A serious question about how to practice Christianity.

[DetlefK]

It was in school, during the religion-course. The teacher had drawn a diagram on the chalkboard, showing different groups of Christians and explaining which groups are better than the others:
* those who get baptized and then never return to christian faith
* those who do good deeds
* those who go to mass
And so forth.

The teacher tried to explain to us that Christians who go to mass but don't do good deeds are better Christians than those who do good deeds but don't go to mass. That was the very moment I took my first step towards atheism.



My question to you: Which Christians are closer to God, truer in their beliefs and closer to the spirit of Jesus Christ?

1. Those who take part in prayers to the Lord, who take part in the transsubstantation of wine and bread into Jesus Christ's blood and flesh.
But who at the same time do not do unto others as they want done unto themselves. Who do not go to the meek and the poor and the outcasts. Who do not sacrifice their time and possessions for charity to help others as Jesus did.

2. Those who do unto others as they want done unto themselves. Who do go to the meek and the poor and the outcasts. Who do sacrifice their time and possessions for charity to help others as Jesus did.
But who do not take part in prayers to the Lord. Who do not take part in the transsubstantation of wine and bread into Jesus Christ's blood and flesh.

What counts more: Doing good deeds or adhering to the holy rituals, procedures and tenets of Christianity?

Acting without praying or praying without acting?

[njhoneybadger]

1. I don't know but the idea of drinking blood and eating flesh is really out there

[Major Nikon]

3. No more so than worshipping a zombie

[Major Nikon]

2. At its core organized religion is a business

If people aren’t giving them money, then business is bad. When business is bad, one of their typical strategies is to shame people into compliance.

[Pendrench]

4. Hi DetlefK - Thank you for posting this interesting question.

I can only answer for myself (as a life-long, practicing Catholic), but I would say #2.

To me, being a Christian simply means that one believes in the divinity of Christ - and that alone does not make me or any other Christian better than anyone else. In fact, I would argue that if there is a god, she/he/they/it does not care what we believe or if we don't believe at all...but rather how we care about each other, especially those most in need.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

Thank you again for posting this.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

[DetlefK]

6. But how can I commune with God if I don't pray and don't take part in the rituals?

Prayers exist for a reason! These occult rituals exist in the Christian tradition for a reason! To establish a connection between us and God. How can we simply ignore them?

[Pendrench]

9. Hi DetlefK - thank you for responding to my post.

These are just my thoughts/opinions, but while it may be true that these occult rituals exist to establish a connection between Christians (like myself) and god...I don't believe that these are the only means to establish a connection.

By loving and caring for others (especially those in most need) I believe that we establish a connection to god.
By being good stewards of the Earth, we establish a connection to god.

To me, saying prayers by rote has less meaning than someone saying a simple "Thank you" to a person who has helped them, just as a quiet, sincere whisper of "Please help me" can be a very powerful prayer.

In other words, one doesn't have to ignore occult rituals or established prayers (such as the Our Father or the Rosary) if they find these prayers and rituals helpful in connecting to the god they believe in. But by no means do I think that Christians in general or Catholics in particular have an exclusive way to connect with god.

I hope that makes sense - I apologize if I was unclear or did not answer your questions.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

[BlueTexasMan]

7. Golden rule

Look at the question with an eye toward sustainability. Which approach is best for the planet? Going through the routine of "practicing" or application of the golden rule.

[harumph]

5. Being a Christian is being a "follower" of Christ.

In other words, when he says:

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ (Matthew 25:34–40 ESV)

And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”


"Sola fide" DOES NOT MEAN WHAT MANY CHRISTIANS TAKE IT TO MEAN. It has a compound meaning: (1) ultimately, acknowledging God is sovereign, and (2) if you do works out of love for your neighbor (fellow human being), you are exemplifying faith - you are in effect following Christ.


Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Many Protestants and to a lesser degree Catholics think Christianity means "declaring JC as your personal savior." as if by saying those magic words - it's a get out of jail free card. IMO, this is a gross misinterpretation, however prevalent.


Just my two cents.

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. "Just my two cents"

Exactly.

We don't have a propositional criteria by which to determine the correct practice of Christianity. Regardless of what the Bible says—or rather, seems to say to you—what most self-identifying Christians profess to believe, and what most self-identifying Christians actually do are more reliable determinants of what is or is not "Christian".

