I figured it was safer to reply here in A&A

[Binkie The Clown]

Re: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026566366

"Pray for Nepal"

I have to ask, are we expected to pray to the same god who created earthquakes in the first place? And if god didn't want people to die in earthquakes then why did he create them?

I would rather something be done for those poor people that is actually useful and constructive. They need food, clothing, shelter, medical aid. They don't need empty words mumbled to a magical sky daddy.

[PeaceNikki]

1. I bit my tongue on that, too.

#Dosomethingmeaningfulfornepal

[bvf]

2. The whole concept of prayer

lets people buy into an illusion that they're actually doing something useful. It sickens me whenever I see this sort of crap. All it accomplishes is the furtherance of hive mentality, and does no one any good.

Do something practical, instead of patting yourself on the back for sending pleas to your delusion.

[Rob H.]

3. Useless feel good-ism

It lets people think they're doing something helpful while actually doing literally the least they can do.

[Auggie]

4. +1,000,000

[Doctor_J]

41. And rec bait

For some, recs, not discussion, are the purpose of du

[Lordquinton]

5. #takeadeepbreath

"7. God works in mysterious ways. It is not for us to know, or question."

I have a lot of questions, actually.

[AlbertCat]

55. God works in mysterious ways.

If you eliminate god.... the mysterious ways just disappear.

[truebrit71]

70. I am hoping that was sarcasm..

...but i'm pretty sure it wasn't...

[Lordquinton]

80. It's hard to tell sometimes

but given the context I don't think it is.

[beam me up scottie]

6. I had the same thought.

Today there was a local story about Holly Bobo, a nursing student who went missing a few years ago. She was kidnapped, raped and killed. It was horrible. A ginseng hunter finally found the body last year; he said in an interview that he knew God put him there to find her.

I was like if God can put a person there to find her, why didn't he put a person there to stop her being kidnapped, raped and murdered?

I dunno, if I was God I'd never let things like that happen to beautiful young nursing students at all.

[PassingFair]

7. They believe they have magical powers ...

of intercession.

Plain and simple.
It must confer some sense of power and/or control.

[Binkie The Clown]

14. The fact that really amazes me is...

They believe that god has a "divine plan" and that everything happens according to that plan. But then, "wait, hey god, I want you alter that divine eternal plan for my benefit, because, after all, my football team winning is more important than your eternal divine plan for the whole universe."

Or equally stupid: "Thank god for saving me from the tornado that killed my next door neighbor." Well, if you're going to thank god for your safety then you damn well better blame god for your neighbor's death. If your god is all powerful, the you can't have one without the other.

[Novara]

8. Hoo boy, I'm glad to find this group

Didn't know it was here!

"Pray for...." Man, I hate that. So, the god who caused the tragedy is suddenly going to turn around and help now? Yeah, no. These people never understand that their "god" they're praying to for help CAUSED THE TRAGEDY. You can't have one without the other if you believe. Hello??

Another thing that bugs me? Singing "God Bless America" in the 7th inning stretch at baseball games. The president ending all speeches with "God Bless the United States." Sports figures who pray on the field. Do you really think your god wants the other team to lose? And don't even get me STARTED on "religious conscience." What a crock of shit.

(Sorry for the rant. I guess I needed to get that off my chest.)

[Thespian2]

9. Not a problem here...

Rant on if you are being truthful to yourself...I agree with your rant...

[beam me up scottie]

10. Welcome welcome welcome Novara!

Your rant is welcome here and so are you.

We really need to advertise more...

I love your posts on womens' issues, this group is FULL of radical feminists.

There are a lot of in jokes so if you're wondering about something, don't be offended, just ask a local evil atheist for clarification.

[Curmudgeoness]

27. Welcome to A&A.

Glad you found us. We rant all the time....it is expected.

And in case you didn't know, this is a "Christian Nation", which is why we do all this religious shit in inappropriate places and situations. Get with the program.

[mountain grammy]

64. Welcome. That's why we're all here.

[Novara]

65. You guys are the cool kids.

[mountain grammy]

66. I tend to agree.

[wryter2000]

11. One presumes the people praying are also helping

An Episcopal bishop asked about the first tsunami said, "The earthquake was caused by plate tectonics. The spirit of God can be seen in the people who've come to help."

