Thriving

[OneGrassRoot]

I just read this Abraham message:


You have to find a way to be all right with thriving because you are always going to want to thrive. The economy is moving forward in response to the desires of people. And depriving yourself of something does not make more money for someone else to spend. If there were not people who were purchasing things, then all of the people who are working at manufacturing and marketing them would have to find some other ways of making their living. There are so many people who innately want to thrive, who as soon as they begin thriving a little, begin imposing all of these exterior judgements about how much thriving is appropriate, "It's appropriate to thrive that much, but not that much." And you have to ask yourself, "At what point do I lose the balance of thriving?"

--- Abraham (2003)


This is a subject which nags at me more and more. I've frequently posted in GD topics pertaining to wealth inequality and our priorities, personally and collectively. I'm one who feels there, somehow, should be limits placed on wealth accumulation while so many people suffer in poverty.

On one hand, I am mindful of trying not to approach anything from a place of lack or negativity; on the other hand, I can't -- and won't -- choose to ignore the suffering of others since our current shared reality is one of significant inequality and injustice.

Rather than be immersed in the negativity of it all (which, to me, gets us nowhere, fast), I try to raise the topic for discussion by focusing on priorities. I come from a place of acknowledging the gross inequality, and suffering it causes, then work to create/set new priorities and work to manifest those.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2357807

That is very difficult to balance sometimes, however. It's hard not to come from a place of "lack" when we fear basic resources to survive, like food and water, won't be available to everyone because they're being hoarded.

I have the perhaps Pollyanna belief that nothing in our current reality must remain. I believe that once something shifts, there can be incredible developments by visionaries to remove all of these fears concerning resources. We will then see that we can create new ways of doing everything...including how we survive and thrive through brand new discoveries regarding energy and sustainable methods for everything and everyone.

Yet, we are where we are as far as a collective reality at present.

With regard to Abraham's statement above -- while I recognize and appreciate the whole Law of Attraction aspect to this viewpoint -- I do feel it's important to look at the big picture and balance our "thriving" with the collective reality.

Perhaps so long as our "thriving" truly lifts others and manifests the Law of Attraction principles for more and more people as we go, that's cool.

But the examples in my DU link above are very selfish, greedy thriving, in my opinion. I realize we have to focus on ourselves first and foremost to raise the vibration or be of service or however you choose to view it from a spiritual perspective. Yet I also think it's very easy to keep telling ourselves that and then it becomes simply selfish and greedy.

And, for those who are thriving, how they choose to "lift" others is very subjective. Bill Gates and other gazillionaires often lift others via their philanthropy, yet -- to me -- I don't believe their giving is truly selfless. It's often only done via their own charitable trusts which provide tremendous tax/financial benefits for them.

Still, that's not to say they shouldn't do SOMETHING, or that what they do isn't of service and benefit to those who suffer.

This is a gray area for me that I ponder frequently, and wonder how others view and approach this subject?

[mntleo2]

1. I struggle with this too OGR

It has taken me years to understand my dislike of wealth.

First I wondered if it was envy. But it was not, it is a kind of anger/pity.

Then I wondered if somehow I was mentally sick and rejecting wealth and the wealthy. Everyone else seemed to think it should be something to strive for. No for most of my adult life I honestly could care less for anything more than having enough food and shelter.

Then I wondered if my own poverty just made me too suspicious. Yes it does as I have learned the most generous of all the classes are the ones who have the least, *not* the ones who have the most who hoard WAY more than they need. This somewhat explained my anger because it is frustrating to watch someone with far more than they need sit by while someone they profess to "love" suffer in need when all they sit on is what they DON'T need.

As a person raised within Christianity, I got conflicting messages from my faith. One was that, "God loves you more" if you are rich and that poverty was a kind of punishment for being sinful. The other was that poverty was a kind of noble way to live, that it was a "choice" you made. Neither IMO is true.

I am still disdainful of wealth and have allowed this to take root in my heart. Anyone who sits on way more than they need is indeed full of fear and this is sad and VERY angering for me to watch because of the suffering one person's fear brings to the thousands around this fearful person.

