debating a christian - little help

[jogi1969]

Hello

I have been lurking on DU for a while;
I come here to read posts and learn.

I have a group of friends who I go bowling with on Saturday, nominally we just talk BS about our game but a new group member started bringing up religion. At first it started with innocuous bible verses, which was easy enough to ignore but when I was asked directly do I believe I stated I am an atheist.
So the person is taken aback - DILLIGAF - and I enjoyed the game, but like a good christian he kept quoting bible verses and telling me that god 'loves' me and asking why would I reject it. So I asked what about the millions of children who will be raped/sold into sexual slavery/abused by the time we go home. His response was to tell me about some inspirational person who gives motivational speeches to churches - a woman who was sexually abused by her father for a decade and how she was able to overcome that terrible life and now - this is good - is a millionaire and that is proof that god can bring something good out of horror. Which I responded with god didn't do shit while she was getting raped; and he wont do shit about what will happen by the time we wake up tomorrow.

At this point he asks me what do I have to lose - Pascals wager - so to shut him down I said "I do not accept Jesus as my personal savior and I deny the holy ghost" which stopped the proselytizing.

Yesterday someone from the group stopped by and wanted to hang out so after we smoked a blunt he starts in on the religion angle, he asks me why did I say that I rejected the holy ghost as that puts me in danger. So I tell him a little story;

Lets say that I am driving and I get carjacked - the guy puts a gun to my head and tells me to drive, the first homeless person I see the gunman tells me to give the homeless person all of the cash I have - which I do because I don't want to get shot. The gunman then tells me to go to a ATM and withdraw all of my money even my savings and we drive around and I give every homeless person I see one half of the money until it is all gone. The gunman then takes me to a deserted road and jumps out leaving me alone and broke.

I ask did I do a good thing?
he says yes.
but I did it under duress did I not?
he says yes
So I did not have a choice right?
he again agrees

That's when I ask how is that different than telling me that I am putting my soul in danger?
IF I accept Jesus THEN I get eternal life and all the boring shit that comes with it
IF I DO NOT accept Jesus THEN I get punished.

Same principal - either do what the gunman (Jesus) says or get shot(go to hell) how is that a choice?
he responds that Jesus is not a gunman and he loves me. He went on to give me testimony about his 'personal relationship' with Jesus and how much he suffered for me - this lasted about 30 minuets.
After he stopped talking I again pointed out that when I die that is the choice - either accept Jesus and the doctrine of Christianity OR punishment for eternity - which is not a choice at all like the gunman analogy.

He then states that just by me saying there is a choice after death is amounts to me tacitly saying that god exists.
After I stopped laughing I pointed out that when I say god-damn I am not referring to any deity, just like when I say oh shit I am not referring to actual shit.

So in order to get the point across I changed it from Jesus to a unicorn - if a unicorn threatened me with eternal punishment OR believe in unicorns that is still not a choice.
His response was to repeat that it is a choice, I am choosing to not believe.
I said a choice made under the threat of eternal punishment takes away choice.

I tried for over 2 hours to get the point across but we went round and round with the gunman analogy.

Unless I miss my guess I'm gonna hear it on Saturday from this guy and the bible thumper, any ideas on what to expect and how to counter their arguments?

[Warpy]

1. Debating the faithful is not going to get you anywhere

because the rules are completely different. Faith is unreasonable, illogical, and incapable of proof. You're trying to use logic to counter a totally illogical system. In addition, you are threatening to take a binkie away from a two year old. The outcome of that is never going to be good because that binkie is what helps him cope with a world he suspects is both hostile and impersonal.

My best advice is to walk away from this one.

ETA: The riddle of Epicurus is a good parting shot complete with a reminder that the devil Christians use to square an all-good god with evil in the world could function only with the permission of that all good god.

[Mr.Bill]

2. I agree. The way I feel about people like this is

it's a good thing we have freedom of religion in this country because some people really need it. I'm just looking for some freedom from religion. Freedom from religion is something we pretty much have, but it is a right that must be guarded and fought for. There are those who would force their religion on us in the form of mandatory prayer in schools, etc., if we let them.

[awoke_in_2003]

24. Yep

Start talking religion and I leave the room.

[SCantiGOP]

3. I used to be an atheist

But I got tired of arguing so I became an agnostic. That way, people just think you are too intellectually lazy to have an opinion and they leave you alone.

[packman]

4. Two quotes -

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” - Mark Twain

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Those type of people crave attention-and, sadly, need it. You will, never-never-never change his mind and somehow, deep down, he is deriving some pleasure (wrestling with your demon) from it.

[BooBrown]

16. Agree

It's a mistake to get into a jesus argument with True Believers. Nothing you say will open their minds. You just end up exhausted and frustrated.

So instead of playing by their rules, here's a couple comebacks that have served me well.