Now, I don't expect any rational discourse from the sort of atheist who refers to "magical sky daddy." So this will be my last word on the subject.

[beam me up scottie]

15. You know the op came in here to get away from people like you.

I hope your snotty reply doesn't stop anyone from posting in a group that was created so they could feel safe from self-righteous nannies who can't stop themselves from scolding others because they have opinions about magical sky daddy gods.

So this will be my last word on the subject.

Make it so.

[Binkie The Clown]

16. "rational discourse" about

the nature, powers, abilities, temperament, inclinations, desires and wishes of the magical sky daddy god? Of course. Discourse away. What is it about god that makes "him" god if he can't/won't care about people's lives?

"One presumes the people praying are also helping" I believe your presumption may be incorrect. I know many "religious" people who pray instead of helping, figuring that by doing so they have soothed their conscience and/or fulfilled their obligation.

[bvf]

17. "One presumes the people praying are also helping"

Presume away.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Oh, you have wandered down the wrong dark alley, my friend.

That bs you just spewed is how liars take credit for other peoples good works. 'god is moving them' or god is in them', etc.

It's theft. It's a LIE. peddle that lying bullshit someplace else.

[Iggo]

24. Are also helping FOR REAL, you mean?

Unlike praying (which is the same as doing nothing)?

And why would one presume that?

[bvf]

31. Obviously it makes one feel as if one

has contributed, instead of just sucking air.

The bishop's observation is either the zenith of idiocy or just plain evil. I can't make up my mind on that, but I lean toward just plain evil.

[Curmudgeoness]

30. This is a safe haven for atheists and agnostics.

Don't come and take a dump here.

Your humble apology is accepted.

[mr blur]

35. Well one is wrong.

I suggest you read our SOP and then take your drivel to to the Prayer group, where it belongs.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

39. Only in a believer's world

is the assumption of the existence of a non-existence gawd considered "rational discourse". Since belief in a supernatural deity is inherently irrational, the irony is blinding.

[skepticscott]

46. In other words, god only causes good shit

and the bad shit just happens by accident, because "god" was too fucking lazy to prevent it.

Got it

[LostOne4Ever]

59. I don't expect any rational discoursse

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]From people who expect nonbelievers to refer deities in the same terms as believers in a room designed specifically for nonbelievers.

Sorry, but from our point of view they are "magical sky daddies" or "magical sky fairies" as far as we are concerned and I see no reason why we should use an euphemism for that when talking to other people who have the exact same view. [/font]

[Novara]

12. Thanks for the welcomes

I don't really know if I'm an agnostic or an atheist - some days I'm one and some days I'm the other. I do know that organized religion has fucked up way too much in the world. And I can't look at the pain and destruction and hate and despair in the world and think some magical being is in charge, causing all that.

We're all just imperfect humans, man. Good and bad. And sometimes both.

What really bothers me is the drift towards theocracy here in this country. With the SCOTUS' blessing! What the hell ever happened to the separation of church and state??

[beam me up scottie]

18. I'm an agnostic atheist.

Agnostic atheists don't believe in gods.

A gnostic atheist believes there are no gods.


I agree about SCOTUS, if we don't get another Democrat in the White House this time around we're sunk.

[mr blur]

36. Well, remember that the Blessed Hillary's favourite book

is the Wholly Babble. Or so she claims.

[beam me up scottie]

56. They all have to say that.

Remember how Obama had to pander to the christians because...closet muslims.

I would love to see Bernie Sanders tell them all to shove their stupid flag pins and bibles and get down to debating actual issues.

Being a native of the Green Mountain state I love Bernie, but I don't think he could win. It would be refreshing to see him enter the race just to shake things up.

[Stryst]

25. The seperation of church and state?

Not when six members of the supreme court are conservative Catholics who think that their beliefs trump everyone else.

[NeoGreen]

37. Welcome aboard...

... enjoy your stay.

I have often posted the following in an attempt to help clarify definitions:


It's not "Gospel", but I find it is generally accepted as a helpful diagram.

NG

[Novara]

38. That IS helpful, thanks!

It appears that I'm an agnostic atheist.

