I was a devout Catholic child

[orthoclad]

I actually experienced an epiphany very young, while chanting Latin and filling my mind with devotion. My internal dialog stopped. I lost personal boundaries and felt the communion. Much like Buddhist chanting and meditation.

I had a discussion on evolution with a priest, my position being "why couldn't God act on the world in this way through evolution". He told me to read Silent Spring, a major influence in my life.

I later tried to join the altar boys, mostly for tips and stealing wine. My parents immediately yanked me out. To this day I wonder why. What did they know?

The nuns were mostly deeply damaged people who needed to retreat to the convent. I still suffer damage from their hands.

I mentally left the Church in 8th grade when a priest at the pulpit told us we couldn't love Mankind as a whole so we had to love our fellow Americans and support the Vietnam War.

I never decided to be an atheist. I just woke up one morning absolutely convinced there is no afterlife. Now I deeply believe that the only thing that counts is how we treat each other in life.

I don't believe in faith. I believe evidence. I've never seen a soul. I've seen many poor, sick and hungry people. Like Stevie Wonder said, when you believe in things you don't understand, you suffer. Anything not supported by evidence is superstition or speculation.

I see the bonds of community and neighborhood that belonging to a church can instill. I see the spirituality of losing one's ego in the face of immensity. I see the kindness which can be practiced. I see the good works of the Catholic Worker movement and the Berrigan brothers and the many people who took seriously the command to love. I appreciate the Nature-love of some pagans. (I regard the Abrahamic religions as pagan.)

I won't argue religion with anyone. We'll all find out the truth, even in the negative sense of oblivion. I suspect we simply can't conceive or perceive the truth via the limitations of our nervous systems. I speculate that death can be a liberation.

I see the greed, abuse, and lust for power which organized, hierarchic religion perpetrates. The misery of billions can be traced to the abuse of faith by the conpeople. There is great evil in churches and institutions.

There is a place in my life for humility and good works. But not for what we in the West generally call "religion", in the sense of propitiating supernatural beings with sacrifices.

I don't believe in faith.

[Duncanpup]

1. You touched me with your powerful post.

[orthoclad]

3. The discussion of the Bible

in another thread distilled my thinking.

Thanks.

[cilla4progress]

2. I'm going to be watching

for your posts!

Thank you orthoclad. Brilliant and insightful!

[Irish_Dem]

4. It sounds like you don't believe in organized religion.

I feel the same way.

But it sounds like you have a personal faith or spiritual system.
Belief in the goodness of humans.
In their good works.
Nature love.
Death may be a release.

A belief system which helps you understand the world and your place in it.

[orthoclad]

8. I have suspicions, but not faith,

and some evidence: the experience of epiphany (twice, once in adult life). I realize the epiphanies may have been just brain chemistry from extreme concentration.

I think it's self-evident that our nervous system is limited. Just try to picture the 11 dimensions that physicists toss around, the "many worlds" theory, or even just observable relativistic effects. There's more to things than meet the eye.

We try to make the inexplicable explicable, but in the face of immensity and a "neutral-dangerous" world, it makes sense to take care of each other and our life support system. Evolution has wired us to cooperate and be social. Lets exercise that muscle.

[Irish_Dem]

14. Yes the epiphanies could have been a meditative state.

People have worked on having those since time began.

I don't really have a problem with people inventing a spiritual delusional system
if it is healthy, good, beneficial and makes them better people. Gives them
calm, a sense of right and wrong, makes them cooperate and leave the planet in
better shape than when they arrived.

It is when it becomes destructive to self and others that it is a problem.

I myself have made my own belief system. Whether it is true or not, it gives me
comfort, support and moral core.

Yes what we know of reality is limited. That is why we have to do the best we
can to make sense of things and find our way.

[old as dirt]

17. Bohemian Gravity A Capella Science

Just try to picture the 11 dimensions that physicists toss around

Richard P. Feynman: The Relation of Mathematics to Physics

"I love only nature, and I hate mathematicians" - Richard Feynman

[orthoclad]

18. It amazed me that

you could wire a handful of resistors, capacitors and coils and physically embody fairly fancy equations.
The relationship between math and nature is interesting.
My take? Nature is math, and by math here I mean the underlying processes, not the numbers and symbols we use to describe them.

I'll watch the Feynman thing when I have some time. I tend to avoid all things Google. But Feynman's interesting in himself. Thanks!

