So tell me what the Democrats' plan was to help people in the rust belt? realmirage Nov 2016 #109
You can't look at Hillary's site either? Are your fingers broken? For people who are Squinch Nov 2016 #134
A 15.00 an hour minimum wage .... dawg Nov 2016 #138
Completely wrong. Most of it is not concious choice. Your comment is what's wrong with Democrats KittyWampus Nov 2016 #168
Racist AND misogynistic. SMC22307 Nov 2016 #13
Not That Simple PoorMonger Nov 2016 #16
They used to have thriving communities realmirage Nov 2016 #17
Couldn't agree more n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2016 #19
Trump wasn't listening to them. He was pandering to them. TwilightZone Nov 2016 #25
Of course he listened realmirage Nov 2016 #27
There are a multitude of reasons why he won. TwilightZone Nov 2016 #28
The rust belt flipped red realmirage Nov 2016 #30
And what jobs plan ... LenaBaby61 Nov 2016 #37
He buys his steel and other things from China because realmirage Nov 2016 #49
No.. no ... no....he can buy steel in the US and not for twice its price. He buys steel in uponit7771 Nov 2016 #116
It is a little difficult when we are held to an entirely different standard. AgadorSparticus Nov 2016 #81
Trump lied to them. When NAFTA and TPP are gone, their lives are not going to get any Squinch Nov 2016 #89
No ... They're not all racist... They do support a racist with their votes and that's bad enough uponit7771 Nov 2016 #20
They voted for economic survival realmirage Nov 2016 #23
Plenty are racist pieces of shit...don't kid yourself. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #33
Racists have always existed, but that's not why they flipped red realmirage Nov 2016 #36
With a 4.9% he rate and even lower in the lost HRC projected states? The jobless uponit7771 Nov 2016 #40
The jobless rate is misinterpreted realmirage Nov 2016 #51
This is false on its face ... Waco link inside... Its a rwtp.. I wish we wouldn't repeat it uponit7771 Nov 2016 #56
Have you been to Michigan lately? realmirage Nov 2016 #60
Michigan's UE rate is 5.4% and the same can be said about towns in CA uponit7771 Nov 2016 #65
"As if it's worse now." Exactly. This is nuts. Squinch Nov 2016 #92
take a look realmirage Nov 2016 #99
article doesn't address the question about jobs in those areas then and now... if they're ... uponit7771 Nov 2016 #112
So we are in the minority in realmirage Nov 2016 #113
We're in the minority in the house because of gerrymandering, that's a known knowm... we're uponit7771 Nov 2016 #114
exit polls? realmirage Nov 2016 #117
No but exit polls and 95% of the generational polling science being wrong something fucked uponit7771 Nov 2016 #120
Please tell... HDSam Nov 2016 #123
A rising LFPR, that's how I'm hedging the "jobs less recovery" MSM meme... Labor Force uponit7771 Nov 2016 #125
I've been to Michigan gollygee Nov 2016 #78
This is worth considering realmirage Nov 2016 #100
Thank you for this, this is my theory also... that the rural towns are doing better economically uponit7771 Nov 2016 #124
Ugh. This bullshit again. Squinch Nov 2016 #93
you mean this bullshit? realmirage Nov 2016 #101
No, the bullshit you talked about in the above post of your gish gallop. But this is bullshit too. Squinch Nov 2016 #133
Yes, people voted for donald fucking trump Cosmocat Nov 2016 #67
The Democratic Party's message just failed, maybe you should be asking why realmirage Nov 2016 #103
Obviously they didn't because they voted for the candidate who has no prospect of improving Squinch Nov 2016 #91
They voted for an economic delusion using racist language. Coventina Nov 2016 #102
Riiight... realmirage Nov 2016 #104
Donald Trump is a naked racist endorsed by the KKK. Coventina Nov 2016 #105
No, people vote their interests realmirage Nov 2016 #106
"bathrooms" being their interest then the DNC isn't going to reach them at all... they're ecomically uponit7771 Nov 2016 #127
Riiiiiight. Sunshine and lollipops being sold in the form of calling others rapists, murderers, Coventina Nov 2016 #129
I'd like to see this, if their lives are that much worse now than BEFORE Obama then you have a point uponit7771 Nov 2016 #118
What? They've been blue for a long time.. And you say just consider them lost forever? realmirage Nov 2016 #119
The flip counties have NOT been blue for a long time unless you're counting Obama as "long time" uponit7771 Nov 2016 #122
They Voted For RobinA Nov 2016 #163
Perhaps not. BlueStater Nov 2016 #21
Also melman Nov 2016 #22
That's the path to oblivion for the Party. realmirage Nov 2016 #24
I know melman Nov 2016 #29
Not all Trump voters are racists. RandySF Nov 2016 #26
I have to say that I disagree. If they are willing to give his racism a pass because of some other Squinch Nov 2016 #94
No, they're stupid too. MadamPresident Nov 2016 #31
No, they're stupid too. LenaBaby61 Nov 2016 #39
In my opinion it may not be wise to call union voters who deserted ... spin Nov 2016 #75
precisely realmirage Nov 2016 #111
I agree. OhioBlue Nov 2016 #121
As a union worker I can attest to the stupidity. MadamPresident Nov 2016 #136
Welcome to DU by the way. ... spin Nov 2016 #151
Couldn't Agree More RobinA Nov 2016 #164
Welcome, welcome, and fabulous post. Squinch Nov 2016 #95
I would say most Trump supporters are racist Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #32
I know people who definitely could be called racist. ... spin Nov 2016 #77
yes! Top DEMS in Ohio have campaigned against trade deals for years OhioBlue Nov 2016 #126
I grew up in Ohio but joined the Air Force back in the 1960s. ... spin Nov 2016 #130
It's a reason, but not important Bradical79 Nov 2016 #34
It is incredibly easy to get people to turn on each other. alarimer Nov 2016 #80
From what I've seen no duncang Nov 2016 #35
but we shouldnt treat getting duped by racists as indelible moral stain Bucky Nov 2016 #44
Trump told liquid diamond Nov 2016 #38
You mean we shouldn't try to address unemployment in the rust belt? realmirage Nov 2016 #41
People who think all Trump voters are racists are not thinking clearly Bucky Nov 2016 #43
It's a waste of time. liquid diamond Nov 2016 #45
So losing again is your strategy? realmirage Nov 2016 #48
That's what you got from that post? Sounds like a shit reading. Squinch Nov 2016 #96
No, that would be a dumb, hopeless message Bucky Nov 2016 #42
This is the message of most of the "elites" on this site. I think the Democratic party jack_krass Nov 2016 #46
I hate to admit it but the elitist label realmirage Nov 2016 #52
Is that your takeaway from this RIGGED election? Hekate Nov 2016 #47
You didn't read the whole op did you... realmirage Nov 2016 #53
binary thinking is stinking thinking, and you are letting LaydeeBug Nov 2016 #50
So your strategy realmirage Nov 2016 #55
again, the binary, either this or that, is YOUR fallacy, not mine. nt LaydeeBug Nov 2016 #58
Yep- every person positing this let's cater to the rust belt is ignoring a hell of a lot.... bettyellen Nov 2016 #76
I know, right? From bathrooms to bimbos...it never ends. nt LaydeeBug Nov 2016 #79
Again, that's what you got from that post? You keep putting words in people's mouths that are not Squinch Nov 2016 #97
Thank you. emulatorloo Nov 2016 #72
I hope not Lotusflower70 Nov 2016 #54
Well said. We have to learn from this. realmirage Nov 2016 #57
most of them are racist and all give racism a pass JI7 Nov 2016 #59
'Our' message seems to be all over the map, elleng Nov 2016 #61
Clinton lost because Clinton forgot ... earthside Nov 2016 #62
And yet.. JHan Nov 2016 #74
It's pretty elemental politics. earthside Nov 2016 #139
You can't convince me that her message didn't pierce through to people.. JHan Nov 2016 #140
She lost where it mattered. earthside Nov 2016 #143
I'll share this post again.. JHan Nov 2016 #144
Right to the nub of the matter. earthside Nov 2016 #147
We can also add.. JHan Nov 2016 #148
People are trying to work up a narrative around the narrowest of victories for Trump in the midwest. JHan Nov 2016 #141
I don't know about "ours" but mine? yeah-sexist and racist ismnotwasm Nov 2016 #68
Yes treestar Nov 2016 #70
Hyperbolic mischaracterization. emulatorloo Nov 2016 #71
Who is this "our" you speak of? Lil Missy Nov 2016 #73
You nailed it. It is a strawman argument. emulatorloo Nov 2016 #86
Putting words in the mouths of others that others never said seems to be a talent with this one. Squinch Nov 2016 #98
The electoral college does not take away their vote or diminish them. musicblind Nov 2016 #82
In my book anyone who votes for a racist, is a racist. 50 Shades Of Blue Nov 2016 #83
All Trump voters are either racist, misogynist or both. They deserve the KingCharlemagne Nov 2016 #85
Thank you for your post hueymahl Nov 2016 #88
The type of ignorance that causes a person Lint Head Nov 2016 #115
They are all willing to vote for a man who blatantly pushed racist and sexist pnwmom Nov 2016 #128
No, not all were... Mike Nelson Nov 2016 #131
I do feel for those in the rust belt. MyNameGoesHere Nov 2016 #132
Electing Chuck Shumer as our new party Leader is not a good sign quantumjunkie Nov 2016 #135
"Economic survival" is why they voted for Obama who saved their bacon. ucrdem Nov 2016 #142
Agree - no matter how people feel, this approach is self-defeating. Yo_Mama Nov 2016 #146
I'm glad that there are people out there that can still see past their emotions realmirage Nov 2016 #152
Don't Disagree RobinA Nov 2016 #165
"Social issues"? Lizz612 Nov 2016 #153
no - message is "election integrity" and "voter solutions" wordpix Nov 2016 #157
Except For The Fact RobinA Nov 2016 #160
At the bare minimum, they saw all the racist shit, and decided they could tolerate it. backscatter712 Nov 2016 #161
1000, "and decided they could tolerate it." uponit7771 Nov 2016 #162
Include the points raised in this article in any proposed solution BSdetect Nov 2016 #166
If that is what was learned by the 2016 election, the Democratic party has underestimated the scope PufPuf23 Nov 2016 #167