[elleng]

13. 'Pray' or not,

its NATURE.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Prayer doesnt do shit.

The only thing that does ANYTHING, is putting materials, dollars, and *people* in motion to help. That actually does something. Everything else is hot air.

I exempt 'sharing' it from the hot air category, because if even if only one out of ten people who sees it actually donates or makes a material contribution, then sharing was material aid as well.

People who sit on their hands and pray can fuck themselves if they think they are actually helping and that's all they do. They can doublefuck themselves if they tell everyone how hard they are praying. Highly obnoxious.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. It is "uplifting", in the case of an earthquake, and a "warm embrace" for volcanoes.

Besides Authentic Religious People don't believe in that sort of nonsense, so stop, you zealoted atheisty anti-theist neo-dawkinite. STP SUPPRESSING THE SILENT MAJORITY!

[riqster]

22. "Prayer: your little way of telling God His plan is wrong."

I am neither an A nor an A, but I too find the notion that hitting one's knees to pray is somehow being "helpful" to be quite ridiculous.

Better to get off the knees and DO something. Good OP.

[Major Nikon]

23. Prayer: The next worst thing to doing nothing

[Warren Stupidity]

26. In a study of the effectiveness of prayer there was a slight negative outcome correlation

for sick people who knew they were being prayed for. Probably not significant enough to be concerned about, but it just might be that in some cases praying for people is worse than doing nothing.

[Major Nikon]

28. I suppose there's something to be said about the negative impact of false hope

[Warren Stupidity]

29. The Templeton Foundation, not liking the results from their study,

were not particularly eager to get to the bottom of why this would happen.

[Novara]

33. I'm sure they weren't.

But I suspect it has to do with expectations, and those who thought there was some magical being interceding on their behalf but weren't getting better were negatively affected when they realized that not even "god" was helping them. In other words, when reality clashed with superstition.

[skepticscott]

47. Oh, but we'll always have the usual suspects over in Religion

mouthing the vapid platitude that "prayer is as much for the one praying as the one being prayed for", implicitly acknowledging that there ain't no one listening as well as that self-delusion is a preferred method of mental health treatment.

[Novara]

49. "Sending good thoughts and vibes" has the same psychological benefit, I'll bet

And I'll bet no one has studied it. But it's the action of wishing something positive for someone else that produces the benefit in the wishee, not the damn prayer. Or vibes, or good thoughts, or whaterverthehell form it takes. It's the action of wishing something positive for another. Tell them that.

[skepticscott]

51. Yeah, I never understood the "good vibes" request

from people who don't subscribe to the idea of "god" or who are trying to cater to their friends who don't. If you, somehow, actually believe that there's a god out there who listens to and answers prayers, offering or requesting prayers makes sense and would appear to someone in that mental state of actually having a chance of working. But if you don't, or think someone else doesn't, how you think that "good vibes" (whatever the fuck those even are) are to be transmitted to any effect is quite a mystery.

[Novara]

53. It's no different than praying

And it makes agnostics feel like they're doing something, just like prayer!

Actually, I have said it to someone when I think it would comfort them. But I think something like "you're in my thoughts" is better. It's all the same thing. It's comforting to think that people are thinking about your and cares that you're going through something tough. Makes it so you don't feel alone in your troubles. There's no magic.

[skepticscott]

54. Certainly if the person being "vibed" to

knows that other people are thinking of them and supporting them, that can be a psychological boost. No argument there. But that's not always the case, and I've even seen people request good vibes for their dogs and cats, so not sure what the benefit is there.

[Major Nikon]

50. "prayer is as much for the one praying as the one being prayed for"

I don't dispute this at all. Both are equally effective.

[skepticscott]

52. If it were voiced with the explicit acknowledgement

by the person saying it, that they know it doesn't REALLY work, then it would make sense (though still being an attaboy for self-delusion). But if it is used as apologetics and to deflect criticism of the obvious ineffectiveness of prayer in getting what you pray for, as it pretty much always is, then it's just vapid nonsense.

[Rhiannon12866]

32. I'm certainly hoping that the US sends aid, experts and equipment

When I caught the breaking news, my heart sank. My grandmother visited Nepal back in the '70s and that country has to be one of the poorest in the world.