[ragemage]

5. Thank you for the post

Thanks for the post, it does bring back some memories, good and bad, of growing up catholic.
I went through 12 years of catholic school, elementary thru high school. Did the altar boy thing, and was a lector for church. Luckily all the priests that I was around were just alcoholics. Except for the priest in 8th grade who was banging the eighth grade teacher. Somewhat of an open secret.
Totally agree about the nuns. Most of them were horrible humans and definitely had emotional and developmental issues. I hated them but came to pity them, their lives were miserable shells of humanity.
I am mostly agnostic, still hope something is after we shuffle off this mortal coil, not religiously but something "next level". Integrate our energies into something cool (ok I have no idea what it will be but it better be good).
Faith is bullshit. Faith means not wanting to understand logic and reason.
If you want to be spiritual, go for it. Love your neighbor, treat others as you want to be treated, etc.
I could go on but I hope you get the idea.

[orthoclad]

11. Yes, I was shooting for

pointing out the good as well as the harmful. The priest who told me to read Rachel Carson, e.g.

And even though I don't believe in faith, it was the innocent faith of a child that led me to that communion experience.

It's complicated.

[OAITW r.2.0]

6. It took 8 years of Jesuit education to turn me into a life-long agnostic.

[brewens]

7. It's okay live like shit if everything is roses and cake after you die. I always thought that was

the real message to an awful lot of people throughout history. Convenient if you're the ruling class exploiting people.

[orthoclad]

10. The old pie-in-the-sky

The ruling class LOVES them some faith.

[LakeArenal]

9. I had a boss ask me why should I have Christmas off if I don't believe ...

I said, You won’t give me the Solstice off to celebrate something real: and tho I don’t believe in Jebus, I do believe in fellowship and good will to all.

[calimary]

12. Yeah, I sure get that.

Growing up in Catholic school, you got it from morning through lunch all the way to afternoon dismissal. Nuns and everything, and once a week Father Flanagan came over from the church across the street to conduct that day’s religion class.

Once I got to high school, also Catholic, things were a little more relaxed and we even had a class in comparative religions. A revelation! Looking back, I think that’s when I started “going independent”.

There was a point when I realized I could talk to God whenever I wanted to, and use my own words, and pull from my own thoughts, and it didn’t have to be in any formalized church setting. Truly liberating!

It’s been a journey alright.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

13. I was raised very conservative Catholic

and went to a high school seminary. Came out atheist.

But I had very different experiences than you (and others on this thread). The priests and nuns I got to know at the seminary were genuinely good people. I know I probably got lucky in that regard, but felt it was worth saying.

[orthoclad]

19. They're just people

Some good, some damaged*. I took care to mention that priest who showed me Rachel carson's work, and who discussed evolution reasonably.

*Some VERY damaged. Look at all the dioceses which are declaring bankruptcy over clerical pederasty. There's a thread about it here somewhere. And look at all the fascist Opus Dei stuff.

[Miguelito Loveless]

15. I had a very similar journey,

growing up the son of an Irish Catholic. Took me until my late 20s to get free, and my early 40s to declare as atheist out loud. I would very much like all the time I wasted on religion back.

[old as dirt]

16. Life long atheist here, but...

Last edited Tue Mar 21, 2023, 01:24 PM - Edit history (2)

...my wife comes from a Catholic culture, going back centuries. The violin is very important in her religion.

I've never seen a soul

Here's a webinar by the Anthropologist Paloma Muñoz, whose PhD dissertation is titled Las Almas de los Violines 'Negros' (The Souls of the 'Black' Violins).

She has a drawing of a soul in this webinar video. (Audio-generated closed captions in the language of your choice.)

Conferencia Los violines negros caucanos - XII SIJI

"Gracias a diós y nuestro señor salvador, fue el diablo el que me enseñó a tocar violin."

"Thanks to God and our Lord Savior, it was the devil who taught me to play the violin"

Felipe Ibarra, violinista

(page 130)

Las Almas de los Violines 'Negros' (PDF)

Paloma Muñoz

[Karadeniz]

20. Sounds like you'd enjoy the reincarnation book by Ian Stevenson... the universality of the

survival of Mind after death. ( Based on my own experience, I see Mind as soul energy plus brain energy.) Soul survival transcends religion, nationality.

[orthoclad]

21. That would require faith

I like the Buddhist concept, it's logical in its own way, but I see no evidence for it.

[Karadeniz]

22. No, not faith. Stevenson follows up claims, tests for accuracy.