LenaBaby61

(6,991 posts)
10. Yup, I have a feeling that between Russia and the FBI, a coup has taken place.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:04 PM
Nov 2016

+1,000

The truly frightening thing is: What if this blue print for rigging elections is something they try again in 2018 and in 2020? Whose to stop them,? And do you think a DOJ/FBI with the likes of this diabolical den of thieves will do any serious investigations into complaints filed by Dems of voter disenfranchisement/suppression? They're all laughing and chuckling at the fact that they KNOW they got away with the help of their buddies the Russians with rigging THIS election. Again, whose to stop them from continuing this? Our own FBI was in on it THIS time around.

Cosmocat

(14,947 posts)
66. In theory, but
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 07:33 PM
Nov 2016

Election day proved the 60 million or so who voted for the pos and the millions who chose to not vote for potus could have cared less.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
158. ? Russia hacked the DNC and Hill's emails, so says 17 intel and security agencies
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 07:39 AM
Nov 2016

What's with the "scapegoat" meme?

blue cat

(2,438 posts)
2. No
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:42 PM
Nov 2016

But I'm sitting around some trump racist family right now at thanksgivings. Confederate flag and all.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
69. I live in Alabama.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 07:48 PM
Nov 2016

"Racists? Where?"

Apparently - every freakin' where!

Not the America they thought they lived in?

doc03

(36,623 posts)
3. I would say the two main things that lost the election was the two
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:42 PM
Nov 2016

Republican ideas Democrats picked up and ran with. NAFTA and Romneycare

OnionPatch

(6,212 posts)
145. I agree they were big factors.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:33 AM
Nov 2016

Actually I think it was a perfect storm of things, those two included and near the top of the list. IMO, they were a big reason the Dems lost some of their traditional voters from the left and from independents.

Add to that the irrational, extreme hatred the right has for Hillary that they've been fostering for what, 25 years or more. Sprinkle in minority voter suppression, FBI tricks, possible occurances of election fraud, an election system that's biased in favor of the GOP, and we have our outcome.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
6. Well they did vote for someone who spouted some divisive shit all year didn't they?
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:52 PM
Nov 2016

And it is probably a spectrum of views - to very racist to not so racist to anarchists to voting for someone versus voting AGAINST someone. -

And lying to voters - like Trump did - is not caring about them. Hillary's message and plans never pierced through Trump's noise - there's a lot of blame to go around for this, including the Clinton Campaign's strategy.

The irony is Hillary's plans would have served these folks much better. Oh well.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
11. Hillary's message to them was globalism, which is what they hate
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:05 PM
Nov 2016

And is what killed their jobs to start with. She took too long to turn against TPP and they didn't trust her

JHan

(10,173 posts)
18. Between her and Sanders and Trump she was the only one who intuitively knew the challenges ahead..
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:25 PM
Nov 2016

Should she have lied about coal coming back? Or steel- which has been dying since the 70's?

"Globalism" killed jobs? to an extent yes, but it's not the real eater of jobs. As I said elsewhere today:

3) Trade Deals and Jobs - NAFTA's harshest critics claim that the deal cost us approximately 750,000 jobs. Ignoring for a minute the new jobs created by freer trade between US, Canada and Mexico, that may sound like a lot but the jobs made redundant due to Technology dwarfs this number. In fact, jobs started disappearing since the 1970's but let's look at this century: Between 2000-2010 , Technology made 5.6 million American jobs redundant, see here http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-griswold-globalization-and-trade-help-manufacturing-20160801-snap-story.html
Even Salon is coming round to this: http://www.salon.com/2016/04/10/technology_fcked_us_all_the_anxiety_driving_donald_trump_and_bernie_sanders_is_really_about_machines_taking_our_jobs/

"Technology continues to eat away at jobs - As manufacturing becomes "smarter", the job market will shrink. We've seen huge spikes in Productivity gains since the turn of this century, and fewer manufacturing jobs- that is the problem which not a single candidate addressed adequately because everyone was high hating on trade deals when THIS should have been the major issue of 2016. it is also why no renegotiation of trade deals or Sanders-like protectionism will stop this trend - in fact the approach of Trump and Sanders will make things worse for us globally, killing our competitiveness and locking off markets to small to medium size business owners leaving only conglomerates with the capital to offset the drawbacks- not to mention the effects of higher tariffs like price inflation. "

Add to that Right To Work laws where we're seeing jobs hop from state to state. None of this was explored this year fully because this wasn't a policy-driven election year..