[mr blur]

34. WTF!?

7. God works in mysterious ways. It is not for us to know, or question.

Humanity is doomed.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

40. Couldn't help myself...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026566366#post14

[mr blur]

42. How come this overtly-religious OP was allowed in GD?

What happened to the usual "This belongs in Religion" locking post?

[Rob H.]

43. Maybe all 30 hosts have been offline the entire time

Hey, it could happen!

[Heddi]

44. No no no, you have it wrong. Posts CRITICAL of religion aren't allowed in GD. Positive Religion

posts aren't only allowed to stay, they often have hosts of GD actively participating in them, if not starting them outright!

duh.

[mr blur]

45. Oh, right. Sorry. I forgot about religious privilege,

and foolishly expected a "progressive" board to be....well, progressive.

[bvar22]

48. ALso, if you DO pray,

you'll have to pray in Hindu or Buddhist,
cause that is the language their god understands.

[LostOne4Ever]

57. I get that they mean it as a platitude of sympathy

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]and I see nothing wrong with that.

But as a nonbeliever I agree with you upon the implication of such sentiments.

Why pray to a god who would allow something like that to happen? Would a deity actually change their universal plans just because of petitions by people?

Further, I also agree that if people really want to help donating money and time instead of/in addition to prayer will unquestionably provide real, definite, and tangible benefits.

Of course, real serious people can't understand considering the implications of something and consider such conversations as attacks. Even in the A&A room we can't have a discussion on this without someone getting their feathers all ruffled as can be seen above in this thread.[/font]

[Leontius]

58. So what have you done?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

60. What have YOU done?

Pray, maybe?

[beam me up scottie]

61. Oh, look, it's the compassionate christian who called atheists "childish pricks"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=14743

Here to show us more of that famous christian behaviour?

[skepticscott]

62. Yes, why the fuck he's still here is a mystery

He's lucky this isn't the Interfaith Group...they block people there just for being present, not even for coming in and dropping stuff like this.

[beam me up scottie]

63. It's just a layover on his way to Heaven.

GO LEONTIUS, GO!!!

[truebrit71]

69. Yup...some get blocked after one post..

...mighty, mighty tolerant...

[Rob H.]

73. They'll even threaten to block people based at least in part

on things that weren't even posted in there, and then wonder why it's been a digital ghost town from pretty early on. That's baffling, all right.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. I'm baited by his mere presence. nt.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. I interrupted a long-anticipated family vacation

to spend a morning reviewing the incoming news, and sending money to Mercy Corps, because they seemed to be in a good position to actually distribute relief. Took some digging to select a charity group that was in place and available.

Then I discussed with my kid what an earthquake is, why they happen, and what to do in case of.
We also talked a bit about the importance of helping other people we will never see or meet in person.

[nil desperandum]

68. sent money to

an organization that is helping kids...

Instead of praying to a delusion you could ask people to send money as well since money is a resource that can be used to provide actual relief items...there are several options, here's a link to some help if you're interested:

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-25/how-help-nepal-7-vetted-charities-doing-relief-work-following-earthquake

[skepticscott]

71. Better yet, don't wait for a media-highlighted disaster

when you know there will be a huge outpouring of support regardless, either because people are made to feel guilty, or it's the only time some people think about others in need.

There are plenty of charities that need support every day, but the need they're responding to doesn't generate a big media splash or a lot of internet buzz, so their donations come in dribs and drabs, by comparison. But lives are lives.

[nil desperandum]

74. Excellent Point

I should have clarified, but I meant to point out that as these disasters arise an effective outcome can be aided by actual monetary resources as opposed to doing nothing but mouthing some words to an imaginary being...

I did not mean to imply I never donated any other time.

Thank you for clarifying.

[skepticscott]

75. I certainly didn't mean that there's anything WRONG

with sending money in a case like this, only that these aren't always the causes that need it the most, despite getting the most buzz.

It is a fact that people die from unanswered needs every day, far more than die in earthquakes or other high profile disasters. It angers me sometimes that the media decides whose lives are more worthy of potentially life-saving attention based on the ratings that can be generated by covering one situation more than another.

