A Brief Encounter with a Christian Under the Stars

[NeoGreen]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/06/30/a-brief-encounter-with-a-christian-under-the-stars/

A Brief Encounter with a Christian Under the Stars
June 30, 2017 by Richard Wade

I spent last week participating in the annual Grand Canyon North Rim Star Party. Many amateur astronomers from several states bring their telescopes to the veranda of the Grand Canyon Lodge for eight nights of sharing free views of the universe with hundreds of visitors to the Park.

I brought a large, 20-inch aperture Newtonian telescope that requires an eight-foot ladder to see through the eyepiece, but gives magnificent views of globular clusters, nebulae, and galaxies.

Late one evening, when the lines of visitors waiting to see through the telescopes had diminished, a young man in his early twenties enjoyed the view through my telescope, and then, standing in the dark, he asked me in a hesitant way what effect seeing all these amazing things had on me. I immediately had an idea of what he was getting at because I’ve been asked this question at the eyepiece before, but I gently said, “I’m not sure what you mean.”

Gesturing at the star-crowded sky, he asked, “What does all this cause you to think in terms of the universe and creation?”

From both the words and the tone, this was clearly a question from a person who believes in God. The combination of his awkwardness and his earnestness made me feel sympathetic toward him, and so this is what I said as warmly and gently as I could. My words came fluidly, because I have been asked this question in various forms several times before:

Quote:

I see randomness operating for billions of years within the bounds of the laws of physics. I don’t see any evidence of consciousness, or a mindful plan, or a purpose. But make no mistake, I am also filled with awe and wonder. Some people assume that folks like me, who don’t believe that a deity is involved, see the world as a bleak, dreary, joyless place, because all the mystery has been spoiled by science answering our questions. On the contrary, every time science adds a new piece to the marginless, universal jigsaw puzzle, the three new sides of that piece pose new and intriguing questions for us. The more I learn about how things actually work, the more amazing it is to me.

There will always be awe and wonder, no matter how many answers science gives us, because awe and wonder are built into us. These things in the sky aren’t intrinsically awesome and wondrous by themselves; we are wired to react that way. We will always do that, and that in itself is amazing too.

I don’t think there is any purpose, or justice, or love built into the universe, but we can choose to add those to it by the purposeful, just, and loving way we live our lives.

Endquote:

The young man thanked me sincerely, and walked away. Later, I saw him sitting by himself gazing pensively up as the Milky Way silently passed its cloudy arch of billions of suns slowly across the night.

[PJMcK]

1. Your response was excellent

You articulated your views expressively and scientifically, NeoGreen, and I intend to adopt your tone when I find myself in a similar situation.

One aspect of fundamental faith that has always disturbed me is the belief that a creator made the universe for humans. When I look at the night sky and see the vastness of space and imagine all that it could contain, I'm amazed that people of faith would diminish their god, for example, by believing that the universe was created in six days as if by magic. If their god has the omnipotent power they believe, why would that god have a simplistic and limited method of creation? Why wouldn't such a god have a more fantastic, expansive and possibly unknowable technique and reasons for creation? That's a god with real power!

Your telescope sounds awesome and it must take a lot of work to transport and set up. Great viewing, I'm certain! I have an 8" Dobsonian 'scope and it's a heavy, awkward instrument that gives beautiful sights. It's a big piece of work, though!

[NeoGreen]

2. Oops, not my response, I cannot claim credit since I merely posted what...

...was highlighted in the Friendly Atheist website.

Sorry if I did not make that clear in my OP.

That being said, I would hope to be as articulate and gentle in tone if I found myself in such a conversation.

PS
My telescope is only a 6-inch Dobsonian, maybe someday I'll graduate to something bigger.

[PJMcK]

5. Oops, my mistake

I didn't read the link until I saw your response to me. My bad! Nonetheless, I appreciate the article.

Stay with your 6-incher. My 8-incher is too big to handle easily!

[Snarkoleptic]

3. Viva Entropy!

I particularly identified with this statement "...every time science adds a new piece to the marginless, universal jigsaw puzzle, the three new sides of that piece pose new and intriguing questions for us. The more I learn about how things actually work, the more amazing it is to me."

To thank an invisible sky wizard is to punt on some of the questions humanity would be far better off considering.

[Raster]

4. Wonderful post, thank you.

Beautiful response.

[neeksgeek]

6. Excellent!

My ex always refused to look through a telescope, preferring to "preserve the mystery" or something like that. She never agreed with my idea that knowledge increases my sense of wonder.

Anyway, "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." Amy Farrah Fowler (Mayim Bialik)

[raccoon]

7. Great post, this one's a keeper. nt

[LakeArenal]

8. It's also a mystery to me that god

Would stop with just one of those planets in the universe. Especially since believers think we are so sinful and imperfect.

[lark]

9. Beautiful answer.

Thank you for sharing this.