Her idea to retrain and help victims of this new economy transition should have resonated but so many were "angry" and populists stoked their anger and fears, even if those populists lied or gave them false hope.

So all the issues she would have addressed - Mental health Care, Opoid Abuse, Fixing Obamacare etc, all opportunities lost because she didn't lie enough?

TheKentuckian

(26,030 posts)
154. "Retraining" for nonexistent jobs likely to be globalized or flooded into wage crashing/criteria
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:54 PM
Nov 2016

ratcheting doesn't resonate as well as you think especially when you are like 50-55 and as things stand you are going to be paying a loan out of their Social Security (if they don't get screwed out of that like everything else).

I'm also not buying the honest shtick either when you know you are lying like a motherfucker that hundreds of millions of people can have a decent job with education. It is a supply side job market theory and it just isn't true. The reality is their might be few 100,000 jobs looking for the right prospect and that is in no small part because companies want cheaper hires than experienced folks that have been looking and/or temping for years.

If everyone in the country had a PhD then we'd be calling the garbage man, the meter maid, the kat in the unemployment line, the pole dancer, the ditch digger, and the dude the hangs at the liquor store doctor.

It isn't just the rust belt you don't have any answers for.
You don't have answers for most people when it comes down to it, not even the majority of the people in the great advanced coastal metros that aren't in the upwardly mobile/well heeled sets in such locales so fuck them too, maybe throw a minimum wage increase for those that can find something and even that maybe a tenth of what the better of still would be terribly concerned about a 3% tax on what they make over that 10x income but have no bones about throwing a 10% tithe to the insurance cartel onto someone in the same city they call a struggle making a fucking sliver of what they pull down.

You are also essentially telling those folks that aren't good at school that they are left for dead. There is no welfare. Housing waits are into the years. You can't be able to to afford to pay attention to qualify for food stamps.

Dressed up Social Darwinism it seems to me.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
155. Hold on..
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 12:06 AM
Nov 2016

""Retraining" for nonexistent jobs likely to be globalized or flooded into wage crashing/criteria ratcheting doesn't resonate as well as you think especially when you are like 50-55 and as things stand you are going to be paying a loan out of their Social Security (if they don't get screwed out of that like everything else).
"

---------Yeah it doesn't sell well, that's the unfortunate reality but it's the necessity because some industries aren't making a come back. the elites failed to mitigate the ill effects of economic policy on those harmed by changes in the market.

"I'm also not buying the honest shtick either when you know you are lying like a motherfucker that hundreds of millions of people can have a decent job with education. It is a supply side job market theory and it just isn't true. The reality is their might be few 100,000 jobs looking for the right prospect and that is in no small part because companies want cheaper hires than experienced folks that have been looking and/or temping for years. "

------- I am not "lying like a motherfucker" - Automation is eating up jobs and will continue to do so, nothing will stop this trend. We have been in transition since the 1970's when manufacturing jobs slowly dwindled.

And it's not just manufacturing jobs we need to worry about. There are even complaints about sourcing labor for jobs in healthcare of all things. And then there are the right to work laws that see jobs hop from state to state.

"It isn't just the rust belt you don't have any answers for.
You don't have answers for most people when it comes down to it, not even the majority of the people in the great advanced coastal metros that aren't in the upwardly mobile/well heeled sets in such locales so fuck them too, maybe throw a minimum wage increase for those that can find something and even that maybe a tenth of what the better of still would be terribly concerned about a 3% tax on what they make over that 10x income but have no bones about throwing a 10% tithe to the insurance cartel onto someone in the same city they call a struggle making a fucking sliver of what they pull down. "

-------- It's not my job to have answers, I'm not a politician. I'm a young voter who tries to understand what the deal is because my future is at stake. If you think your anger is justified, my anger could blow up all of fucking New York. I had to endure a year where the issues I wanted to discussed were never discussed to my liking and it's my generation which will have to contend with the bullshit and try to fix it..

"You are also essentially telling those folks that aren't good at school that they are left for dead. There is no welfare. Housing waits are into the years. You can't be able to to afford to pay attention to qualify for food stamps. " -

---------Absolutely no where did I argue this, you're making assumptions about me and creating a false narrative about what I said because you disagree with me.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,297 posts)
7. No, the current message
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 01:57 PM
Nov 2016

is that we didn't really lose, that the election was stolen, so we don't need to change anything before the 2018 elections with regards to voter outreach.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
64. Which better change...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:48 PM
Nov 2016

...before too long or we can kiss 2020 goodbye (2018 is nearly already a lost cause)

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
149. Political Russian roulette, but you may be right.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:17 PM
Nov 2016

Or maybe people need a few months to blow off steam and by the end of next year the national leadership will be working on programs to help the country and to help win elections??

I admit I am not enjoying the suspense.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,297 posts)
150. I think it has to be a three-pronged approach
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:22 PM
Nov 2016

1) Current legislators need to fight Trump and the Republicans on every front, including getting info out to voters about how the proposed/enacted Republican agenda items harm everyone

2) Voter suppression laws have to be fought at the state level, in court and in the state legislatures

3) In states with voter suppression laws, individuals and groups need to actively seek out and assist those who are being negatively impacted by voter suppression laws. Paying for birth certificates in order for people to be able to register and obtain photo ID, standing outside of polling places on election days to assist those who were forced to cast provisional ballots obtain and submit required information, etc. While we fight to overturn suppression laws, we need to assist those who are impacted by them.

SidDithers

(44,249 posts)
8. No...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:00 PM
Nov 2016

But all Trump voters made the conscious choice that racism wasn't enough of a reason to disqualify someone from the office of President in 2016.

Sid

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
14. In reality, people care about their economic survival before
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:08 PM
Nov 2016

they can care about anything else. That's not racism, that's self preservation and it's a big reason we lost the rust belt

hamsterjill

(15,501 posts)
84. Not all people.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 09:26 PM
Nov 2016

I vote on social issues. I believe many Dems do. We see the world.

The Republucans vote economy first. They see ME! ME!! ME!!!

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
108. You must be well off to have such a luxury
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:50 PM
Nov 2016

Nevertheless, we can't ignore the many people who are concerned with their economic survival

hamsterjill

(15,501 posts)
137. No, I am not well off.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:06 AM
Nov 2016

I am simply more concerned about mankind than just myself because it is readily visible to me that what is toxic for mankind is toxic for me. Guess that's an unimaginable thing for some, but I don't believe I am alone in my thinking.

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
87. Those people didn't care enough about their economic survival to listen long enough to find out
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:14 PM
Nov 2016

who would actually help them with their economic survival.

They were willing to believe the snake oil salesman over someone who would actually have made a positive difference in their lives because they were guided by their prejudices.

That's not self preservation. That's blaming your problems on a scapegoat and cutting your own throat. There's not a lot that can be done to bring people in that kind of a state around to reality.