It is true that I cannot always "consider the lilies of the field who neither toil nor reap yet they are fabulously clothed and beautiful to behold with plenty from the sun, rain and earth..." (reference to Jesus telling us to just trust God to provide) ...which well, She doesn't always do. I have to ask, "What about all the "lilies" who don't get enough of these, or the seeds that have died for want of these? So while I am willing to accept "God's will", no I am not gonna lay down and just live from day to day willy-nilly, I am gonna work hard and plan and prepare some things, so I can lay away "for the winter".

Still I have to say OGR, that this is not something I do lightly and I still question it. I will say that I am proud of all I have learned from my suffering in poverty in a way that shows I will always share what I have, especially if what I have is what they need, I will do without with as cheerful a heart as I can, and make sure that I am glad for all I have.

My 2 cents

Cat in Seattle

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Your 2 cents are always priceless, Cat...

I feel as you do, Cat. I've never been one to crave material things, though "freedom" -- freedom from worry and from having to put so much energy into daily survival -- is something I do call forth.

I also believe hoarding -- by anyone, wealthy or impoverished -- is based in fear. Shoot, I think most actions humans engage in now are based in fear. It is my sincere hope that we, as a species, can awaken to Choose Love, not fear.

I'm not one to accept "God's will" very easily, either; not in the face of suffering, whether my own or others'. Sometimes I can, but usually I'm spurred to act in whatever way I can, reminding myself along the way to Choose Love.

Not always easy.

Sometimes it manifests in the form of righteous anger and disgust.

For me, my anger is truly directed toward the system (though obviously we humans create and perpetuate systems).

I struggle within about how to contribute to changing our systems to ones based in love, not fear. I lean toward shaming people sometimes...lol.

I posted this here because, as we've discussed previously, there is a lot of talk within spiritual circles about how there's nothing wrong with money or wealth, and that limiting the accumulation of the same is a negative.

I don't think there's anything wrong with money or wealth, either. I don't have a knee-jerk reaction as I once did to money (though I do hope we move beyond our current systems of currency, income, etc.).

It's the greed and fearful hoarding of ANYTHING that I find troublesome. I think I'd react more favorably to those who have yachts and planes and multiple homes around the world if they would just say, "Yeah, I'm greedy and selfish." It's when they try to defend it that gets me; to me, extraordinary, garish wealth in the face of widespread poverty is indefensible.

And I think people -- even those who claim to be spiritual -- can easily become greedy and fearful yet cloak it in lofty, loving "law of attraction" and similar verbiage.

I've been surprised by how many people who claim to be progressive are appalled by my suggestion that wealth be limited. They don't want it to be limited in any way, just make sure the wealthy "pay their fair share."

Well, I do believe it should be limited. How...I don't know, but I believe it should. I'm not entirely clear how my spiritual beliefs and moral compass play in with that, quite frankly.

[magical thyme]

6. at what point does preparation or saving become hoarding?

I 'hoard' food, so to speak. Meaning, I lay in a good supply ahead of winter in normal times, and have laid in an extra large supply in recent months. This is due weather, which can be unexpectedly brutal here in Maine, and now due to the economic crisis and due to the craziness around Iran. If I were on the west coast, I'd lay in a supply in the event of 'the big one' cutting off street access.

If a supply chain disruption hits, there is a best a couple days supply of food at the supermarkets. What would you live on? Would you depend on FEMA? Charity? And if you depend on charity, who do you think will have food to give away other than those who laid in a supply?

And if I don't have work for a period of time, at least I won't be worried about food for me and my critters for several months.

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Good question...

and that's the gist of the conversation I'd like to have.

I know I can approach it from the other end of the spectrum more easily. The examples I gave in the link in the OP...billionaires with planes, yachts, multiple homes.

That is selfishness and greed. The accumulation of so many resources (money and power) in the hands of a few is causing unnecessary suffering around the world.

Maybe we can work our way down from there to identify what we each feel is okay and not okay given the gross inequality we face which causes suffering.

Preparing and stocking up -- for various reasons -- is simply common sense, imho.