1. If someone asks if you are superstitious (AKA christian), just smile and say "Why do you ask?" And then ignore them.

2. If someone tries to engage you in christian conversation, just smile and say "How about that?" And then ignore them.

Just because some idiot asks you a question or tries to convert you doesn't mean you have to answer them or listen to them. That just encourages them. But smiling while nicely telling them to fuck off, confuses them.

So walk away. Let it go like water off a duck's back.

You need some new friends.

[awoke_in_2003]

25. Or say "no pun intended"

Then, when they are trying desperately to figure out what pun, walk away.

[Freelancer]

5. Ask them if their God is capable of creating a human being that doesn't believe in him.

Last edited Tue Mar 1, 2016, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

"Well, yes," They'll probably say. Well, (point to yourself) "Here I am."

You've made plain your revulsion with religion. Make it clear to them that the revulsion you experience isn't voluntary -- that religion activates your mental gag reflex, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to swallow it, (or for you to receive it through any other orifice, for that matter). It's NOT a choice. It's NOT your choice. It is a FACT of your being. So, either, from one point of view, you were made this way by God, in which case anyone trying to convert you is at odds with God's design of you, or you represent a psychological mutation that makes you averse/immune to religion, and they are rejecting the basis of the theory of evolution... or both.

[Duppers]

6. What Warpy said.

Don't waste your time and energy. They're impossible.

[Major Nikon]

7. Just tell them Pascal's Wager works equally well with devil worship

For all they know they picked the wrong imaginary friend.

[Curmudgeoness]

8. I have to agree with others who say don't even bother.

When you are having a discussion with someone who is open-minded, it is worth your time. But these people are not open-minded and will just frustrate you.

Yes, you will probably continue to hear from them about this, but I suggest that you just shut it down by telling them that you have no desire to hear anything more about religion, or god, or Jesus. And if they continue, just ignore them, walk away, whatever it takes. But don't respond. I could suggest that you ask them why they don't worship Isis or Odin or any other gods, but they will not understand the ridiculousness of their argument....since their god is the only true god and that is the end of the story.

If all else fails, join an atheist bowling team.

[mr blur]

11. I must agree with Curmudgeoness.

You'll be wasting your time. These people don't want to discuss anything, they simply want to prop up their own delusions by insisting that you must think like them.

You've tried reason and logic - if that worked then they'd all be atheists already.

The minute you engage in this conversation with them you are lending credibility to their view of the universe. Which is OK if you could accomplish anything but you can't. Really, you can't. We've all tried. If you want to try to discuss belief with people who will ignore all reason and logic and insist that they know something you don't, well you can do it here in parts of DU - without ruining your bowling.

[Curmudgeoness]

15. Not to mention that these people are now on a mission.

Saving souls is a full time job.

[DetlefK]

9. God loves you, Jesus loves you... Ask him what "love" actually means.

Isn't the definition of love something like "giving and not expecting something in return"?

[jogi1969]

10. Thank you for the advice

I will let you know what/if anything happens next

[Promethean]

12. You have probably already done everything you can for them.

Most believers aren't going to be convinced in a series of conversations. However have hope. Some of the big name atheist speakers who do televised debates and such speak of a interesting phenomenon. They get contacted by people who saw one of their speeches/debates from years earlier. The person says they weren't convinced by the atheist speaker at all at first. Now though they have completely given up religion and they recognize it was the first exposure back then to the different idea that started the proverbial ball rolling.

The best thing you can at this point is to draw a line. I will not discuss religion anymore unless you bring me simple verifiable evidence. This should not be a tall order or unreasonable requirement. They likely claim that their god has acted in our world and still does today. All they have to do is point to one such occurrence and have no better explanation. It should be easy for them.

[Heddi]

13. Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing...very rambly

I guess this will come across as dismissive but The whole "they said and then I said and then they said" is just tedious. Maybe because I know what they said because it's what "they" always say to us. It's always the same questions.

If these people are your friends, and they continue to harass you about your atheism, then you can either 1) keep arguing with them, knowing you have as much of a chance of them changing their minds as they have of getting you to change yours 2) tell them to lay the fuck off, you're an adult, or 3) stop hanging out with them.

It's really that simple.

We have one life that we get to spend on this planet -- why spend so much time and energy around people who obviously don't respect you for who you are and the choices you have made in your life.

Imagine you're gay (and you may well be -- that's not the point) and your bowling buddies every day tell you about how much your life is lacking because you don't like vagina, and how awesome your life would be if you just got vagina in it. And then your other buddy says that how can you be sure you really don't like vagina, have you ever really given it a chance...

I call that bigotry. Just because it's sexual vs religious doesn't make it any different in my book.

So keep arguing with them, which is pointless, or find some people that will respect your views.

That's kind of the only advice really to be had.