[nil desperandum]

76. No worries

I didn't take it as you were chastising me in any way, shape or form. I think your point was spot on that instead of prayer we should always be trying to provide resources to the best of our abilities to those who need them. I also took your point to mean that good people donate money or time regardless of whether or not a disaster has taken place and that those same good people will do more when a larger emergency need arises to the best of their ability rather than offer platitudes to their god which are of little resource value to those facing starvation or disease along with homelessness after a disaster.

Thank you for an enjoyable discourse.

[Goblinmonger]

72. Are you here for legitimate dicussion?

Because, if you are, you are welcome.

If you are here to drop a turd in the punch bowl and then leave, as it appears you are since you have not responded further, we really don't appreciate people that dislike us dropping lumps of shit in our punch. I hope you can understand that. We have to throw the punch away and that's kind of wasteful.

As a host, I have no desire to block you for this post. I just want to make sure we understand each other and what this group is for and what it isn't for. Unlike some of your buddies that are hosts, I (we) aren't going to knee-jerk block you because we can't stand your presence. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are here for the purpose of discussion until it becomes abundantly clear that you are not and then, only after having a private discussion with you, would we consider blocking you. And that process would take some time as the three of us have lives and we need to have a significant email discussion before making a decision that drastic. So if this was some attempt to come in here and get blocked so that you can show the knee-jerk hosts I am referring to that we are the same, or to show your buddies that you are willing to take a bullet for them in order to "show us," I'm sorry to disappoint you. We host this room like rational adults. Others' mileage may vary.

Again, if you are here for legitimate discussion--welcome. As for me and my answer to your question, at a point in time when my household income has been cut by 60% for over the past year with little prospect of turning around in the near future and while we still have two children in college, I am sending all the money I can to a charity that seems to have the least amount of overhead and the best possibility of getting help to those that need it. If I was in a place to physically go help, I would. I am also feeling horrible for those people, but that--much like offering up prayers--is more about me and my psychological well being and has little to do with them.

Again assuming you are here for discussion, what have you done beyond offering prayers? Do you know of any other ways that we could help other than money, because I would be interesting in knowing those options.

[Rob H.]

79. I'm guessing, based on the sentiment expressed

in this post, the answer to your question is a resounding "No."

[Novara]

78. Wasn't there some discussion that atheists donate differently to charity than christians?

Were's an article: Atheists More Motivated by Compassion than the Faithful. It talks of what drives the motivation to help.

<snip>

Atheists and agnostics are more driven by compassion to help others than are highly religious people, a new study finds.

That doesn't mean highly religious people don't give, according to the research to be published in the July 2012 issue of the journal Social Psychological and Personality Science. But compassion seems to drive religious people's charitable feelings less than it other groups.

"Overall, we find that for less religious people, the strength of their emotional connection to another person is critical to whether they will help that person or not," study co-author and University of California, Berkeley social psychologist Robb Willer said in a statement. "The more religious, on the other hand, may ground their generosity less in emotion, and more in other factors such as doctrine, a communal identity, or reputational concerns."

Willer's co-author Laura Saslow, now a postdoctoral scholar at the University of California, San Francisco, became interested in the question of what motivates charity after a non-religious friend lamented that he donated money to earthquake recovery in Haiti only after seeing a heart-touching video of a woman being pulled from rubble, not because of a logical understanding that help was needed.

"I was interested to find that this experience – an atheist being strongly influenced by his emotions to show generosity to strangers – was replicated in three large, systematic studies," Saslow said in a statement.

In the first study, Saslow and her colleagues analyzed data from a national survey of more than 1,300 American adults taken in 2004. They found that compassionate attitudes were linked with how many generous behaviors a person was likely to report. But this link was strongest in people who were atheists or only slightly religious, compared with people who were more strongly religious. [8 Ways Religion Impacts Your Life]
In a second experiment, 101 adults were shown either a neutral video or an emotional video about children in poverty. They were then given 10 fake dollars and told they could give as much as they liked to a stranger. Those who were less religious gave more when they saw the emotional video first.

"The compassion-inducing video had a big effect on their generosity," Willer said. "But it did not significantly change the generosity of more religious participants."

Finally, a sample of more than 200 college students reported their current level of compassion and then played economic games in which they were given money to share or withhold from a stranger. Those who were the least religious but most momentarily compassionate shared the most.

<snip>