I don't want to create any problems here. I have been attending a Kadampa Buddhist center

[Maraya1969]

and I happened on to some videos that express a division between the Kadampa tradition and other Buddhist views.

Is anyone familiar with this and if so can you offer some understanding so I do not feel like my Buddhist center is wrong or not welcome by other traditions?

I have read one thing in Geshe Kelsang's book, (I am #1 of his books) that has upset me. I don't really think what he says is that important because I can always choose to not accept that belief. But the fact that I find something that really disagrees with me is disturbing. I had thought I found a great place to learn how to practice Buddhism and now I am all confused and don't want to be one of those who complain and then leave their centers because of disagreements between the Kadampa tradition and other traditions.

This is the video that I watched that upset me and I cannot find a way to resolve it in my mind.

[Nitram]

1. If that observation that books in thee libarary are restricted...

....to those by Geshe Kelsang, then I would consider that cause for serious concern. The word "cult" comes to mind in a situation like that. I am always disappointed when a Buddhist teacher or student criticizes another teacher. Rather, they should be open to discussion, seek for the unifying truth at the root of the two views, and remember that duality is always an illusion.

[Maraya1969]

3. I am going to ask the Nun that runs our Buddhist center about the book thing.

I wonder if it is to raise money. I don't know where the money from the sale of these books go to but I don't really think it goes to Gelshe. Perhaps it goes to running the center. I was told he opened hundreds of them around the world. For that alone I am grateful.

[Nitram]

5. Couldn't you make more money with a wider selection of books?

[Maraya1969]

6. I was thinking that he may donate all his profits from the books to the centers.

[Nitram]

11. He could do that whether or not...

...other books were being sold there. It sounds to me like you are trying awfully hard to rationalize what is clearly a departure from Buddhist philosophy and practice.

[Maraya1969]

12. I asked someone at the center last night and she said he did donate all his profits

from the books. The center is not that big and Gelshe wrote a lot of books. They wouldn't even have room for other ones. And the woman also said that they like following one tradition just like Tibetans probably only follow Tibetan teachings even thought they all come from the same Buddha. No one ever says you can't read other people's books and I've talked about things I've learned from other sources a lot since I am very new to Buddhism and no one has a problem with it The woman also said that like other situations in life if we are to achieve true happiness or enlightenment we have to practice patience and non-judgmental thinking. This made a lot of sense since after I spoke with them I felt at peace again where before I had some uncomfortable feelings.

One thing that Geshla did that I am grateful for and I believe helps people a lot is create centers in 1500 different places around the world, (not sure of the number but I remember being shocked at how many he created). This has allowed people like me from a small place in SW Florida to have a center to go to. Before I found this center I just read books and didn't really learn all the wonderful things I have learned by just going to teachings at the center. Like last night the teaching was on how to not be lonely. She said that the way to do this was not to find people because we've all had the feeling of loneliness when in the presence of other people but to develop a caring heart for all people and to wish everyone else happiness and freedom from suffering. I learned this in a different class and have been practicing it just in my house and it really works. When you wish for happiness for other people you will feel happy and also not lonely.

[bananas]

2. 1998 article in Tricycle has some background

http://www.tricycle.com/two-sides-of-the-same-god

[TM99]

4. I can offer a simple answer only from my own personal experience.

Last edited Tue Jun 3, 2014, 08:30 AM - Edit history (1)

In Tibetan Buddhism, higher yogic tantra's are the most intensive and possibly the most transformative aspects of this branch of Mahayana Buddhism.

In the higher yogic tantra's one works with what I can only describe psychologically as 'archetypes' or 'god forms'. Some are beneficent and represent some of our most lauded human traits and conditions. Others are malefic and represent some of our most destructive and dark human traits and experiences.

Dorje Shugden is one such malefic entity, which is at the heart of the conflict within the Gelug-pa tradition between Geshe Kelsang and H.H. the Dalai Lama. Putting aside the religious politics and the rather egregious acts that both sides have perpetrated within the conflict, I ultimately agree with H.H. the Dalai Lama for these reasons.

Westerners are introduced to Tibetan Tantra far too easily. There are books, workshops, and courses now everywhere. The Lam Rim is a graduated, sometimes decades long, preparatory foundation to successfully work with Tantra. Westerners often receive empowerments from Lama's for various 'good' Buddha's. Truly, anyone can receive Green Tara, White Manjushri, Chenresig, Medicine Buddha, etc. Practicing these saddhana's (meditations) can bring mental calm, peace, tranquility, and allow anyone to tap into the 'healing' aspect of the mind (Medicine Buddha) or the 'peace bringing' aspect (Tara) or the 'compassionate' aspect (Chenresig) without needing a lot of preparation. You do not necessarily need the Lam Rim to receive and work with them though it does have deeper meaning and significance when you do.