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
134. You can't look at Hillary's site either? Are your fingers broken? For people who are
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 07:34 AM
Nov 2016

"suffering" so, you'd think there would be some willingness to even look at what she was offering. But they didn't bother. And now you are doing the same. That's not "suffering." That's wallowing.

And her plan sure as hell didn't involve lying to them and telling them that a repeal of NAFTA would bring back their jobs. Her plan had the profound disadvantage of speaking the truth to them and showing them respect. Clearly it was misplaced.

dawg

(10,725 posts)
138. A 15.00 an hour minimum wage ....
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 09:16 AM
Nov 2016

tuition-free college for people from families making less than $85,000 a year, reduced interest payments on existing student-loan debt, guaranteed maternal leave, and numerous improvements and repairs to our, admittedly, imperfect universal health insurance plan.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
168. Completely wrong. Most of it is not concious choice. Your comment is what's wrong with Democrats
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 10:31 AM
Nov 2016

in general.

Voters most often don't even engage in conscious thought.

Expecting rational arguments to sway voters is a losing strategy.

Especially when your opponent is pushing the fear and rage buttons repeatedly and often.

PoorMonger

(844 posts)
16. Not That Simple
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:13 PM
Nov 2016

But we do need to find a way to communicate with a mass of people who aren't interested in actual facts. This is the major problem facing the Democratic Party losing the low information voter that has now become the false information voter. Trump's economic plan doesn't help them, and it was never designed to. It's a massive tax cut for rich people like him.

It isn't as sinister as finding a way to lie to them too - but we do need to appeal to their emotions more - that is what Trump did effectively. In a world where you can't convince people with facts ( because they aren't trusted) you need to find a way to connect them with realities of how they are being impacted.

We need a lot of help finding candidates for lower office in The House & Senate that these people can relate to first and foremost. In the aftermath of a loss like this we often want to look ahead at our next possible Presidential nominee ; but that's four years out. We need help now. We must dust ourselves off and work toward 2018 - and never give up pushing back against Trump or the tide of bullshit he will assuredly unleash upon our nation.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
17. They used to have thriving communities
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:22 PM
Nov 2016

and good jobs and now they don't. They blame NAFTA and globalist strategies like TPP and Trump was listening to them and we were not. Those are the facts. Perhaps we are the ones who can't deal with the facts

TwilightZone

(28,833 posts)
25. Trump wasn't listening to them. He was pandering to them.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:00 PM
Nov 2016

He lied about everything else. Why would they believe him about jobs?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
27. Of course he listened
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:02 PM
Nov 2016

He has already made it his priority in the first 100 days to destroy TPP and NAFTA. That's why he won

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
30. The rust belt flipped red
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:08 PM
Nov 2016

And people in those states have repeatedly said that free trade/jobs is their big issue. If we had listened we would have won

LenaBaby61

(6,991 posts)
37. And what jobs plan ...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:40 PM
Nov 2016

ideas DID tRump put out there as it relates to bringing all those Rust Belt jobs BACK here to the USA that were lost over 40 years ago due to automation amongst other things?

The man buys steel from China to build his buildings, but him buying steel from China employs Chinese workers--it doesn't give not ONE job to workers in THIS country where there are STILL steel mills cranking out steel. The man mass produces most of all his goods overseas which gives work to workers over there ---->, not here in the USA. The man said that $7.25 is TOO high of a federal minimum wage. He also said that maybe we don't NEED a federal minimum wage at all. How much per hour do these people think is a fair wage? Now, those are all facts too. What do they want to work FOR? $2.00, $3.00? Any lower than that, and they'll be working for FREE.

SO those "things" appeal to those who voted for him? You said they were listening to him. I don't think they were, because if they understood him and are willing to work for peanuts--that's if they GET a job--then they may be PAST the stage of reasoning with.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
49. He buys his steel and other things from China because
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:17 PM
Nov 2016

of NAFTA, and those people in the rust belt lost their jobs not due to automation but factory relocation after NAFTA. TPP is very similar and Trump was speaking to that issue and Hillary was not. It's very simple

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
116. No.. no ... no....he can buy steel in the US and not for twice its price. He buys steel in
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:16 AM
Nov 2016

... China for the slim margins not because he's saying 3/4 of the price.

I ship from China often because I have no choice, with steel DPutin has a choice

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
89. Trump lied to them. When NAFTA and TPP are gone, their lives are not going to get any
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:22 PM
Nov 2016

better. Those are the facts. Hillary chose not to lie to them.

Hillary had plans that would actually improve the economic prospects for their communities. They did not believe that she did, though the plans were there for all to see, because they were blinded by their prejudices about her personally.

No. We are dealing with facts just fine. They are living in an alternate reality where someone is going to rescue them from mechanization and the march of progress. It's not going to happen. It's not "ignoring their plight" to be honest about that fact.

I'm just not going to flagellate myself because the rust belt made an idiotic choice. That is not a problem with us. That is a problem with them.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
23. They voted for economic survival
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:58 PM
Nov 2016

Not for racism. It's really very simple, and we need to revamp our economic message or suffer more defeats

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
40. With a 4.9% he rate and even lower in the lost HRC projected states? The jobless
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:58 PM
Nov 2016

.. recovery is a myth and MSN groupthink

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
51. The jobless rate is misinterpreted
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:20 PM
Nov 2016

Job creation has not been in the middle/working class area. Low wage service jobs are not a replacement to well paying manufacturing jobs, and the unemployment rate isn't accounting for people who have given up looking

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
56. This is false on its face ... Waco link inside... Its a rwtp.. I wish we wouldn't repeat it
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:27 PM
Nov 2016
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/upshot/a-low-wage-recovery-the-evidence-isnt-there.html

The low wage recovery was something the right pushed nut was factually not the case after 2013...

Sans anecdotes
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
60. Have you been to Michigan lately?
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:32 PM
Nov 2016

Go look at the abandoned towns and tell them the NY Times said everything is great. This is exactly the problem with our party.

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
65. Michigan's UE rate is 5.4% and the same can be said about towns in CA
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:48 PM
Nov 2016

... there are a lot of those places that are hurting but not willing to vote for an out right bullshitter like DPutin

Also I'd like to see the now and then UE rates of these places... I'm a lil sceptical they're doing worse now than before Obama was elected

We were fucked last time with the Americas economy is bad talk ... As if it's worse now

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
112. article doesn't address the question about jobs in those areas then and now... if they're ...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:58 PM
Nov 2016

... for the most part doing better then fuck em.

I wouldn't change too much seeing she lost by less than 100,000 votes... in 3 of those swing states

Jus make those 100k up in other areas of those states and try not to keep them so tight next time.

Part of my job is science by trade, there's no way I'm going to believe a damn poll without an empirical post mortem of how 95% of them got it so wrong in those states.

Even Silver isn't being empirical right now.. fuck him too... I'm not accounting for race without seeing his calculations.


On the other hand if the news that they seldom if ever went to those places to talk to them to keep the margins down then I can see how she lost those areas big... that's a tactical mistake not a strategic one ...

we'll see... I need to see before and after UE numbers for those "hurting" towns... not M$M groupthink

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
113. So we are in the minority in
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:02 AM
Nov 2016

both houses of congress, we lost the white house, the supreme court, and republicans have way more governors in the country and your response is "I wouldn't change too much."