At what point does it impact many others? I don't know. But I don't think the example of regular people stocking up on basic supplies is an example of hoarding that causes others to suffer.

I guess defining hoarding, and the hoarding of what -- and accumulation and accumulation of what -- would be helpful in such a discussion.

[mntleo2]

11. To me this is *not* hoarding ...

...hoarding is when you keep WAY more than what you need. This is different for every person in most cases. However there comes a time when you have far too much. The Waltons have too much ~ and they are never satisfied with too much, indeed they cause horrendous suffering in order to sit on all they have and make even more for themselves to sit upon. THIS is too much.

And there are differences. A person with 6 kids needs more than someone who has none. A disabled person may need more than a person who is not. A person who shelters kitties may need more than the one who does not, etc. However I am noticing I know when I have too much, my heart tells me so. If I have 2 coffee pots (saving one for the time the other one breaks and I can't afford to replace it), and someone I know does not have one, my heart tells me to give the better one away. After all it is sitting on my shelf gathering dust while my neighbor has none. In that case I am "considering the lilies of the field" trusting that, when the time comes my coffee pot breaks, something else will have come along. It usually does. As a matter of fact I cannot think of a time when I did not have one when I needed it after I gave something like that away.

Also I listen to my friend Bapu Gi, a Hindu priest, who taught me a long time ago the REAL meaning of the Christian "Loaves and Fishes" story. He helped the group of many faiths I was in, to perform the same miracle. In case you don't know it, it is a story where Jesus had a huge crowd of people and had only 5 loaves of bread and 3 fishes to share among the thousands that were there. When he shared it, it just "grew" until after everyone ate their fill, and then there was 12 baskets left over. Really this is not a miracle, it is what happens when you share with love. I cannot tell you how many times Bapu Gi's message worked! Like feeding three hungry teenage boys and their friends while I am looking at sharing a dinner with four pork chops and some salad. Oh sure, I do "throw in another potato" and open a can, but I can tell you these boys should not have pushed themselves away from the table full, yet they always did. With leftovers (that they gobbled for a midnight snack later, or I took to work for lunch, lol).

Bottom line is our hearts know when we have too much. Hoarding is a sickness of fear that encourages the illusion we don't have enough when we do. The suffering it causes not only within the greedy person, but in the world, has GOT to be a karma I would never want to live. I bet when a friend with one of the same critters you have says they are out of whatever their critter needs and cannot afford to replace it, you would share with them. If you do this with love, you can bet your own critters (and you) will also have enough.

My 2 cents,

Cat

[BlueToTheBone]

14. If you never eat the food

then that's hoarding. If you eat the food and it sustains you and yours through the time period, that is preparation...JMHO

[mntleo2]

20. Personally, I do feel there is something wrong with wealth

...but then I was raised where there was a distinct line between the haves and have-nots. My parents were blue collar class and the people around us were so poor, we were the "haves". I did not realize any of this until I was older. A strange unity among ALL of us about those in our community who were "rich" they were distanced from the rest of us with suspicion. I remember my childhood friends covertly making fun of them for their greed.

My religion did not help either where greed is considered quite a deadly sin. I still agree with that. Greed damages so many millions, it is killing our planet, it is what causes so much war and sadness. Yet the greedy refuse to see the damage they do and still the damaged aspire to be like them, even using God to justify this greed. This I truly cannot understand when it is so obvious to me as to the horrible consequences of greed. It angers me to use God or "the Universe" or Whomever as some sort of "reason" to believe that you should have more than anyone else.

Excuse me if I have told this story before but it is always a good one to revisit when it comes to thriving and what it means.

I used to have a very wealthy friend (heir to the Red Lion Inn fortune) who was good for all he had learned to be, but in the end, I could not stand the obsession with making money nor the ignorance about those in poverty. He did not realize he was keeping me around as a sort of curiosity, a person to be kind to so he could sort of assuage his own guilt at having so much ~ and this was during the "greed is good" times in the 1990s when being proud of having money was a "virtue". It was about politics I thought when I gave up on him, of course he was a Republican. But in truth it was from him I began to realize the danger of thinking you know it all when you have it all was so hurtful to so many. Worse I could see that this was a practiced ignorance, deliberate blindness. There was little anyone, including me who wanted to love him for who he was, could do to take off the blinders.

