Christianity, poverty, and socialism or communism.

[Tobin S.]

A good friend of mine just completed his master's degree in theology. He let me read his thesis. The theme was a Christian perspective on socialism. The gist of the paper was that for socialism to work well it needs to be married with Christianity. It's a lot more complicated than that, the paper was 65 pages, and involves theories on false consciousness and liberation contemplation, but that's the general vibe. It's not really a new idea, he just goes into the topic much more in depth than you'll hear ordinarily. I think the first major iteration of Christian socialists and communists in America occurred in the 1930s. It resurfaced again in the 60s with the hippies. Socialism and communism are often associated with atheism since Marx appeared to be an atheist, and that influence carried over into communist countries. I think my friend sees that as a major flaw in left wing ideology.

I've been reading Thomas Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation. Merton thought of Christ's teaching as communist. He doesn't say a whole lot about it in the book, but he doesn't mince words about what he does say. He also thought that to truly live in a spiritual way then one should know something of poverty from first-hand experience. He said that wealth beyond our basic needs of food, clothing, and shelter and what it took to obtain those things was detrimental to spiritual life. He was a promoter of that old camel through the eye of a needle metaphor.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Actually, goes back to our founding...

Socialism as we know it now is a modern invention, but some of its concepts are old. Puritans, Quakers, Baptists and others over the years may have had various oddball theologies and practices, but all believed in the concept of the commons and that the community was supreme over the individual.

Even our Constitution speaks of "the people" in common and aims for the common good.

Was Jesus as communist? You hear that a lot because he was big on giving it all away and screwing the rich. However, he was living in the Roman Empire and had a very different view of things back then. His preaching about wealth sounds a lot like the way we talk about prosperity gospel types and the Koch Brothers.

[standingtall]

2. Socialism pre dates Carl Marx

There was John Francis Bray author of labor wrong and and labour's remedy 1809-1897 who Karl Marx quoted. There were Christian socialist such as Fredrick Maurice Denison 1805-1872 who authored the Kingdom of Christ. The 1st annual Christian socialist fellowship was held in Louisville in 1906. There was Paul Roberson's father William Drew Roberson 1844-1918 who was a former slave and a pastor of a Presbyterian Church. Also cannot forget about Francis Bellamy 1855-1931 who was a Christian socialist preacher who wrote our pledge of allegiance.

Karl Marx is not the father of socialism nor is socialism foreign to Christianity.

[Tobin S.]

3. I think, like TB noted above, it's a very old idea.

But we don't really see it as a political force organizing countries until Marx comes around with his critiques of modern capitalism. Marx lived from 1818 to 1883, btw.

But people living in a collectivist way appears to actually pre-date civilization. It might be our most natural state of being.

[standingtall]

4. Was there a really a realistic pathway for socialism as a political force

before then? For most of the worlds history governments were run by kings and dictators there was no established capitalist government. Or at least there was a very short window between the worlds first established capitalism and Karl Marx. To be clear I did not mean to imply that every example I gave predated Marx the only one that did for sure was John Francis Bray although Marx was only 9 years younger Bray was an established name before Marx, but all the examples I gave did predate the 1930's.

[Tobin S.]

5. I'm talking larger scale stuff like social movements in the OP.

We had some somewhat popular socialists before the Great Depression, Eugene Debs being one, but the political movement that gave us real left wing political reform came with the Great Depression, and then later in the social upheavals of the 60s. Both eras had religious overtones.

You know, I think we're due for something like that again. With these kids getting involved now days and left wing politics starting to come back into popularity, I hope we see some similar reforms in the near future.

[guillaumeb]

6. Recommended.

Speaking of Marx, my view is that the leaders of Russia and China used Marxism as a means to power.

As to wealth, the prosperity Gospel is much in favor among the very rich, and those who hope one day to be very rich.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

7. You might also try

Merton's Conjectures of a Guilty Bystanders for more on Merton's political views. And much of his critiques of American culture still stand up fifty years later.

[Tobin S.]

9. Thanks. I'll check it out.

Merton is a treasure. I really enjoy his stuff. I hear he died kind of young in an accident, but he left us with some wonderful literature.

[Liberal Insights]

8. Early attempts at Christian Socialism

In 1908, the Federal Council of Churches was just getting organized, and one of its first priorities was to proclaim it "Social Creed", i.e.

"We deem it the duty of all Christian people to concern themselves directly with certain practical industrial problems. To us it seems that the churches must stand —

For equal rights and complete justice for all men in all stations of life.
For the right of all men to the opportunity for self-maintenance, a right ever to be wisely and strongly safeguarded against encroachments of every kind.
For the right of workers to some protection against the hardships often resulting from the swift crises of industrial change.
For the principle of conciliation and arbitration in industrial dissensions.
For the protection of the worker from dangerous machinery, occupational disease, injuries and mortality.
For the abolition of child labor.
For such regulation of the conditions of toil for women as shall safeguard the physical and moral health of the community.
For the suppression of the "sweating system."
For the gradual and reasonable reduction of the hours of labor to the lowest practicable point, and for that degree of leisure for all which is a condition of the highest human life.
For a release from employment one day in seven.
For a living wage as a minimum in every industry, and for the highest wage that each industry can afford.
For the most equitable division of the products of industry that can ultimately be devised.
For suitable provision for the old age of the workers and for those incapacitated by injury.
For the abatement of poverty.

To the toilers of America and to those who by organized effort are seeking to lift the crushing burdens of the poor, and to reduce the hardships and uphold the dignity of labor, this Council sends the greeting of human brotherhood and the pledge of sympathy and of help in a cause which belongs to all who follow Christ."

I've published a whole page on this very important historical event at http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/socialcreed .