We have to wake up

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
114. We're in the minority in the house because of gerrymandering, that's a known knowm... we're
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:08 AM
Nov 2016

... in a minority in the senate because of REALLY REALLY fucked up exit polls and 4 generations of voting models being off and not taken the presidency because of the latter.

Give me calculations and not supposition, that's way more ... factual... to me....Everything else is bullshit guessing or M$M group think.

Dean's right, we have to have a 50 state strategy ... but not hammer ourselves on this when there's so much on the face of it that is so wrong mathemetically... I'm more of a facts person not a guess where I fucked up person.

Give me before and after UE rates in those counties ... I think the BLS has them already.

I see WI ... it has a 4.4 UE rate and a 2 year rising LFPR (so the bullshit "minimum wage recovery" is down the drain) but I'm trying to break it out county by county.

If those counties are still hurting then there's some credence to they felt left behind, if they're recovering from Bush then fuck em... feed em beans

no doubt

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
117. exit polls?
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:18 AM
Nov 2016

Exit polls are to blame for our minority in the senate? That doesn't make sense. And how do you account for all the lost races for governor? It isn't just a coincidence the Democratic Party is basically useless at this point and you don't want to listen to the actual people who are voting against our party?

You don't need UE rates, you just need to listen to these people to find out why they didn't vote for our Party. And in case you missed it, here it is again..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/11/22/daily-202-rust-belt-dems-broke-for-trump-because-they-thought-clinton-cared-more-about-bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
120. No but exit polls and 95% of the generational polling science being wrong something fucked
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:25 AM
Nov 2016

... up on its face and not "these people are left out" without anything empirical to prove such.

I'm looking at those WI counties and they're UE rate looks better now than when Obama got in office...


Fuck em... the ones that she lost ... fuck em... they want to go back to shit economics because whose in their bath rooms fuck em... those people can't be reached... they're voting for other reason than pocket book reasons.


I ... DO... need UE rates, fuck the bullshit... I need the UE rates to establish the fact they're saying they're worse off now than when Obama got into office.

Now what the fuck are their economics going to be under this asshole?!

How in the hell is he going to beat 4.4 UE rate with a rising LFPR in the counties that went red?

When they're WORSE ... WORSE in 2 years then they're not going to give a fuck about bathrooms... and if they do then let them soak in it... focus on flip counties Obama won and beat the margins lost with this year.

HDSam

(251 posts)
123. Please tell...
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:38 AM
Nov 2016

me, how are the long-term unemployed (over 26 weeks) accounted for in the unemployment rate?

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
125. A rising LFPR, that's how I'm hedging the "jobs less recovery" MSM meme... Labor Force
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:43 AM
Nov 2016

... participation is rising and the U6 rate is falling then people who want a job and don't have a job are being accounted for in the U3 rate.

Either way, these counties have better economics now than then... why fuck that up with who's in their bathrooms?!

No, not all these people are racist but they're willing to support a person who's overtly one then there's something wrong on the face of things.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
78. I've been to Michigan
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:37 PM
Nov 2016

I'm here right now. I live in a half abandoned town. We're doing way better than we were during the recession.

Do you know who lives in Flint? Mainly people of color. Do you know for whom the people of Flint voted?

It was largely rural people in Michigan who voted for him. People in more industrial areas largely voted for Clinton. Do you have any idea how racist rural Michigan is? Rural Ohio? Rural Wisconsin? It's pretty bad.

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
124. Thank you for this, this is my theory also... that the rural towns are doing better economically
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:40 AM
Nov 2016

... now than they were during the recession and they just decided to be assholes and vote for the "those people" person.

I'm trying to break the UE and the LFPR rates down in those rural areas.

If they're mostly doing better now than in 2009 then fuck em

Of course, we need an all county and 50 state strategy to get the margins of loss to our side but thinking about flipping those areas .... I'm thinking they'll be more concerned about who uses their bathrooms.

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
133. No, the bullshit you talked about in the above post of your gish gallop. But this is bullshit too.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 07:28 AM
Nov 2016

Obviously.

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
91. Obviously they didn't because they voted for the candidate who has no prospect of improving
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:29 PM
Nov 2016

their economic situation. They voted for him over the candidate who had workable plans to help them.

So no. They didn't vote for economic survival. They didn't even bother to learn which candidate would actually help with their economic survival.

What would you have the message "revamped" to? That the heyday of the rust belt is going to return? That manufacturing jobs with unions are going to come back and those white boys are going to be handed the factory jobs that let them live at the standard their grandfathers lived? Because that's what they want to hear, and it doesn't seem like they will accept any other answer.

Coventina

(27,869 posts)
105. Donald Trump is a naked racist endorsed by the KKK.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 11:38 PM
Nov 2016

Anyone who voted for him endorsed racism. Period.

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
127. "bathrooms" being their interest then the DNC isn't going to reach them at all... they're ecomically
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:46 AM
Nov 2016

.. secure enough to give a fuck who's in their bathrooms while everyone else is trying to get and keep good jobs.

Then in that case you're right... the DNC isn't going to change their message to bathrooom issues to reach these people though

Coventina

(27,869 posts)
129. Riiiiiight. Sunshine and lollipops being sold in the form of calling others rapists, murderers,
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:12 AM
Nov 2016

Reminiscing about the good old days when it was normal to beat "the Other".

All stuff peddled by a three time loser of a real estate agent who couldn't make money with a casino.

Anyone who voted for Trump can AT BEST be called extremely stupid. Any American amount of due diligence for being an informed voter would have raised them either to becoming pro Hillary, if they went for Trump they were evil. There's just no excuse for it.

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
118. I'd like to see this, if their lives are that much worse now than BEFORE Obama then you have a point
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:18 AM
Nov 2016

... but if their shit got better then fuck em... feed em beans.

Talk to em, yes... get the margin of loss slimmer ... yes...

But don't expect too much from them in the way of turning those places blue... they're lost

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
119. What? They've been blue for a long time.. And you say just consider them lost forever?
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:21 AM
Nov 2016

Dude... come on

uponit7771

(91,670 posts)
122. The flip counties have NOT been blue for a long time unless you're counting Obama as "long time"
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:34 AM
Nov 2016

... I'm talking about the counties she lost that Obama won in PA, WI, MI, and OH.

If those counties want to concentrate on who goes to their bathrooms vs who can develope their counties into centers of commerce then how in the hell are we supposed to reach them?

I'm not for second going to believe dems are just as bad as reps on the free trade issue either... that's false equivalence BS... dems aren't 100% innocent but there's no way they're just as bad.

Let them concentrate on who goes to their bathrooms when they have no more bathrooms maybe they'll think about it for second.

We need a 50 state and all county strategy... of course... just to get the margin of loss down... winning them?

NO... fuck that, its pretty hard to talk to people like that IMHO

RobinA

(10,139 posts)
163. They Voted For
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 09:01 AM
Nov 2016

a pipe dream of economic survival. They continually and for quite some time now send people to Congress who are opposed to any effort to better their situation.

The Democrats need to do a better job of getting out what they are doing and are trying to do. Obama's attempt to significantly increase overtime eligibility only really got any notice when a judge in Texas said it was unConstitutional, and even then it probably got lost in the shuffle, because you would have had to, um...pay attention, to have caught it. He should have noted long and loud what they were doing, and exactly who opposed it and who was for it.