One time during a conversation about the stock market and all its glory, I kind of surprised myself with an insight I did not know I had. I said, "You know, all you people are doing is shuffling virtual papers around in the ether. If our society suddenly did not value that, it would be worth what is is ...nothing, just air. Like diamonds which we know there are more of than the common crystal, if suddenly everyone decided they were just rocks, that is all they would be. All your riches would be worthless because right now you are rich because others just think you are rich"

A look of pure horror came over his face and then as quickly he dismissed it as absurd. Nobody would ever do that, it could never happen. But for a VERY interesting moment I was privy to that terror, that gnawing fear, and to be honest, it was pretty sad to witness about a nice man quite comfortable with far more than he needed already.

And while I know I also had that fear for a far better reason than his, it was still ugly to know it was inside me too after I saw it in him. Right then I realized, I did not want to be that way and what little of that fear I had, I had to get rid of it if I could. It has not been easy and therefore "considering the lilies of the field" is not an easy thing to do, nor is it always wise thing to do, one just has to know their limits and needs, and when simply enough is enough.

My 2 cents

Cat in Seattle

[OneGrassRoot]

21. This should be an op-ed.

Thank you for sharing the story about your "greed is good" friend. I don't recall reading that before.

You DID have quite the insight back then, and I'm glad you said it out loud. There's something very, very powerful about what you said. "All your riches would be worthless because right now you are rich because others just think you are rich."

And this: "...one just has to know their limits and needs, and when simply enough is enough."

One of my most persistent pet peeves is that so many people aren't honest with themselves...about quite a few things. They lie to themselves to justify their level of "enough." We humans lie to ourselves quite a bit, in my experience.

[FirstLight]

2. so much to say

bookmarking to come back when i have had more coffee

[magical thyme]

3. I struggle with the inequities

it will, ultimately, sort itself out I suppose.

My views have changed over time and right now seem to be regressing to envy, not of fabulous wealth, but of the security of having enough and not fearing losing it all. When I had enough I didn't fear losing it; losing it was a huge shock to my system. Now I can't trust the system or trust the 'process.'

Most days I'm able to feel the gratitude of a roof over my head, enough heat for the moment, and a full freezer and larder.

Then something breaks and I know panic. The other day my water stopped. Replacing the well pump cost me $1800 5 years ago, so I was in a panic. It wasn't the well pump, thank goddess, but it was a reminder how close I remain to going under.

And I remember a few years ago when had what I needed for most any day-to-day emergency and so wish I could find my way to that place again...

[OneGrassRoot]

5. The two words that come to mind all the time...

when faced with my own struggles, or struggles like you describe here regarding your fear about the well pump, or any of the myriad other stories we hear from friends or read about online, are:


IT'S UNNECESSARY


Of course, survival struggles are a matter of perspective. We know that. As you said here, most of the time you are able to feel gratitude for a roof over your head, heat, food.

And we KNOW there are many struggling in this world in a more profound way...no shelter, no food, poor health.

We know that, so long as we have our health, the other struggles are secondary.

We know these things.

Still...the extraordinary stress so many people feel on a daily basis as we try to survive WITHIN THIS SYSTEM (that's key), seems completely unnecessary to me.

Not when there are those with so many resources. They have their own challenges and struggles, no doubt. And I do believe even those of us who, seemingly, have little could even help them with their challenges and struggles.

It's the coming together of the various puzzle pieces...balancing this shit out...that feels of utmost importance now.

How to work toward that and maintain inner peace and balance -- and not get consumed in anger and frustration -- is what I find most difficult.

But it's the push-back from others -- progressives and spiritual types -- about my belief that wealth should be limited (at least until our collective reality isn't one of lack) -- that I find disconcerting and makes me question my views and my feelings about it all, 'cause I'm always open to seeing things another way.

[Celebration]

7. Hoarding

Or saving for retirement, a rainy day, etc.?

I wouldn't want to be a burden to my children in my old age.............

