If you want to help HH and other Buddhists try and stop the NKT protests...

[Maraya1969]

Last edited Sat Feb 28, 2015, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

There are FB pages that post things that you can do. Like write letters, organize groups to block them when they protest, respond to their crazy videos etc.

These people do not just protest. They have several websites. They post lying videos and there is even one monk who changes from his robes into a suit and acts like a journalist interviewing NKT members.


New Kadampa survivors activists

https://www.facebook.com/NewKadampaSurvivorActvists

This is Exposing the New Kadampa Tradition

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1553521334914117/1554469664819284/?notif_t=group_activity

We need to talk about Shugden

https://www.facebook.com/linda.ciardiello/about

At one of their sites: http://internationalshugdencommunity.com/
they write such lies it is just unbelievable. For example one article on HH supposedly explains how he became a Lama. They say that after the 13th Dalai Lama died the Tibetan buddhists started looking for a "suitable child" They said he didn't recognize any of the 13th Dalai Lama's religious possessions and even said something like, "No, get that away from me"

[vlyons]

1. NKT will eventually fade away

I was involved with more than 1 false guru and cult. They are basically all the same. A con artist gives weak people a ready-made ideology belief system and a sense of belonging. This particular NKT cult seems to thrive on negativity and creating an enemy to fight against. And because they put so much energy into fighting the regular gelugpas and the DL, can the outcome be other than a bunch of people, who have been taught to exaggerate and carry grudges? No thanks, I don't want to fight the NKT or even defend the DL. HH the DL doesn't need me to defend him, because he is so far beyond being insulted by them, or harmed by them, that it seems ridiculous to me that he would ever be concerned about his reputation or veracity being questioned. His only concern is working for the benefit of others.

I think a more beneficial method is to teach the dharma about right speech, right action, etc. We cannot change other people. We can only change ourselves. See the NKT people for what they are, suffering people trapped into delusional dualistic thinking and very negative activities. I don't care if they worship Shugden; that is their right. I just don't see that Dorje Shugden practice has helped them to increase their loving kindness, certainly not towards the DL. If you still feel that you MUST DO SOMETHING, study some dharma teachings about right speech. Make your own speech and actions be beneficial to others. Who knows? Maybe a few well-spoken words to an NKT person will have a profound and beneficial effect. Don't set up the target for the arrow.

[Maraya1969]

2. I agree with a lot of what you said

But it is more than the Dalai Lama that these people are hurting. It is Buddhists all over. It has hurt me, (or I have judged or something to let it hurt me).

And I know the Dalai Lama is a Lama but he is not an enlightened being. So therefor he has human emotions. I'm sure he has compassion for these people but it must be hard to be followed around all of the world and see these people chanting "false Dalai Lama stop lying" Have you heard the way they say this? I think it is way freaky.

But I am going to look up Right Thought and see how it can help me in this situation.

[vlyons]

3. How have they hurt you?

Have they stolen your money, or beat you, or destroyed your property? Or is it your feelings that have been hurt? What are feelings and emotions? Are they real, solid things? If you put your feelings on a scale, what would they weigh? I assure that the DL would see these NKT people as the fruits of his on negative karma that is getting used up. The feelings that he would have would be sadness FOR them, not sadness for himself because of them. He would be sad because he knows that their negative actions will cause them future suffering and keep them trapped in samsara just that much longer. Disparaging a lama, or any truly holy and wise person, is really very bad karma. Actually wrongly slandering anyone is bad karma.

In Buddhism, we try to practice compassion and wisdom. And "wisdom" has a very special meaning: it is realizing that everything is empty. I would refer you to "The Wheel of Sharp Weapons" by Dharmarakshita. You can download a free pdf version of it. Here's a few stanzas from it:

Uncontrollable wandering through rounds of existence
Is caused by our grasping at egos as real.
This ignorant attitude heralds the demon
Of selfish concern for our welfare alone:
We seek some security for our own egos;
We want only pleasure and shun any pain.
But now we must banish all selfish compulsion
And gladly take hardship for all others' sake.