[Goblinmonger]

14. If you enjoy hanging out with these people,

then just say "Hey, let's not talk about the religion thing. I like you guys and neither of us is going to convert the other so let's just talk about other things." And then continue to hang out with them.

If you don't enjoy hanging out with these people, "Bye, Felicia."

[lindysalsagal]

17. Tell the jerk to go help people who need it, like jesus said.

Tell him he's indulging in ego-massaging by trying to wear you down. That's not jesus' work. Tell him you might be convinced if he v olunteered at the prison, homeless shelter, soup kitchen, orphanage.

Bullying you isn't the goal for a true believer and you're not gonna hear anymore of his lectures.

[Buzz cook]

18. Probably best to come to an acccord

with your friends and just not talk about it.

If you want to learn about debating xtians then you could do worse than watching "the Atheist Experience" on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCprs0DXUS-refN1i8FkQkdg

Binge watch or search for specific topics. Matt Dillahunty the host has several formal debates on youtube that pretty much cover the basics.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCry4eIS1_98ZxFO0geP7xJw

Most of the arguments are variations on defining god into existence. Challenge their premises make them define their terms clearly. That covers most of the ground.

Just avoid hubris and you should be fine.

[scubasteve76]

19. If you want to win the argument

Figure out what it is you believe in, why it's good, and focus on that, rather than trying to disprove what they believe in. Otherwise, it becomes an argument about your struggle with Christianity. And there shouldn't be a struggle because I'm assuming that isn't your thing.

[A HERETIC I AM]

20. I've used this many times in the past;

I simply ask, What is more important? The moral or the story?

The moral 'Success comes to the prepared' is a perfectly sound, rational and wise moral. However, the tale (or fable) from which it comes is CLEARLY not believable. Is it more important to understand and agree with or accept that success comes to the prepared, or is it more important to actually believe that three little pigs actually built houses and a big, bad wolf physically huffed and puffed and blew two of the 3 houses down?

The morals that are allegedly taught by Jesus (and are NOT unique or new to Christianity, BTW) are perfectly fine and well worth paying attention to; Do unto others, Love thy neighbor as thyself, Love thy enemies, etc. But to expect me to believe the rest of what is essentially a 2000 + year old set of iron-age, middle eastern myths centered around an ancient Hebrew desert war god and his alleged son stretches credulity to the breaking point for me.

If your religion makes you a better person - if it makes you kinder, more caring, more charitable, more loving, more understanding and compassionate to your fellow man, then I am ALL FOR IT. Unfortunately, for many millions of their followers, the 3 faiths of the god of Abraham and Isaac do little more than teach their faithful new and improved ways to HATE their fellow man, and I want nothing to do with such bullshit.

And finally, your point about the ride in the car with the carjacker is perfect. I simply say "Jesus loves you, but if you don't love him back he will hurt you forever."

[OriginalGeek]

21. I'd probably just start wearing my more offensive

metal band t-shirts to bowling.

I generally wear band shirts most of the time. I have many that are not offensive and/or secretly offensive but nobody can tell unless you really know the band (and the bands I listen to are a pretty tiny minority of overall metal bands) so I usually wear those when I'm in polite company. Polite company, to me, is the general public and people who may or may not be offended by my music but they have the decency to not proselytize to me so I don't go out of my way to fuck with them.

But once I've been polite about telling them no-thanks and they persist in preaching, they get the Goatwhore and Acheron and Nunslaughter and Aeon and Entombed and Dying Fetus shirts that specifically call out xtianity in vulgar ways. I usually reserve those shirts for concerts of other bands where everyone is cool with it but persistent preachers can have a taste.

SO I won't wear my "FUCK YOUR GOD" shirt to the grocery store but I'll happily wear it to a religious ambush. Or an Impaled Nazarene concert.

[cleanhippie]

22. Lol. i once attended a Red Cross CPR class where one participant showed up wearing a red shirt

with white letters that looked like what you see on a coca-cola can. Except it read "Jesus, Eternally Refreshing".
in both breaks before lunch he took any opportunity to proselytize to anyone he could corner. During the lunch break I went home and put on my Darwin Fish (looks like the jesus fish with feet on it) T-shirt and sat right next to him when class convened. I then proceeded to ask him to be my partner every time we needed to practice on the dummies. He never said a word to me or anyone else after lunch.

[OriginalGeek]

23. Lol, I need one of those shirts

I'm happy to report that I see a fair amount of Darwin fish on cars around here. Not nearly as many as Jeebus fish but more than I would have expected. I always take care to let them in traffic or change lanes if they need to. Lots of FSM stickers too.

[progressoid]

26. I was surprised to see a car with a Darwin fish on it recently.

Surprised, because it was in a small town that has a Dutch Reformed college and is 90% republican. I actually slowed down to make sure I hadn't been seeing things!