[OneGrassRoot]

9. See my reply #6.

The definitions and examples of each may be important in order to have a meaningful discussion.

[Celebration]

10. yes, I am not in favor of conspicuous consumption

I would rather people save their money rather than flaunt it, if they have it.

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Do you personally...

feel there should be a limit on how much money one can save, even if they don't flaunt it? Or do you feel there shouldn't be any superimposed limit or judgment?

I value your opinion, that's why I ask. There are quite a few people I know and respect who don't feel anyone's wealth should be limited in any way. Even if the wealthy didn't "earn" it per se and instead inherited it. Their only concern is that the wealthy pay more taxes; they aren't concerned with how much wealth one accumulates.

[Celebration]

23. eh, no, I don't really think there should be imposed limits on wealth

But it would be great if every gazillionairre would adopt the same attitudes toward money as Warren Buffett.

The challenge is to create a culture where money does not equal status and power, where people with wealth were judged simply by their generosity and good will, and where money did not give people a sense of entitlement.

[OneGrassRoot]

24. That would be a much more perfect world indeed.

In my perfect world, there wouldn't BE garishly wealth, as they would choose to share their fortune to the point they themselves no longer have money or other forms of material wealth to any great degree.

There probably wouldn't even be money as we know it now.

I don't want a world where everyone is the same. Even with equal opportunity (which we really don't have), the outcomes will be different because we're all different. We have different tastes, different interests, different aptitudes and work ethics.

It's the gross inequality that gets to me.

[BlueToTheBone]

13. I've thought about this and acted many ways

and I think that thrive is more than money.

When I was about 25, I took vows of poverty, owned 2 sets of clothes and lived on the kindness of others. I lived in a ISKCON temple at the time. (I only stayed for a year because of the male dominance)

After I left. I didn't have much money although I always worked "hard." I earned a college degree with the help of the Carter admin's year of the woman's education help. I was lucky, I fit right into the program guidelines.

I made a medium salary (women are always paid less than men for the same job) and supported myself. I had shopping addictions because I was pretty unhappy with my life. My career field was very male oriented and I fought all the same battles women everywhere face.

The month I paid off the balance of my student loan (10 years later) I quit my career field because it was not fulfilling and I was definitely not thriving. At a loss as what to do, I went to visit my old dear friend we both laughingly called my "fairy godmother" and during and through this visit, I met the man I've been with for 26 years, started a business, owned property and have thrived both spiritually and physically.

I have always felt an incredible gratitude and wonder for everything that comes into my life. Always wondering if I deserve it and thinking I should give more. Lately I have seen how I turn the goodness away with a murmur, oh no, not me!. I have vowed that I will say yes to goodness more and more.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. Absolutely...thriving, "wealth"...

all of these words pertain to much more than money or even material things.

Self-worth and gratitude are a huge part of it all. Saying yes and not feeling guilty is one part of the process of moving away from "lack," as I see it.

I agree.

The Abraham message which prompted my post seemed to very specifically pertain to material goods...perhaps vacations and other luxuries (vacations are luxuries for many of us).

Hence me posting this, wondering if others feel discussion of limiting material wealth and resources is of interest.

As I mentioned upthread, I'm not one to put a huge energetic focus on lack or negativity. I prefer to create fertile ground for visionary, evolutionary ideas to take hold and for us to move forward with positive action.

Yet I balance that with the collective reality which currently IS for so many. A reality of struggle.

And frequently wonder how to "balance this shit out" as we work toward visionary, evolutionary leaps forward.

Hope you're well, BTTB!

[Why Syzygy]

16. I really don't know..

but have heard some interesting tidbits lately. Such as: there is no such thing as "money". Never was never will be. It's a consensual construct to transfer meaning from human labor into an abstract. This is very clear when we consider the Federal Reserve Bank and the hoax of a system we have now. They pass out pieces of colored paper. Or amass digital zeros. The criminal part is that they are not paying the true laborers; the true wealth. They exploit other beings.

So there's that.

Also, the word 'current' and 'currency' come from the same root. They both mean 'flow'. 'Currency' wasn't even applied to 'money' until fairly recently in history.