[Towlie]

10. I think of Genesis 1:16 and laugh.

Genesis 1:16 says "God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."

The unimaginably vast universe beyond our solar system doesn't even rate a full verse of its own! It's regarded sort of like sprinkles on an ice cream cone or tinsel on a Christmas tree — mere decoration for our night sky.

I don't blame our primitive, ignorant ancestors for that. In the absence of science their only alternative to admitting they didn't understand the world around them was to make shit up, and if you want to win respect from, and power over, other ignorant people, you won't get it by admitting that you share their ignorance.

But I do blame those who cling to those writings today because they no longer have that excuse. If you attempt to comprehend the size of the universe and understand that the biggest you can imagine is still too small, and then also embrace a belief that some sort of being created it all and requires our worship and obedience according to some arbitrary set of rules, then you have allowed your capacity for rational thinking to be severely compromised.

[gtar100]

11. You don't see evidence of consciousness, or see purpose or justice or love built in. And yet...

there they are in you and me. Wonder how they got there. To the extent that "I" exist, I can assure you it wasn't me who made them, not this one ego-centric life that is. It seems to me we are partaking in these things that have existed long before you or I got here. It's no different than saying the Earth is the center of the universe if we assume such complex things as consciousness, purpose, justice, or love exist only here. Randomness reminds me of the million monkey theory only far more monkeys and not just the works of Shakespeare. You don't have to believe in a God of a human religion to seriously consider that forces in the universe figured out how to create life, purpose, consciousness, justice, and love long before the Earth was around and that there is a drive or purpose to manifest these things here and elsewhere. Maybe it was randomness that somehow brought these concepts into being in the absolute beginning but it's difficult for me to believe that even the current theory of the age of this universe is enough time for that. Who knows. What a great mystery.

[stopbush]

14. And yet your post is written from the perspective of a god botherer.

Everyone has an opinion. Many hold conceits.

[gtar100]

15. I don't know what you mean by "god botherer".

?

[stopbush]

17. Here ya go:

God botherer (plural God botherers)

(Britain, slang, pejorative) A person who persistently promotes religious beliefs to others, even when unwelcome.
(Australia, New Zealand, slang, pejorative) A religious preacher who visits homes to promote his or her beliefs.
(Britain, slang, pejorative) An excessively pious person.
(Britain, military slang) A military chaplain.

[gtar100]

18. Wow, that's quite a leap. And a pejorative - lucky me! How did you get there from my post?

For the record, I am not Christian nor am I a follower of any particular religion. As much as I've tried, it's been futile to stick labels on people except maybe temporarily since the sticky side seems to always wear out. But feel free to keep trying. I am not defined by you except in your own mind.

Nor am I agnostic or athiest. This post popped up on the du, maybe in the most recent posts, and it struck my interest. I'll pay closer attention to the group designation in the future.

[stopbush]

19. From this:

"You don't have to believe in a God of a human religion to seriously consider that forces in the universe figured out how to create life, purpose, consciousness, justice, and love long before the Earth was around and that there is a drive or purpose to manifest these things here and elsewhere."

Forces in the universe figured out? Long before earth was around?

That's the exact same appeal to the divine/supernatural as creator that you'd hear in the worst fundamentalist church.

You may not be a religious person, but the views you express abive show how deeply you have been influenced by religious thought.

[gtar100]

20. Thou doth leapeth to conclusions...eth.

By my highly refined use of ye old English you can see I am indeed influenced by religious thought. And cosmology, and mythology, and psychology, and history and modern culture and walks in the woods and talks around the dinner table and... on and on. You chose a religious perspective but not just any religious perspective, a fundamentalist one of the worst kind! Why... because of the words "figured out"? I beg to differ. But how can I argue against a strawman that I would agree with! I see why you chose your pejorative as you did.

[Brainstormy]

12. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing. n/t

[Canoe52]

13. Aww crap, my screen went blurry

musta got something in my eye...

[Jakes Progress]

16. I do my outreach with an 11 inch SCT.

With groups of boy scouts from rural areas often in attendance I frequently get a question or two in that vein, usually when I have stated that the light from Andromeda Galaxy left there two and a half million years ago and just arrived here. The question usually takes the form of how that can be when the universe is not that old.

I usually refer to the 16th century monk, Giordano Bruno mentioned in the recent version of Cosmos. For those that prefer faith, it is a way to open up from fundamentalism and absolutism. Bruno posited that neither the earth nor the sun were the center of the universe - the views of the "enlightened" scholars of the time. His argument was that "god is limitless and unbounded, so why shouldn’t the universe be? 'Your god is too small!' he cries to those who brand him a heretic."

I don't feel the need to proselytize either faith or atheism. But when I argue that it wouldn't be consistent with faith to put limits on something that you say is without limits. In these situations, my role is that of helping people come to know and understand the physical universe, not debate theology.