BlueStater

(7,596 posts)
21. Perhaps not.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:51 PM
Nov 2016

But it would seem they didn't care about other races enough to not cast a vote for that unqualified orange fuckball.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
24. That's the path to oblivion for the Party.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 02:59 PM
Nov 2016

Economic survival in the rust belt is not a race issue

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
94. I have to say that I disagree. If they are willing to give his racism a pass because of some other
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:35 PM
Nov 2016

thing they think he can give them, they are racist.

I really think you have to have either overt or unexamined racism to have voted for him.

 

MadamPresident

(70 posts)
31. No, they're stupid too.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:17 PM
Nov 2016

Orange Julius got 40% of the union vote. These are very stupid people. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact. If you're a union guy and you voted for the right to work party, that makes you stupid. It just does. Being so naïve as to think that this billionaire novice is going to be looking out for the little guy is absurd. These people bought a line of bullshit so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously in any capacity.

It wouldn't be so bad if only they were made to suffer for this but we're all going to feel the pain.

LenaBaby61

(6,991 posts)
39. No, they're stupid too.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:55 PM
Nov 2016

EXCELLENT POST.

Like you said, some folks are just PAST the stage of reasoning WITH.

Voting in your own worst interest. Sorry, but that does make you dumb.

spin

(17,493 posts)
75. In my opinion it may not be wise to call union voters who deserted ...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:25 PM
Nov 2016

Hillary "stupid." That may be totally accurate in this case but when you call people stupid their immediate reaction is not positive in the least.

Many union voters have helped formed a strong and reliable voting block that voted for Democrats for generations. We need to talk with them and find out why we lost their loyalty of so many. It might be wise to find ways to address their concerns. We definitely should not alienate them.

Trump made many exorbitant promises. Even if he actually tries to deliver on them he will fall far short and it seems he has little or no desire to do even make the effort. I seriously doubt that he could win a second term in office and he may not even try. Still another candidate may pick up where he left off and push many of the policies he advocated in his campaign.

Still we did lose a significant portion of the union vote. Do they view that they have been taken for granted by the Democratic Party? Do they oppose trade agreements like NAFA and TPP as they feel it has cost them well paying jobs? How was Trump able to reach them? Would they have voted for Bernie or Biden but simply distrusted Hillary?

We can learn valuable lessons from this election if we try. We need to or we may find our party out in the cold. We may be the party of the intellectual elite and if true we should be smart enough to find how to appeal to those who lack a college education.





 

MadamPresident

(70 posts)
136. As a union worker I can attest to the stupidity.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 08:54 AM
Nov 2016

Yes NAFTA sucked. Yes the TPP sucks. But to vote for a right to work person over an establishment person who has a record of supporting labor is just stupid. There's no other way around that.

Yes, the Democratic Party has put the interests of labor on the back burner since the late 80s but what exactly has the Republican Party done for labor ever? Absolutely nothing.

To not see the con that Trump has been running this entire time is the ultimate in naïveté. Union people who voted for him are the ultimate representation of P.T. Barnum's famous words.

And from what I heard from my colleagues, much of their desire to vote for him stemmed from the racial bullshit, flat out sexism and guns more than anything. I can't even tell you how many lame period jokes I heard about Hillary Clinton on the job site. People still think that shit's clever in the construction world. Just as they still think pointing out that Elton John is gay every time one of his songs comes on the radio is funny. A lot of these people are coming from an archaic mindset.

I can't think of anything else to call them but stupid. But we're just talking amongst ourselves here. Obviously, that's not how we should approach it from a national political perspective.

spin

(17,493 posts)
151. Welcome to DU by the way. ...
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:32 PM
Nov 2016

You do agree that the Democratic Party has ignored labor since the late 80s. While the Reublicans have never done anything for labor perhaps they will begin to at least listen to the concerns of workers in the future. I doubt if we will lose all of our labor supprort but we could lose a portion of it.

While I have never worked construction I have known people who do. Before I moved after retiring one of my next door neighbors was a supervisor on construction sites. I conce asked him who were the best workers in construction and he told me it was definitely the Mexicans.

I come from a long line of union workers who worked in the iron and steel mills in Pennsylvania. All owned firearms and some had used them to defend themselves or their family. I also own firearms but on this issue it seems the Democratic Party has left me more than I have left them. In my opinion gun control is a ball and chain around the ankle of our party.

RobinA

(10,139 posts)
164. Couldn't Agree More
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 09:36 AM
Nov 2016

I'm a union person as well, and I'll attest to the stupidity. The stuff you hear is unbelieveable. I, too, am a little bit at a loss as to how to reach these people who don't make any sense.

I do think Dems could do a better job at advertising what they do and try unsuccessfully due to a Repub Congress to do. If voters aren't going to make any attempt to know what is going on maybe it's time to hit them over the heads with it.

spin

(17,493 posts)
77. I know people who definitely could be called racist. ...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:35 PM
Nov 2016

They definitely showed up at the polls and voted against Obama twice but there were not enough of them to prevent him from winning.

Is racism in this nation growing significantly or are there prerhaps other reasons to explain why Hillary lost? In my opinion the loss of jobs in the rust belt due to trade treaties is definitely one of those reasons.

OhioBlue

(5,126 posts)
126. yes! Top DEMS in Ohio have campaigned against trade deals for years
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:44 AM
Nov 2016

Sherrod Brown campaigned on "job killing trade deals". He wrote a book about it. He opposed Bill Clinton on NAFTA. Marcy Kaptur has campaigned against them. Brown is THE ONLY statewide Dem we have left! When Trump started his rhetoric against NAFTA I was worried for Ohio in a Trump vs Clinton match up. I almost switched parties to vote for Kasich because I thought it might lead to a brokered convention. I ultimately voted for Bernie in the primary. I didn't want to switch my party and thought he would run better against Trump because of trade deals and economy. Then, the conventions happened, the debates happened, the general campaign went on and p-gate happened. I had hope Ohio would go for Clinton, but the trade deals killed us. The giant sucking sound didn't only happen in the urban areas. It happened all over Ohio. Lots of empty factories or factories that have been turned into warehouses or assembly shops. Union jobs have been decimated as have working wages, employer provided health care, pensions, etc.

We can dismiss those voters, tell them we don't care, don't need them and call them names but that isn't going to help us win. Admittedly - I am still pissed at a lot of the Trump voters in my rural, Ohio area. But I want to flip enough of them for the next election rather than telling them to F*&k off.

spin

(17,493 posts)
130. I grew up in Ohio but joined the Air Force back in the 1960s. ...
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:32 AM
Nov 2016

When I left the AF after one tour I went back to northern Ohio for a few months. Back in those days there were loads of good paying jobs in the local industries near Cleveland. However I decided that living once again in the snow belt was not for me. I moved to Florida and got a job in the aerospace industry. I retired after 37 years. I decided that since when people retired in Ohio they often headed to Florida so why not beat the rush.

Had I stayed in Ohio I would have watched all the jobs disappear and would most likely have had to start over somewhere else. I'm glad I left.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
34. It's a reason, but not important
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:23 PM
Nov 2016

It's not somethingnto worry about as far as future elections go, I think. The 46% or so who didn't vote at all are who we should be thinking about, and implementing a 50 state strategy. Clinton won the popular vote, and Trump had less votes than Romney.