All of our sufferings derive from our habits
Of selfish delusions we heed and act out.
As all of us share in this tragic misfortune,
Which stems from our narrow and self-centered ways,
We must take all our sufferings and the miseries of others
And smother our wishes of selfish concern.

When we hear only language that is foul and abusive,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have said many things without thinking;
We have slandered and caused many friendships to end.
Hereafter let's censure all thoughtless remarks.

When unjustly we are blamed for the misdeeds of others,
And are falsely accused of flaws that we lack,
And are always the object of verbal abuse, .
This is the wheel of sharp· weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have despised and belittled our Gurus;
Hereafter let's never accuse others falsely,
But give them full credit for virtues they have.

When the force of attraction or that of repulsion
Colours whatever we hear or we say,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have ignored what has caused all our troubles:
The mass of delusion that dwells in our heart;
Hereafter let's try to abandon all hindrances--
Note their arisal, examine them well.

I just think that fighting against NKT people, or anyone, is really bad karma. Much better to simply see their ignorance for what it is. Much better to see their actions as not harming the DL in any way whatsoever, but as harming themselves immensely. It's even possible that NKT protests are all a Chinese plot, and these people have been duped and agitated into protests. They have certainly been duped and agitated by somebody. Fighting AGAINST them just holds their ignorance in place, because then they have a position to defend. And you have engaged in dualistic thinking of me/us versus them. And don't say that the DL is not enlightened. You don't know that.

That you are disturbed by these NKT people is an energy that you can use in your own spiritual path. If you could find compassion in your heart for them, what would that be like? What actions would compassion for them lead you to? Would you be motivated to learn about the history of the Gelug tradition? Maybe read something by Atisha or Tsongkapa? Would you practice some lojong for the benefit of these NKT folks?

My own personal refuge lama will not tolerate me telling him anything about any false gurus. He will change the subject or walk out of the room. I took that as a really important lesson.

Don't set up the target for the arrow.

[joshisaurous]

4. Vlyons a student of a shugden lama?

Just thought, to be fair, it should be pointed out that Vlyons is probably an online student of lama Tsem, a cult personality coordinates with NKT and other groups doing China's dirty work. I think this is the case because lama Tsem has almost no education and has only taught from a few authentic Buddhist texts (maybe 4-5) and one he relies on heavily is the Wheel of Sharp Weapons. The Wheel of Sharp Weapons is a relatively uncommon text to teach. This, "Disparaging a lama, or any truly holy and wise person, is really very bad karma." is also one of lama Tsem's tactics(criticism is required by the Bodhisattva vows in many cases so your blanket statement has no actual basis in Buddhism) to convince ex-students from telling others how he harmed them.

In addition, the theme of Vlyons seems to be "to do nothing".
Do nothing, as in, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Lama Tsem is a deceptive personality cult guru that collected donations under the pretense that some of it would be given to a monastery called Gaden Shartse. Instead, money after 2009 was used to establish anonymous websites attacking the Dalai Lama, Gaden Shartse, and the Tibetan Community in Exile which oppose the Chinese occupation of Tibet and the xenophobic supremacy cult which worships the spirit shugden. Tsem was exposed with a leaked video on youtube(now deleted) in late 2014.

Tsem used manipulative tactics to suppress information for over a decade including threatening frivolous lawsuits to discover online informant's identities and cause them to lose money on court costs. Currently one lawsuit is occuring https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/6686611/Kechara_House_Buddhist_Association_Malaysia_v_Does_13#parties). Within Malaysia they use the effective threat of lying to employers and the government to control ex-employees. Tsem's employees and online students are known for anonymously issuing threats online and promptly deleting them. They are also very well known for their abuse of social media using thousands of sock puppet accounts to sway opinions. Here's an outdated list of their exposed twitter accounts. http://pastebin.com/nQfvVRRn

So, to clear things up Vlyons, is your "own personal refuge" lama Tsem?
Or, do you feel the same way as everyone else about this American con-man abroad?


* Sorry about this being my first post here. I saw this come up in a search engine and this sock puppet things really grinds my gears.

[Maraya1969]

10. He said that he had been in a cult. One thing I have learned

is even if a person is a fraud or has some other bad qualities they still might be able to give you some wisdom.