But, it can be psychologically dangerous or at least very challenging to explore, without preparation, the more malefic Buddha's. Wrathful's like Yamantaka, Mahakala, Kurukulla, and Dorje Shugden require in my experience more psychic strength and understanding to work with.

Geshe Kelsang is a good teacher. He is a compassionate man. He may be right that the Gelug-pa tradition should not remove their protective wrathful Buddha, however, part of the Kadampa tradition is working with Dorje Shugden even before all Lam Rim preparations are complete. He is putting the ass before the cart so to speak. Westerner's in particular can then get cultish. Personality worship replaces a healthy guru relationship. Trying to deal with a wrathful deity and not just focusing on something simple and loving like Green Tara I think is a road-map for future problems. I have seen men and women with mental health issues experience some severe manifestations of mental illness when playing around with these mental tools. Many westerners turn to Buddhism as a means of counseling. Meditation can be a great adjunct when healing depression, anxiety, etc. But it is not the sole answer anymore than being 'born again' would be.

So, of course, you are an adult. Explore this on your own, just please be careful. I don't do a lot with Tibetan Buddhism these days because these types of issues can arise. I mediate and generally follow a very 'atheistic' and non-dogmatic Theravadan tradition because I really need to get away from all the dramas that seem to plague modern life.

[Maraya1969]

7. I looked up Dorje Shugden and remembered the statue in the Buddhist center of him

I also remember going through the prayers and being upset with what was said about him or to him or whatever you call it. But I asked our Nun Jenchang about it right after the prayers ended and she told me that he existed to help you get ride of poison thoughts and behaviors. Something like praying to know these thoughts and the pain they create - or rather he reminds you of the bad Karma that will happen if you do unkind things and such by creating pain in your life.

Anyway the way she explained it made me feel at peace with it. But I can tell you that when the prayers were going on I was very disturbed when it came to that part. I don't know anything about the other maleficent Budda's (I wonder why you call them Buddas?)

I also watched a video where Geshe Kelsang was asked if he was a Budda and he kind of said yes or maybe and that bothered me a little. He has done wonderful things I think by bringing Buddism to so many people. He has started well over 100 Buddhist centers and if it weren't for him I would not even be able to have a center to go to. The closest I came in the past was at the Unitarian Universalist Church when they had one man lead a meditation on night a week.

I really do not want to have any bad feelings towards this center or Buddhism in general. I want to be at peace with all of it. And I do remember listening to the Dali Lama say at a speech somewhere to not think your religion was any better than any other religion and that people come to enlightenment in many ways. And then he said something about cherishing your religion I think which is not a good thing.

[TM99]

8. In Tibetan Buddhism

all of those 'deities' are manifestations of Buddha. There are benefic and wrathful ones. The wrathful or malefics like Dorje Shugden are as Nun Jenchang said. They clear obstacles on the path to enlightenment. They teach us about our negative passions and shadows that hinder us and continue the suffering of ourselves and others.

I have not had any personal contact with Geshe Kelsang nor his group. I have read some of his books, and I did find them well-written. I do believe he does have compassion and wants to assist others along the Buddha's path.

I will say this. If you have any hesitations or feel 'disturbed' at all by anything that you are doing with that group, please leave. There is nothing in the Buddha's teachings that will, should, or have caused such feelings for those who choose to take up the challenge he put before us. I have been to numerous sanghas from a variety of traditions and done many empowerments and teachings for many decades now. I have never felt even once like any of the men and women who taught me were anything but honorable and honest. I always felt 'good' in their presence. I have never felt even once like any prayer, meditation, or practice did not sit well with me or was personally disturbing, and I have participated in several Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments that were certainly intense but never once disturbing.

Always trust yourself and how you feel when following any teaching, philosophy, spiritual path or religion. Always.

Good luck.

[Maraya1969]

9. Thank you. And I do thrust my teacher. I feel very safe around her and she has a beautiful

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

presence. The questions I have are in the writings and like I said she explained one of them to me already.

You may live in a large city and have more opportunity than I do to try different sects or teachings. I do believe the statement from The Course in Miracle, "You cannot be but at the right place at the right time."


Namaste'

[TM99]

10. Good.

Take care.

[rug]

13. The nearest temple to me is a Kadampa meditation center.

http://kadampanewyork.org/

It's about 20 miles away in Glen Spey, New York. As expected, the people there are very welcoming.



I didn't get into the lineages and history with them but the nun who showed us around described the numerous statues and shrines very explicitly as honoring gods and goddesses.

[Maraya1969]

14. What a beautiful place!