The positive is that this was in the face of a 40 year smear campaign, and the unprecedented event of both Russia and the FBI actively working against her, and massive voter suppression efforts by thr opposition.

Now think about how a few basic changes in the party could have overcome all that. If the supreme court and enviromental issues didn't make this past election so devastating, and Trump weren't so dangerously stupid and evil, I'd feel pretty good about the future.

There are real issues with corporate corruption inluencing the party that need dealt with, and a real 50 state strategy needs to be implemented.

I worry about overcorrecting on the issue of "identity politics" though. There's a lot of Bernie's message I like, which is why I voted for him in the primaries. The problem is that the idea that "a rising tide lifts all boats" is not really true. Lots of minorities in the U.S. have been left out of past periods of prosperity, and have been actively beat down when they do experience that. Talking about abandoning identity politics in favor of a pure economic message ignores reality. Identity and ecomimics is linked. You need both messages.

alarimer

(16,554 posts)
80. It is incredibly easy to get people to turn on each other.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:44 PM
Nov 2016

We forget sometimes that this is how Republicans have operated for decades, only not so nakedly.
There have been plenty of nativists in American politics even before that. It's non-racism that is the anomaly.

I take a dim view of human nature myself and think it will always be with us because it is human nature to be tribal. Only liberal values will save us. There has been a retreat from those values lately and not just in the US. This shit is happening all over.

We can overcome but we need a Democratic Party that is truly progressive and works for everyone. From a simple numbers point of view, we cannot write off millions of voters, side we still have the Electoral College. And the President is still President of all the states.

The larger issue is Democratic Party establishment and the fact it is so out of touch. Some of the "elitist" criticism is valid.

duncang

(3,553 posts)
35. From what I've seen no
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:35 PM
Nov 2016

There is a pretty fair amount that are. But not all are. A few friends of mine only watch faux news and accept as the truth all the email lies. They have been conditioned over the years that democrat, liberal, progressive are all cuss words. And anything repub is good and holy. Obama and all the democrats were going to take everyone's guns away and declare marshal law. Even the union friends think the unions are evil they have been brainwashed so thoroughly. One friend I have asked was I evil when I saved you from being fired as a union steward? Were you evil the whole 35 years you worked union? Or was it all the profit was going to stock options the board was getting making more in a hours time selling them then our groups entire years pay?

Bucky

(55,334 posts)
44. but we shouldnt treat getting duped by racists as indelible moral stain
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 04:09 PM
Nov 2016

People who in their economic despair yielded to prejudicial thinking arent morally lost forever. They just need to hear better arguments from the party that has their true interests at heart.

We aren't going to retake the House by dismissing two thirds of white voters as racists. You have to be more pragmatic than that

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
38. Trump told
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 03:43 PM
Nov 2016

those dumb fuckers a bunch of lies and they believed him. If we stoop to lying and courting racist whites, then I don't want to be a Democrat anymore.

Bucky

(55,334 posts)
43. People who think all Trump voters are racists are not thinking clearly
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 04:02 PM
Nov 2016

but as Baron Montesquieu told us in the 1750s, it's very hard for a country to have a republican form of government when its size is so big and its interests are so deeply diverse.

Bucky

(55,334 posts)
42. No, that would be a dumb, hopeless message
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 04:00 PM
Nov 2016

People were suckered by Trump and abandoned by the Dems who quit fighting for the working class so hard.

We can get back to equilibrium, but it will take backing away from chumminess with Wall Street fat cats

 

jack_krass

(1,009 posts)
46. This is the message of most of the "elites" on this site. I think the Democratic party
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 05:10 PM
Nov 2016

in general knows better, and will adopt a more inclusive posture.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
52. I hate to admit it but the elitist label
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:23 PM
Nov 2016

rings true when the condescending "they're all racist" charge is rolled out rather than honest introspection

Hekate

(94,503 posts)
47. Is that your takeaway from this RIGGED election?
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 05:15 PM
Nov 2016

Because in case you have not noticed yet, Hillary won the popular vote.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
53. You didn't read the whole op did you...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:24 PM
Nov 2016

And all I have to do is listen to fellow democrats to know that the racism excuse is the default response

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
55. So your strategy
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:26 PM
Nov 2016

is not to listen to the people in the rust belt that just switched parties and put Trump in the White House? Ok, guess we can start writing the Democratic party's obituary

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
76. Yep- every person positing this let's cater to the rust belt is ignoring a hell of a lot....
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:29 PM
Nov 2016

And making up narratives that suit the strategy they'd like to see.

Squinch

(52,592 posts)
97. Again, that's what you got from that post? You keep putting words in people's mouths that are not
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 10:43 PM
Nov 2016

even remotely there.

Lotusflower70

(3,090 posts)
54. I hope not
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:26 PM
Nov 2016

No doubt it was a factor but we can't focus on that. We have to focus on the economy and jobs. And we have to stay on message. Remain proactive not reactive.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
57. Well said. We have to learn from this.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:27 PM
Nov 2016

We aren't backing away from social issues, we're just bringing back an economic message to go with it that's isn't shit

elleng

(135,881 posts)
61. 'Our' message seems to be all over the map,
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:36 PM
Nov 2016

which is why we should take great care in reforming the Democratic Party.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
62. Clinton lost because Clinton forgot ...
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 06:38 PM
Nov 2016

... that "it's the economy, stupid."

I agree 100 percent with the OP: how is calling 61 million voters racists and misogynists a winning message for the future?

That being said, here is what I expect to hear from the establishment Democratic Party ...

1) We was robbed.
2) The conservatives won, so we probably ought to become more conservative if want to win in 2018.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
74. And yet..
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:23 PM
Nov 2016

Her economic vision and understanding of it is much better than his.. so how did you arrive at this?

No those coal jobs ARE NOT coming back, would you have rather she lied?

And yeah, if people are going to vote for a xenophobic racist fuck I am going to wonder why those facts weren't deal breakers for them at the ballot box.. I'll keep asking it! - Why did you vote for a man with a divisive platform, I'm going to wonder about the things they can ignore conveniently and the things they choose not to ignore. And yes, believe or not, millions of people can be racist.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
139. It's pretty elemental politics.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:49 AM
Nov 2016

If you can't communicate your message and/or proposals or if not enough people believe you ... you are going to lose.

And that is what happened where it mattered in 2016.

Trump will loot the national treasury, no doubt about it.
However, whining and moaning about racism, misogyny, et al. is not going to restore the Congress to the Democrats in 2018 nor put a Democrat in the White House in 2020.

If Democrats don't focus most of their attention and ideas on how to appeal to ALL working middle class Americans, then they are doomed for a generation.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
140. You can't convince me that her message didn't pierce through to people..
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:52 AM
Nov 2016

She's won the popular vote, she lost the electorate college by 60,000 votes. That is not a rejection of the liberal platform.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
143. She lost where it mattered.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:03 AM
Nov 2016

We will see that the run-up in Clinton's popular vote comes from California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.

And, whether you are ever convinced or not, in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania enough economically stressed voters didn't like or believe Clinton and she lost.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
144. I'll share this post again..
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:19 AM
Nov 2016

As I said in my other post to you, I acknowledge the failings in the midwest..