Case in point. I was molested by a minister many years ago. I went through therapy, confronted him and basically healed from it. One of the things he said to me was, "If you want to say something to another person ask yourself, "Will it make this person richer for knowing what I have to say". If not then it's best to not say anything.

So I have used this over the years even before I knew anything about Buddhism. It is a good piece of wisdom and I'm not going to let it go because the man did a bad thing.

[vlyons]

13. Stop imputing your subjective crap onto me

No I am not a student of Lama Tsem. Never even heard of him. And no, I don't believe in doing nothing. I am in both the traditional Gelugpa and Karma Kagyu traditions.

[joshisaurous]

14. Tsem's students imitate others to sway opinion.

Vlyons, I'm sorry if pegging you as one of Tsem's sock puppets is mistaken.

Lama Tsem hired dozens of people just to pretend they're from other schools to promote him and attack others. I'm a moderator from a Buddhist forum that was completely overrun by them. It wasn't until someone pointed out their tricks that we realized so many were using a set of the same Malaysian IP addresses. After we banned hundreds of accounts using IP addresses, they started coming with proxies and I had to learn to pick them out of a crowd based on their rhetoric instead of the background they claimed to have in other schools.

It's worth pointing out that initially they went very far to integrate themselves into my forum with fictional personas and using multiple accounts to back up their stories by vouching for themselves as genuine Nyingma, Kagyu, etc as if they were a part of real Buddhist communities.

Trying to identify them is not 100% accurate; it's not perfect, but I do what I can to ensure my site has a democratic atmosphere where people with neurotic ambition for fame and a lack of integrity have a hard time artificially over representing themselves and forcing the appearance of consensus on Shugden and, probably more importantly, the right of China to dictate religion.

[vlyons]

15. Perhaps you should reread my posts again

I believe I clearly stated that attacking the Dalai Lama is a pointless endeavor. It doesn't ruin his reputation in any way, but rather brings disrepute onto the attacker. Divisive talk within the sangha has long been held as non-virtuous activity. Not right speech at all. I appreciate your trying to run an honest forum, where free speech is not undermined by those with nefarious agendas. We're all supposed to be working on getting enlightened, not getting dragged into deeper darkness. I personally could not care less if someone does or doesn't do Shugden practice. I do care if someone is trashing the Dalai Lama, not for his sake, but for theirs. How many Vajrasattva mantrams would someone have to say to clean up the bad karma from trashing the Dalai Lama? BTW: I'll be fortunate to see HH again in 10 days at an event in Dallas. I'm buzzed. My practice already feels energized. Go in peace, Joshi

[Maraya1969]

7. I appreciate what you say. And I copied that

part of the "Wheel of Sharp weapons" and printed it out.

It reminds me of "Non-resistance" Non-judgement" and "Non attachment" as being the way to peace.

[LiberalElite]

5. The Dalai Lama isn't enlightened? How's that? nt

[Maraya1969]

6. I just mean that he is not a Buddha. He is a Lama which means he

is much more evolved than the rest of us but Buddha's are a different thing altogether. When a person has reached Buddha hood can they not see everything as it truly is and are not at all entangled in any of the delusions that the rest of us have?

I think that all of us on a spiritual path have gained some enlightenment. But for me at least, I'm not done.

[LiberalElite]

8. I have numerous eons to go myself - i'm just starting nt

[Maraya1969]

11. Me too. There is a lot to learn with Buddhism. I just found a cool

site that starts from the four noble truths and explains things from there.

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/dhamma-lists/#foundations

If anyone knows where I can get a book with this type of simple explanation of being Buddhist I would really appreciate the information. There are so many books out there I don't know where to start.

[vlyons]

9. I don't know if the DL is completely enlightened or not

I've read many of his books, and I'm certain that he is way more enlightened than me. BTW: His book, "How to See Yourself the Way You Really Are" is the best, clearest description of "emptiness" (shunyata) that I've come across. Anyone interested in the Wisdom teachings about emptiness should get a copy.

[Maraya1969]

12. I just ordered the audio book! It has great reviews