I don't have any conclusions about all this. Honestly, I am learning to dowse and plan to locate paper and metals that have monetary value. I am not worried in the least about finding too much! If a balance needs to be struck, I have a half a century of poverty or borderline poverty to make up for

[OneGrassRoot]

17. LOL!

"I am not worried in the least about finding too much! If a balance needs to be struck, I have a half a century of poverty or borderline poverty to make up for."

I hear you!

[mntleo2]

18. Amen to THAT, LOL!

...Me too I have had the same. However I have given up on having too much. I am just glad I have enough. And it seems it is always enough to share.

Ain't life grand?

Love,

Cat in Seattle

[bigmonkey]

19. I'm not antagonistic to the idea that a person can have too much.

Isn't too much, by definition, more than enough? What could enough be? One thing I think could be a simple definition is if you have investments that bring in the median income. Isn't that enough, that you can live like an average person, and not work, except to manage your investments? Might something like that work?

I'm not very attached to the definition, but I wonder if it might be a useful one. Certainly in my own life that would seem like enough.

[OneGrassRoot]

22. Perhaps...

I don't know, either.

One approach I like is limiting income, like limiting the CEO and executive pay to no more than x times (something like 10 to 15 rather than the current average 400) the salary of the least paid person in a company.

Of course, then investments (as you say) are an issue, as stock options come into the picture to perpetuate the inequality.

I honestly don't see why we need the stock market at all. People can find less harmful ways to play.

[Why Syzygy]

25. Something else..

I don't think income should be limited. I DO think the rules of engagement need to be completely redone (with no one an effective slave).

I was reminded of interviews I've heard during the past year. Two different men on two different shows were talking about economic security. They are both wealthy; and both have an attitude of 'me first'. They are not at all idealistic. They take care of 'me and mine' and to hell w/ the rest. They say, this is the way things are (economy); how can I make the most money from this? They aren't trying to change the system/world. They've figured out the game and choose to be heavy hitters.

So there's that.

[OneGrassRoot]

26. Most of the 1%'ers (though not all, imho)...

are like that. Plenty more who aspire to be part of the 1% have that attitude.

Me, not we.

The Common Good? Heresy, to them.

Certainly the system needs to change, yet I wonder if part of changing the system is setting limits on greed?

May I ask why you don't feel income should be limited? (You're opinion about that is the majority opinion, without a doubt, btw; I've never asked someone who is progressive, rather than conservative, why they feel income shouldn't be limited.)

Maybe others will chime in explaining why they feel that as well.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, but since there is such gross inequality, with so many aspiring to greed, this discussion is necessary, imho.

[Why Syzygy]

27. Limiting income

seems un-democratic to me. OTOH, for one thing, we need to go back to treating corporations as they were in the beginning. Far from being granted person-hood status, they had to renew their charter every five years. And in order to renew, they had to show that their company was "in the public interest". Stuff like that. We don't need to limit citizens. We need to limit and regulate business.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. Thank you :)

I definitely agree about regulating business. Thanks for your thoughts about limiting income of individuals.

I'm trying to have an open mind and see it differently, but the only thing that feels okay to me in this regard is to have that ratio approach: no CEO or executive can make x times more than employee median pay, or x times more than the lowest paid employee.

It encourages everyone to prosper and be invested.

But then there's that whole stock option thing and how wealth is manipulated. I say get rid of all hedge fund, speculative/manipulative aspects altogether.

And the Paris Hilton's of the world who didn't "earn" their money.

It's complicated, for sure.

Thanks again for the reply.

[Why Syzygy]

29. I think I misread

your income concept. I took it to mean total accumulated wealth. If you're talking about income inequity and CEO compensation, I say, "YES"! The set up now is part of the systemic failure. Often those positions are given in order to pay a promised bribe. It's a stinking waste pile, OGR. But again, it won't solve the issue. Clever, corrupt white men have no intention of living in harmony with 'us'.

[OneGrassRoot]

30. Yep, you're right, of course.

(BTW, I left out a word above. I wasn't advocating getting rid of the Paris Hiltons of the world in any nefarious way...lol)