.. The larger argument is that the country is divided and not necessarily because of economic reasons.

A significant number of Trump supporters make above 60k a year. Struggling urbanites making less than 50k voted Clinton. Clinton also didn't do too shabby among rural voters last I checked.

The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.

Most Americans clearly saw through the bullshit.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
147. Right to the nub of the matter.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:01 PM
Nov 2016
The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.


Yup ... couldn't agree more.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
148. We can also add..
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:09 PM
Nov 2016

1) August was a critical month for the Clinton Camp - they dropped the ball.

2) The Democrats should have prepared for this year being the first year without Voting Rights Act in place and mobilized the Carolinas and other Southern States - they dropped the ball again.

3) A targeted campaign to retake the house should have started way back in 2013 and hooked onto the eventual Nominee. We had a 30 seat deficit ( this should have been the focus)

But number 2 really sores me up. We REALLY REALLY REALLY Should have prepared better for that.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
141. People are trying to work up a narrative around the narrowest of victories for Trump in the midwest.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:55 AM
Nov 2016

When the larger argument is that the country is divided and not necessarily because of economic reasons.

A significant number of Trump supporters make above 60k a year. Struggling urbanites making less than 50k voted Clinton. Clinton also didn't do too shabby among rural voters last I checked.

The problem with Clinton was the arrogance of her campaign towards the midwest - her campaign manager ignored Bill's sage advice to stay in the midwest and push hard for those extra votes. Bill's political instincts are sharper and better than hillary's and all her advisors combined, but this does not mean that the nation rejected Hillary and embraced Trump and his economic message.

Most Americans clearly saw through the bullshit.

Lil Missy

(17,865 posts)
73. Who is this "our" you speak of?
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 08:18 PM
Nov 2016

Does this mean that someone said something that you took out of context and attributed it to the whole population of DU? Or the entire population of Democrats?

musicblind

(4,562 posts)
82. The electoral college does not take away their vote or diminish them.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 09:18 PM
Nov 2016

Candidates would have to visit MORE states, not less, in order to focus on the popular vote.

Votes in states like Wyoming would matter again, both blue votes and red votes.

Not to mention that only 29% of people want to keep the Electoral College:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159881/americans-call-term-limits-end-electoral-college.aspx

50 Shades Of Blue

(10,887 posts)
83. In my book anyone who votes for a racist, is a racist.
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 09:20 PM
Nov 2016

Anyone so out of touch with reality as to believe Donald Trump gives the teeniest tiniest most microscopic shit about putting them back to work in a factory or mine has more problems than living in the rust belt They are just using that as an excuse. He spoke to their bigotry.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
85. All Trump voters are either racist, misogynist or both. They deserve the
Thu Nov 24, 2016, 09:29 PM
Nov 2016

fucking they are about to get, just as the yobs who voted for Reagan deserved the worst recession since the Great Depression. Fuck 'em.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
115. The type of ignorance that causes a person
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 12:13 AM
Nov 2016

to not comprehend beyond their own pocket book, other than being on the edge of starvation, is the type of ignorance that gives us a Donald Trump. To me Trump lives by the mantra that money is not everything but the only thing. His twisted politics reeks of this ignorance. That empathy, integrity and morality is an afterthought when it comes to life is typical of his personalty type.
It's a sad commentary that people vote thier pocketbooks. I think it's less human nature and more false promises of riches which most people will never see that drives voting. A lot of issues have been voted on that have nothing to do with money. A party with a true vision and goal for the future and can effectively cut through the noise that the love of money creates can win.

pnwmom

(109,535 posts)
128. They are all willing to vote for a man who blatantly pushed racist and sexist
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:05 AM
Nov 2016

memes throughout his campaign.

I think she would have won if James Comey hadn't dropped his letter bombs into the final days.

Mike Nelson

(10,268 posts)
131. No, not all were...
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:52 AM
Nov 2016

...but bigotry was his message - hate coupled with fear. The "rust belt" media thing is a simple way they avoid the truth. I will not stop talking about the bigotry and, considering the Trump picks, it will be difficult to avoid.

 

MyNameGoesHere

(7,638 posts)
132. I do feel for those in the rust belt.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 07:18 AM
Nov 2016

It must be really tiring to be racist, whining, and ignorant automatons.

 

quantumjunkie

(244 posts)
135. Electing Chuck Shumer as our new party Leader is not a good sign
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 07:36 AM
Nov 2016

The man has contempt for the rust belt folks. Recall he said the goal was to pick up moderate republicans.

ucrdem

(15,703 posts)
142. "Economic survival" is why they voted for Obama who saved their bacon.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 10:56 AM
Nov 2016

Unemployment is now below 5% in most of the rust belt, gas prices are down, travel is up, times are good. So many voters had the luxury of voting according to the backwash they see on teevee. If times were as hard as all that they wouldn't have.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
146. Agree - no matter how people feel, this approach is self-defeating.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 11:57 AM
Nov 2016

Many of these people voted for Obama once or twice. They are just not seeing any progress, and yes, they wanted to have that addressed in the election.

That's how democracy is supposed to work.

That's what the Democratic party is supposed to do.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
152. I'm glad that there are people out there that can still see past their emotions
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 08:30 PM
Nov 2016

and realize that people will vote for their own survival before they vote for ANYTHING ELSE. That is human nature. If we don't become the party that fights for the working class again, the rust belt will make damn sure the Democratic Party fades into history.

RobinA

(10,139 posts)
165. Don't Disagree
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 09:50 AM
Nov 2016

with your statement that people vote for economic survival first, although it pays to know what they consider "for" their survival, it might not be what other people think is "for" their survival. But what's the response in this instance when a large group of people, enough to swing an election, vote against their economic survival. Repeatedly. And I'm not just talking President.

Lizz612

(2,066 posts)
153. "Social issues"?
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:47 PM
Nov 2016
people vote for their economic survival first and social issues second.


The economic survival (and actual survival) of non-white people is not a social issue. It's an economic issue for non-white people and it's an economic issue for white people, we just need to be better at explaining that economic truth to white people.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
157. no - message is "election integrity" and "voter solutions"
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 07:37 AM
Nov 2016

if we can get that through the Trumpsters' brains, maybe we can get somewhere

RobinA

(10,139 posts)
160. Except For The Fact
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 08:42 AM
Nov 2016

that these people have been voting against their economic interest for quite some time now. They vilify Obama while he pushes legislation that would increase significantly the number of people eligible for overtime. As well, a lot more of them have health insurance than did before.

Article in either the Philadelphia Inquirer or the NYT this Sunday about Trump voters in Florida who hope he doesn't do away with ACA because they really depend on it. I'm not allowed to "condescend" to this kind of thinking, so I won't, but

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
161. At the bare minimum, they saw all the racist shit, and decided they could tolerate it.
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 08:42 AM
Nov 2016

That makes every single Trump voter an asshole in my book.

Every. Damned. One.

PufPuf23

(9,233 posts)
167. If that is what was learned by the 2016 election, the Democratic party has underestimated the scope
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 10:25 AM
Nov 2016

of the problem we face.

Regardless, I am sticking with the Democratic party, my life long affiliation however disappointing.

If DU (and specifically this thread) is indicative, Democrats have not had a learning moment from the election.

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