[Major Nikon]

21. Seems to be an identifying factor to exclude other Christians from the club

Seems like every Christian you run into points to others who they claim aren’t real Christians. With a bible verse for everything it makes you wonder how anyone can make the cut.

[guillaumeb]

15. Well said.

And many feel that any amount of bad actions are excused by asking forgiveness.

But when Jesus asked who was without sin, He also counselled the sinner to go and sin no more. It is forgiveness, and change for the better.

[yonder]

10. Golden rule, baby! Religion or not.

[3catwoman3]

26. Exactly. Never took my kids to church.

We talked a lot about The Golden Rule and living a useful life.

If everyone followed The Golden Rule, we wouldn't really need any others - pretty much covers everything.

[Nitram]

11. The right wing conception of Christianity is that blind faith is better than good deeds.

[guillaumeb]

12. Prayer, and ritual, exist to bring people together.

And words without corresponding actions are weak.

[Voltaire2]

13. so religion has nothing to do with gods?

It is just a way 'to bring people together'?

[guillaumeb]

14. This is the Religion Group.

So one may safely assume that theism is one factor. But prayer, and other group rituals, provide community and solidarity.

[Voltaire2]

16. so again, is that their primary function?

[guillaumeb]

17. The primary function of prayer is an affirmation of faith.

But praying in a group provides social benefits.

[Voltaire2]

18. So you misspoke when you wrote "Prayer, and ritual, exist to bring people together."

got it. It is good to see you admit your mistakes.

[guillaumeb]

19. So you misread when you read my posts.

Not good when dialogue is the presumed goal.

[Voltaire2]

22. No your initial post was quite clear.

However I myself screwed up when I thought your subsequent revision was an admission that you recognized your error.

[guillaumeb]

23. My posts are consistent.

And I said:

12. Prayer, and ritual, exist to bring people together.

And words without corresponding actions are weak.


14. This is the Religion Group.

So one may safely assume that theism is one factor. But prayer, and other group rituals, provide community and solidarity


17. The primary function of prayer is an affirmation of faith.

But praying in a group provides social benefits

Your mistake was in confusing the words primary and sole.

The only error was yours in assuming #17 referred to one exclusive function in spite of my clear statement that prayer has more than one function.

[uriel1972]

20. Well Jesus said those who promise but don't deliver...

Are better than those who deliver but don't promise... It's in the Bible, can't remember actual verse, but it's a parable.
Sooooooooo... there you go question answered.

[Bretton Garcia]

24. Maybe the Good Samaritan?

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

25. Christian Christ, not old testament, not disciples

Transmogrification.

and Jesus Wept.

[RockRaven]

27. Which of my neighbors is closer to the invisible dragon in my garage, the guy who

leaves raw beef steaks at the end of my driveway every Wednesday afternoon, or the guy who owns an iguana which he keeps in a glass terrarium in his bedroom?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

28. Clearly the emphasis on going to mass

tells me that you were being raised Catholic. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong there, but you (and anyone else reading this or thinking about this issue) needs to understand what's going on here.

What were you taught about good people who were never baptized?

I was raised Catholic, and when it was explained to me that no matter how good a person was, if they'd never accepted Jesus Christ and all that stuff, they could never possibly go to heaven, I knew there was something fundamentally wrong.

Which is why I think that all religion is pure crap. Even the most "liberal" of Christian religions (and I'm not at all prepared to deal with other religions in this discussion) come down to the base of "Our belief is the correct one." Essentially they all say that other beliefs are wrong. There are lots of nuances and parsing of stuff, but in the end, "Our belief is the correct one" wins out.

What's wrong with other beliefs, how other beliefs shake out, what God might think of other beliefs, how far away from *our* core beliefs can one stray, and so on and so forth are NEVER dealt with. Just, "Our belief is the correct one."

This is only a slice of why I have so little respect for conventional religion. Why I have no patience with any belief system. Why arguments about faith vs works mean zero to me. Why nothing at all can convince me that your specific beliefs are the One True Belief.

Perhaps the basic question you should all be asking yourself is this: Why would God give a flying fuck about what you believe, how you worship it (him if you insist on a gendered pronoun) or why it (he) should ever get involved in your personal life?

Do you have any clue how truly vast the Universe is? Do a bit of research and come back here.

[mahina]

29. I'll take door #2

And my church agrees.